Politics

[Polish Leppy 22]

As the most powerful and most wealthy nation in the world. I tend to think we should lead by example. Besides green energy can create jobs.

Have you been in a coma for the past 4 years? Following what model? Solyndra? Are you Van Jones?

 

[BobD]

Stop changing the subject. I'm not championing Pennsylvania as a blueprint for perfection. The basis of the article I posted was the huge numbers of people leaving California for Texas and the reasons why.

So your unemployment went down to 9.8%, is highest in the country, and you're bragging? You're delusional. if your leftist utopia were coming to fruition as you would think, there'd be a second version of the huge migration west, uneployment would be at 3-5%, etc. You might as well tell us all that the sky is green and the grass is blue out there, too.

College kids are irrelevant in this discussion. They aren't buying houses and working in the state full time and paying taxes. But I don't blame them for going to school there at all. It's beautiful.

Not trying to change the subject. I'm trying politely to say you don't know what you're talking about unless your only point is a change in demographics. We are experiencing a shift that will cost us some citizen's in pure numbers, but what you need to realize is low tech is moving out, high tech and the future is moving in. That "mass migration" you speak of is insignificant in the long run. California has no dream of being an industrial powerhouse.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

literally lmao

+1

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Not trying to change the subject. I'm trying politely to say you don't know what you're talking about unless your only point is a change in demographics. We are experiencing a shift that will cost us some citizen's in pure numbers, but what you need to realize is low tech is moving out, high tech and the future is moving in. That "mass migration" you speak of is insignificant in the long run. California has no dream of being an industrial powerhouse.

At the end of the day, it's your state and you can run it however you want.

I would do it differently, personally, but that's just a matter of taste -- some people just think cucumbers taste better pickled.

 

[chicago51]

Wanted to refute some minimum wage killing jobs criticism I got yesterday.

Raising the minumum wage leading to job loss is a myth.

The Job Loss Myth | Raise The Minimum Wage

Elizabeth Parisian: Some Employers and Republicans Want to Lower the Minimum Wage -- Here's Why They're Completely Out of Touch

In fact minumum wage is a stimulus for the economy.

Minimum Wage as Economic Stimulus | Raise The Minimum Wage

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Not trying to change the subject. I'm trying politely to say you don't know what you're talking about unless your only point is a change in demographics. We are experiencing a shift that will cost us some citizen's in pure numbers, but what you need to realize is low tech is moving out, high tech and the future is moving in. That "mass migration" you speak of is insignificant in the long run. California has no dream of being an industrial powerhouse.

OK. Have it as you will. Elections have consequences and I see nothing but Greece in that state's not so far off future. Good luck.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Wanted to refute some minimum wage killing jobs criticism I got yesterday.

Raising the minumum wage leading to job loss is a myth.

The Job Loss Myth | Raise The Minimum Wage

Elizabeth Parisian: Some Employers and Republicans Want to Lower the Minimum Wage -- Here's Why They're Completely Out of Touch

In fact minumum wage is a stimulus for the economy.

Minimum Wage as Economic Stimulus | Raise The Minimum Wage

That criticism was well deserved for this obvious reason: if the minimum wage is raised, the cost will trickle to the consumer, meaning inflation and higher prices. Why stop at $9 an hour? Why not $20? Why not $25? That would be "fair."

 

[Ndaccountant]

Wanted to refute some minimum wage killing jobs criticism I got yesterday.

Raising the minumum wage leading to job loss is a myth.

The Job Loss Myth | Raise The Minimum Wage

Elizabeth Parisian: Some Employers and Republicans Want to Lower the Minimum Wage -- Here's Why They're Completely Out of Touch

In fact minumum wage is a stimulus for the economy.

Minimum Wage as Economic Stimulus | Raise The Minimum Wage

Well, there are numerous other research papers that says it does impact jobs. I am sure we could go back and forth all day.

But, the jobs issue is a distractor. The real issue is whether or not it has an impact on poverty.

According to EPI -

"This study by economists Richard Vedder and Lowell Gallaway shows convincingly that minimum wages, because of inefficient targeting of the poor and unintended adverse consequences on employment and earnings, are ineffective as an antipoverty device. The report relies on an impressive array of empirical evidence showing that, however one views the data, in the United States, state and federal minimum wages have not reduced poverty. "

(EPI research has quantified the impact of new labor costs on job creation, explored the connection between entry-level employment and welfare reform, and analyzed the demographic distribution of mandated benefits. EPI sponsors nonpartisan research which is conducted by independent economists at major universities around the country.)


Does the Minimum Wage Reduce Poverty? | EPI Study

 

[DSully1995]

Wanted to refute some minimum wage killing jobs criticism I got yesterday.

