Politics

[irishpat183]

fair enough, good points. economists have always studied economic opportunity by measuring mobility, the degree to which advantaged economic position is passed on from one generation to the next. in fact it was this literature that initially led politicians to claim that the US had more opportunity than any other country in the world. the problem was that the initial data and methods used to study mobility were gradually improved upon, and the empirical story no longer matched with the narrative of the US as a land of opportunity. When the empirical story changed the discourse did not change.

But if you want to use alternative criteria to define what you mean by opportunity then that's legitimate. by the standard definitions used in the economics literature the US has less opportunity than virtually every other developed nation, and has for a long time.

Name them.

Who are these "economists"....I'm curious.

Let me guess? The psudeo-economist, Paul Krugman?

 

[autry_denson]

Name them.

Who are these "economists"....I'm curious.

Let me guess? The psudeo-economist, Paul Krugman?

honestly man, you come across like an absolute idiot when you angrily dismiss stuff before taking a second to look into it.

ok, i'll name some who are among those who have done or are now doing the best work on economic mobility: gary becker (produced the first widespread estimates, subsequently found to be WAY off), gary solon, bhashkar mazumder, tim smeeding, miles corak. these are people who study things, using data. they do real research, and they make arguments. there is a world outside of your bubble. start reading.

 

[chicago51]

honestly man, you come across like an absolute idiot when you angrily dismiss stuff before taking a second to look into it.

ok, i'll name some who are among those who have done or are now doing the best work on economic mobility: gary becker (produced the first widespread estimates, subsequently found to be WAY off), gary solon, bhashkar mazumder, tim smeeding, miles corak. these are people who study things, using data. they do real research, and they make arguments. there is a world outside of your bubble. start reading.

reps

 

[chicago51]

This is just one example but it gives a good feel for the impact that child hunger which is a direct function of family income may have on grades.

This school Roll Hill was somehow able to instill a 365 day a year program for hungry kids. In three years the reading scores improved dramatically.

Sure there certainly could have been other factors involved. Maybe there was some changes in the teaching and school administrative staff. The point is that the same low income community is now doing much better in terms reading scores at least since a food program started.

Supporting our Community: Childhood Food Solutions - GBD Healthy Times Community News & Events

 

[Black Irish]

I'm going to hazard a guess that (upward) economic mobility may be more difficult to achieve in the USA versus other countries because our baseline is so high, relatively speaking.

As others have pointed out here, you can have a job, a roof over your head, own a car, computer, and television and still be considered poor in America. Compare that to the person who lives in a hovel in the third world with no indoor plumbing. That person is in a position to make much bigger economic strides if circumstances permit, hence a better shot at upward mobility.

 

[irishpat183]

I'm going to hazard a guess that (upward) economic mobility may be more difficult to achieve in the USA versus other countries because our baseline is so high, relatively speaking.

As others have pointed out here, you can have a job, a roof over your head, own a car, computer, and television and still be considered poor in America. Compare that to the person who lives in a hovel in the third world with no indoor plumbing. That person is in a position to make much bigger economic strides if circumstances permit, hence a better shot at upward mobility.

Exactly.

But it's not about what you have to them....it's about what the other guy has and how you can obtain it.

 

[irishpat183]

honestly man, you come across like an absolute idiot when you angrily dismiss stuff before taking a second to look into it.

ok, i'll name some who are among those who have done or are now doing the best work on economic mobility: gary becker (produced the first widespread estimates, subsequently found to be WAY off), gary solon, bhashkar mazumder, tim smeeding, miles corak. these are people who study things, using data. they do real research, and they make arguments. there is a world outside of your bubble. start reading.

Because anyone outta Chicago has a leg to stand on in economics......Come on! Miles Corak is linked to Occupy Wall street. How can these guys be considered unbiased at all??


And I asked, I didn't dismiss.


Who says I don't read? I personally follow the likes of Guy Sorman and Edward Prescott.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Stop comparing upward mobility to places like Uganda. The United States doesn't have a great score among other members of the western world! There are two main reasons, in my opinion, why this is the case: overbearing corporatism and terrible public schools. You can break this down further:

overbearing corporatism = massive federal government + horrendous lobbying laws

horrible public schools = massive social flaws + teachers unions + uneven tax laws

And so on and so on. Many of those things conservatives normally want to fix. What's the hold up now?

 

[GowerND11]

Stop comparing upward mobility to places like Uganda. The United States doesn't have a great score among other members of the western world! There are two main reasons, in my opinion, why this is the case: overbearing corporatism and terrible public schools. You can break this down further:

overbearing corporatism = massive federal government + horrendous lobbying laws

horrible public schools = massive social flaws + teachers unions + uneven tax laws + Federal Government intervention (NCLB and stanadardized testing)

And so on and so on. Many of those things conservatives normally want to fix. What's the hold up now?

I added one for the schools.