Raising the minumum wage leading to job loss is a myth.

The Job Loss Myth | Raise The Minimum Wage

Elizabeth Parisian: Some Employers and Republicans Want to Lower the Minimum Wage -- Here's Why They're Completely Out of Touch

In fact minumum wage is a stimulus for the economy.

Minimum Wage as Economic Stimulus | Raise The Minimum Wage

I read most of both articles on the minimum wage, the strongest argument that they make is that this will put more money in the hands of those with min.wage jobs, who they purchase, which would be great. However I didnt see anything relating to how raising it would affect employment, which is the main concern, when a wage goes above an employees utility, they are losing money off of that employee.

Its a terrible thing to say but, are the minimum wage earners justified in earning 9 dollars? Think about it......No, or else the market would have rewarded their skills with a 9 dollar pay. The reality is you help the most of the employed but pull the rug of the bottom of the bucket, who then arent a worthwhile investment for anyone,minimum wage a major reason for unemployment in the first place.


Welcome to MacroEcon 101 yall

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Funny how sites like "raisetheminimumwage.org" have an uncanny ability to site "studies" favoring their own cause.

 

[chicago51]

That criticism was well deserved for this obvious reason: if the minimum wage is raised, the cost will trickle to the consumer, meaning inflation and higher prices. Why stop at $9 an hour? Why not $20? Why not $25? That would be "fair."

Well the idea is that if you are working hard you should not be in poverty. $9.00 an hour does not quite do that but it is a start. I would argue that their is no reason to raise once you get to the poverty line.

Now the cost issue:

Putting aside to the fact that cost is a balance between profit and demand so rasing prices too much would not be profitable to businesses. I do acknowledge prices will go up some.

What you are essentially arguing for by wanting to keep low wages is to be like China (yes communist China) so we can sell our stuff really cheap. So you are saying we should racing to the bottom lowest wages for lowest cost. I would argue that we should be racing to the top. I say if we are earning more we can afford to pay more.

 

[chicago51]

I read most of both articles on the minimum wage, the strongest argument that they make is that this will put more money in the hands of those with min.wage jobs, who they purchase, which would be great. However I didnt see anything relating to how raising it would affect employment, which is the main concern, when a wage goes above an employees utility, they are losing money off of that employee.

Its a terrible thing to say but, are the minimum wage earners justified in earning 9 dollars? Think about it......No, or else the market would have rewarded their skills with a 9 dollar pay. The reality is you help the most of the employed but pull the rug of the bottom of the bucket, who then arent a worthwhile investment for anyone,minimum wage a major reason for unemployment in the first place.


Welcome to MacroEcon 101 yall

Minimum Wage Impacts on Employment: A Look at Indiana, Illinois, and Surrounding Midwestern States

When Illinois and Indiana raised their minimum wages and experienced no significant change in unemployment rates.

 

[DSully1995]

Well the idea is that if you are working hard you should not be in poverty. $9.00 an hour does not quite do that but it is a start. I would argue that their is no reason to raise once you get to the poverty line.

Now the cost issue:

Putting aside to the fact that cost is a balance between profit and demand so rasing the cost too much would not be profitable to businesses.

What you essentially are arguing for by wanting to keep low wages is to be like China (yes communist China) so we can sell our stuff really cheap. So you are saying we should racing to the bottom lowest wages for lowest cost. I would argue that we should be racing to the top. I say if we are earning more we can afford to pay more.

Please respond to my post above but thats not the point, the point of the right is to have an economy strong enough so that the marketplace raises the wage, case and point: Here in alberta the min wage is like 9 dollars or something, but companies gladly pay more and I dont know a single person who works for minimum wage, its the business that have raised above 10

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Minimum Wage Impacts on Employment: A Look at Indiana, Illinois, and Surrounding Midwestern States

When Illinois and Indiana raised their minimum wages and experienced no significant change in unemployment rates.

You have to remember that the unemployment effect on raising the minimum wage is going to be small, because only 5% of all jobs are minimum wage to begin with.

So if you've raised the min. wage such that 5% of the min. wage workforce gets laid-off, you're still only talking about a 0.25% hit on the total unemployment rate.

 

[chicago51]

Please respond to my post above but thats not the point, the point of the right is to have an economy strong enough so that the marketplace raises the wage, case and point: Here in alberta the min wage is like 9 dollars or something, but companies gladly pay more and I dont know a single person who works for minimum wage, its the business that have raised above 10

The United States is the richest country in the world and the markets are not raising the low income wages to the level of cost of living. If our minimum wage from 1960 was adjusted to cost of living it would be about $10.50 an hour not $7.25.

Is it possible that the higher tax rates in Canada cause businesses to say "maybe instead of paying the governement so much I'll pay my workers a bit more"?

 

[Buster Bluth]

The United States is the richest country in the world and the markets are not raising the low income wages to the level of cost of living. If our minimum wage from 1960 was adjusted to cost of living it would be about $10.50 an hour not $7.25.

And if we used the minimum wage from 1920....

It's a weird argument, the situation is much, much different than in 1960.

Is it possible that the higher tax rates in Canada cause businesses to say "maybe instead of paying the governement so much I'll pay my workers a bit more"?

Perhaps. I think it's morally irresponsible for a corporation like Walmart to pay their employees so little that they (the employees) receive $2.6bil in taxpayer dollars while the corporation profits $15bil. That is a transfer of wealth to the rich, not from the rich.

For the sake of the argument, at least in Ohio, food system employees are exempt from the minimum wage. People like migrant workers are unaffected by this.

That said, raising the minimum wage can have bad consequences for many places. Just because you're not "fired" per se doesn't mean there is no effect. What about reduction in overtime? Instead of $7.25/hr x 40 and say $10.88/hr x 15 is $453.13. If a place cuts back on overtime $9.00/hr x 40 is $360. And these people don't work forty hours, Walmart's "full time" is 36.

 

[Bluto]

So I tried finding some credible sources to support the "mass exodus" from California theory. Could not find any for people and or businesses. I found a few reports and op eds from Fox News and the OC Register, but they were pretty much garbage.

I'm aware of one person who left for Texas, he's a GOP political consultant. Lol.

If you think the state is a "liberal" utopia you've obviously never been to Bakersfield. Also, doesn't Mitt Romney live in San Diego? I'm sure he'd much rather live in Waco staring at dust devils and tumble weeds.

 

[DSully1995]

The United States is the richest country in the world and the markets are not raising the low income wages to the level of cost of living. If our minimum wage from 1960 was adjusted to cost of living it would be about $10.50 an hour not $7.25.

Is it possible that the higher tax rates in Canada cause businesses to say "maybe instead of paying the governement so much I'll pay my workers a bit more"?

1. Great article there, skimmed over it but its definately surprising for something economist hold as fact

2.Well our case in alberta is very different from lets the maritime provinces, they have wak economies and high unemployment and higher minimum wages for the most part, and here in alberta its lower but we have benefited immensely from oil sands. but in regards to taxes thatd be the corporate tax which is 15% (comparable to US ----> after your countless deductions), so i dont think that factors in.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

...Is it possible that the higher tax rates in Canada cause businesses to say "maybe instead of paying the governement so much I'll pay my workers a bit more"?

It's possible, seeing as how Canada has a lower corporate tax rate than the U.S., and has been steadily lowering it more since about 2008.

The economic analysis to compare the paying taxes indicators with gross domestic product and foreign direct investment suggests that while higher business taxation can be linked to slower economic growth and international investment, reducing the administrative burden and complexity of the tax system can potentially be linked to a greater change in overall growth," the report states

Canadian business tax rate among world's lowest - Business - CBC News

 

[Bluto]

It's possible, seeing as how Canada has a lower corporate tax rate than the U.S., and has been steadily lowering it more since about 2008.



Canadian business tax rate among world's lowest - Business - CBC News

But, but aren't they a bunch of dirty socialists with their free healthcare and the like!

As for the minnumum wage, I think raising it willy nilly does have a huge negative impact on small businesses due to economies of scale. Mom and pop operations can't abosorb these spikes that cause increases in paying into unemployment insurance ect... as easily as chains.

I dont think someone should realisticly expect to "make a living and raise a family" washing dishes. I would much rather see free universal education so people could move out of minimum wage type jobs.

 

[RallySonsOfND]

Minimum wage jobs are not for living off of.


If you stay on a minimum wage job your entire life, you have more serious problems than trying to raise a family on it.

 

[GoIrish41]

If California was a country it would be the 8th or 9th largest economy in the world and approx. the 30th largest in population. Over 12 percent of all Americans live here because it sucks.

There are many beautiful places in the USA, California doesn't lead by accident.
The Beverley Hillbillies didn't move to Texas when they struck it rich.

So they loaded up the truck and moved to Fort Worth ... doesn't have the same ring to it.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Minimum wage jobs are not for living off of.


If you stay on a minimum wage job your entire life, you have more serious problems than trying to raise a family on it.

Not to mention that data clearly shows it does nothing to combat poverty. See most previous post.

 

[chicago51]

It's possible, seeing as how Canada has a lower corporate tax rate than the U.S., and has been steadily lowering it more since about 2008.