 

[DSully1995]

Stop comparing upward mobility to places like Uganda. The United States doesn't have a great score among other members of the western world! There are two main reasons, in my opinion, why this is the case: overbearing corporatism and terrible public schools. You can break this down further:

overbearing corporatism = massive federal government + horrendous lobbying laws

horrible public schools = massive social flaws + teachers unions + uneven tax laws

And so on and so on. Many of those things conservatives normally want to fix. What's the hold up now?

I think its very sad that americans need their parents support through school, here in canada you can manage without much parental (financial) support where in the US it seems as tho your fate is kinda dictated by your parents

 

[chicago51]

Who could have foreseen this.

By rewarding schools and giving more money based test scores. School in Atlanta decide to cheat on test scores.

Did High-Stakes Testing Cause the Atlanta Schools Cheating Scandal? - Atlantic Mobile

 

[irishpat183]

I think its very sad that americans need their parents support through school, here in canada you can manage without much parental (financial) support where in the US it seems as tho your fate is kinda dictated by your parents

Your parents are helping you up there....it's called higher taxes and more government.


Just because mom and dad aren't handing you checks...doesn't mean they're not supporting you

 

[irishpat183]

Who could have foreseen this.

By rewarding schools and giving more money based test scores. School in Atlanta decide to cheat on test scores.

Did High-Stakes Testing Cause the Atlanta Schools Cheating Scandal? - Atlantic Mobile

We all did.

Anything that government and unions touch, turns to ****

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

We all did.

Anything that government and unions touch, turns to ****

Teachers' unions are good for teachers, not for students.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Teachers' unions are good for teachers other than the really good ones, not for students.

Fixed.

 

[irishpat183]

Devastating Job Numbers Undermine Rationale for ‘Immigration Reform’ | Stand With Arizona


Awesome news! Wonder how they spin this...

 

[chicago51]

Devastating Job Numbers Undermine Rationale for ‘Immigration Reform’ | Stand With Arizona


Awesome news! Wonder how they spin this...

It is kinda of funny how people are always looking for something to blame.

Some blaming the sequester but most of the sequester jobs cuts actually started this month so they didn't show up in the March report.

Personally I think the pay roll tax holliday ending is hurting things a bit because it is reducing disposable income and thus reducing demand which is the real job creator.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QPKKQnijnsM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Irish Houstonian]

FYI, every dollar you have is continually losing value, and without significant raises your salaries will be worth less and less each year.

Thanks Ben.

 

[phgreek]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QPKKQnijnsM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Pretty good vid...

First, a part of this distribution is attributable to people who've weighed the amount of work they are willing to put in to any endeavor against the reward. ie...I'll work 40 hours per week at a job where I'm not the boss, and I'm happy with what that brings.

I certainly believe there are systematic attempts by those with wealth to manipulate the system....don't get me wrong, when folks engage in manipulation of markets, or use political clout to insulate themselves from poor business decisions...well, that activity is NOT what a free market system is about...and folks who engage need to get wiped out.

Just don't see how folks can look at wealth divorced from what people did/sacrificed to build it, and assume they should get some.

Cleary this vid was representing common folks...not those ailing, children, or elderly, so it is with those considerations I ask...Who, exactly, "deserves" more than what someone is willing to pay for their skill (or lack thereof), and why do they deserve it? Why is it if someone's ancestry contained those willing to make sacrifices to generate wealth, they are not deserving of their wealth and someone else is entitled to some of it? If you are free to choose a career, why is it anyone's job to ensure you a standard of living?

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QPKKQnijnsM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Thank you for sharing.

 

[Black Irish]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QPKKQnijnsM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

There are interesting statistics in that presentation and it's obvious that the creator thinks that the current state of things is not right. But he provides no context as to why it's not right. To me he's just saying "look how skewed these numbers are, that's bad." Okay, why is it bad? Why is it bad that the average CEO makes 380 times what his average employee makes? What is the actual negative impact on us and our economy? Sure, people on the bottom are struggling and I'd like to see that corrected, but where's the clear line between the top 1% holding a ton of wealth and the bottom being poor? It smacks of zero sum economics; an increase here automatically means a decrease somewhere else. That's where this wealth inequality rhetoric gets fuzzy for me. There's a lot of loose correlation but no one is establishing clear causation, if there is any.

 

[EddytoNow]

Teachers' unions are good for teachers, not for students.

Yep, the average beginning salary for a teacher is roughly $30,000 per year. Republican governors have made sure that teachers that stay in the profession will still be making that after 10, 20, 30 years. Teachers will be unable to buy a home and support a family, let alone retire. Teaching will become a second income for the family, because no one will be able to live on a teacher's salary if they intend to have children and raise a family.

After you deduct $3000 for contributions to retirement programs, $5000 for health insurance, and $8,000 - $12,000 for various taxes, the beginning teacher gets to take home less than $20,000 per year.

Employees, who work full-time at fast food restaurants, will be earning more than teachers. If teachers were really out for themselves they sure wouldn't enter the teaching profession. Also, spare me the **** about teachers having summers off. They are required to continue getting graduate credit (at their own expense) and most teachers attend classes in the summer to keep their teaching credentials up-to-date.

I guess we are longing for the days when only single women could teach. Of course, someone in the community will have to provide room and board for the teachers, since they won't be able to afford a home and pay utilities.

Obviously, I'm a teacher. Those who think teachers are getting rich should look around. At best, teachers live in middle class neighborhoods, and then only if they have two incomes. They certainly aren't living there on a single teacher's salary. They are the most underpaid people with Master's degrees plus in the country.

Obviously, all they care about is keeping the lavish lifestyle that $30,000 per year provides.

 

[DSully1995]

Teachers do get too much in canada nearly 100k for the experienced, with the amount of free time availbale, the per hour is insane

 

[Bluto]

There are interesting statistics in that presentation and it's obvious that the creator thinks that the current state of things is not right. But he provides no context as to why it's not right. To me he's just saying "look how skewed these numbers are, that's bad." Okay, why is it bad? Why is it bad that the average CEO makes 380 times what his average employee makes? What is the actual negative impact on us and our economy? Sure, people on the bottom are struggling and I'd like to see that corrected, but where's the clear line between the top 1% holding a ton of wealth and the bottom being poor? It smacks of zero sum economics; an increase here automatically means a decrease somewhere else. That's where this wealth inequality rhetoric gets fuzzy for me. There's a lot of loose correlation but no one is establishing clear causation, if there is any.

The reason this is bad is because it allows said individuals and or entities to accumulate insane ammounts of power and influence that goes hand and hand with accumulating that much wealth. This in turn allows these individuals and or entities to distort and manipulate not only markets in their favor but the political process and social institutions as well and it becomes a self reinforcing feedback loop. This is critical and something that nobody seems to want to talk about. Can all you Econ folks please start placing such pronouncements into some sort of social and historic context? Thanks.

 

[DSully1995]

The reason this is bad is because it allows said individuals and or entities to accumulate insane ammounts of power and influence that goes hand and hand with accumulating that much wealth. This in turn allows these individuals and or entities to distort and manipulate not only markets in their favor but the political process and social institutions as well and it becomes a self reinforcing feedback loop. This is critical and something that nobody seems to want to talk about. Can all you Econ folks please start placing such pronouncements into some sort of social and historic context? Thanks.

Bill Gates. Guy was doing uncompetitive behaviour for years but then bought off everyone by donating to charity, not saying hes a bad person, but justice was not served.

 

[Bluto]

Bill Gates. Guy was doing uncompetitive behaviour for years but then bought off everyone by donating to charity, not saying hes a bad person, but justice was not served.

Exactly. Microsoft along with most of the large financial institutions in this country should have been "broken up" a long time ago. Is anyone old enough to remember when the "Bells" were broken up? That's the last time I remember this type of action being taken against any business entity in this country.

Don't even get me started on how perverse the whole idea of 501 C3's has become.

 

[DSully1995]

Exactly. Microsoft along with most of the large financial institutions in this country should have been "broken up" a long time ago. Is anyone old enough to remember when the "Bells" were broken up? That's the last time I remember this type of action being taken against any business entity in this country.

Don't even get me started on how perverse the whole idea of 501 C3's has become.

Standard oil is the biggest one ive ever heard of. Doubt it would happen today

 

[GoIrish41]

Teachers do get too much in canada nearly 100k for the experienced, with the amount of free time availbale, the per hour is insane

Why is that too much? If teachers in Canada are well compensated, it tells me that Canada has its priorities right. They value education and believe the role of the teacher is important. The compensation of most teachers in the United States shows that we don't have our priorities right. I hear people point out all the time that our rankings in test scores in science and math are falling behind other countries, but that is to be expected if we will not make a more serious investment in our teachers. I wish our teachers were compensated as well as yours are.

 

[phgreek]

The reason this is bad is because it allows said individuals and or entities to accumulate insane ammounts of power and influence that goes hand and hand with accumulating that much wealth. This in turn allows these individuals and or entities to distort and manipulate not only markets in their favor but the political process and social institutions as well and it becomes a self reinforcing feedback loop. This is critical and something that nobody seems to want to talk about. Can all you Econ folks please start placing such pronouncements into some sort of social and historic context? Thanks.

ah so wielding undue Power and influence are the problems...

so the solution is to attack the mechanism(s) of wealth accumulation you assume enables that activity...

This is perfect logic for bringing down organized crime...and it has worked well.

Not sure that logic works for dealing with an entire system that contains likely more honest folks than dishonest.

Seems to me OWS had some inkling of what you identify was the problem, and miraculously, while unorganized, and unable to clearly articulate it...they had a real sense of it. Its when leaders used the movement to vilify rich folks in general we run headlong into stupidity of today's rhetoric.