Canadian business tax rate among world's lowest - Business - CBC News

Canada actual corporate tax rate is lower. You have to take into account that Canada does not have all the deductions the US tax system has. Not to mention they can't hide their money in bank accounts overseas.

Canda does collect a great percentage of taxes in terms of GDP when compared to the US so obviously Canada makes up the difference somewhere.

There is also the factor that Canadian companies don't have to provide healthcare coverage so they could afford to pay more.

Bottom line my response to a poster that the market place would raise the minimum wage. So we have the richest market place in the world. So why are Canadian workers paid better? Could be that their are sociopaths in the US and the greed of the mega corpoorations is out of control? Mom and pop stores would not have a problem paying higher wages if they did not have to compete with the prices of the mega corporations.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Minimum wage jobs are not for living off of.

If you stay on a minimum wage job your entire life, you have more serious problems than trying to raise a family on it.

Perhaps. But as automation increased the "skills" people need for our economy are reduced and reduced and reduced.

That was pretty much the entire point of my robots/automation discussion a few pages back. Everyone seemed to ignore it oddly enough...

 

[Ndaccountant]

Perhaps. But as automation increased the "skills" people need for our economy are reduced and reduced and reduced.

That was pretty much the entire point of my robots/automation discussion a few pages back. Everyone seemed to ignore it oddly enough...

I didn't ignore it, but I don't think it tells the whole story.

Robots are clearly replacing unskilled labor. However, skilled labor is a different story. Skilled trades, mechanics and machine operators are really tough to find. These job requirements call for a certain level of education, oftern completing an associates degree or some other post high school education. Often, these jobs go unfilled. In fact, according to the manpower group, trade skill positions are the hardest jobs to fill.

ManpowerGroup - Talent Shortage Survey

In my opinion, robots change the skill set required for employment. It is up to the individual to learn new skills.

 

[Downinthebend]

Perhaps. But as automation increased the "skills" people need for our economy are reduced and reduced and reduced.

That was pretty much the entire point of my robots/automation discussion a few pages back. Everyone seemed to ignore it oddly enough...

I kinda ignored it because I can't do anything for it, short of "stifling" innovation, and it creates wealth. Even though we aren't as "skilled" the same amount of effort is worth more now than it was before.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

So I tried finding some credible sources to support the "mass exodus" from California theory. Could not find any for people and or businesses. I found a few reports and op eds from Fox News and the OC Register, but they were pretty much garbage.

I'm aware of one person who left for Texas, he's a GOP political consultant. Lol.

If you think the state is a "liberal" utopia you've obviously never been to Bakersfield. Also, doesn't Mitt Romney live in San Diego? I'm sure he'd much rather live in Waco staring at dust devils and tumble weeds.

Well then that's a you problem. I posted a few weeks ago in this thread several household moving studies from 2011 and 2012 and census numbers from 2010. Here, I'll even help. 1) go to Google 2) Type in "people leaving California." 3) Read.

Mitt Romney's primary residence is in Mass. but he owns homes in a few other states. Mitt isn't chillin in beautiful San Diego 11 months out of the year. Why bring up Waco? Why not Houston? Austin? Dallas/ Fort Worth?

 

[RallySonsOfND]

Our society as a whole is moving towards a more service based economy. I think that as we go towards more automated/robotic labor replacing unskilled labor, there will be a shift to the service portion of our goods/services economy.

More people paying to have their yards maintained, snow shoveled, houses cleaned, house renovations, etc.

Lower costs of goods -> more disposable income for other things.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I didn't ignore it, but I don't think it tells the whole story.

Robots are clearly replacing unskilled labor. However, skilled labor is a different story. Skilled trades, mechanics and machine operators are really tough to find. These job requirements call for a certain level of education, oftern completing an associates degree or some other post high school education. Often, these jobs go unfilled. In fact, according to the manpower group, trade skill positions are the hardest jobs to fill.

ManpowerGroup - Talent Shortage Survey

In my opinion, robots change the skill set required for employment. It is up to the individual to learn new skills.

Don't look at it as robots as much as automation, or "smart automation."

Not is certainly not just unskilled labor.

Law: legalzoom.com is the first of many automated lawyers. Need a make a will? Need to form an LLC? Need to make a simple contract? You don't need an actual lawyer for the simple stuff anymore. What is regarded as simple those is rising over time.

Education: Regardless of the popular opinion of the University of Phoenix and other online universities, recorded lectures are still replacing professors in rudimentary classes (i.e. the 101s of the world). Instead of teaching a class of thirty in a classroom, a few grad students can--and are--operating courses of 125 or so, with homework built in to go along with the recorded lecture of a great professor who is dead for all we know. Students submit questions, they answer it. Recorded lectures and FAQs can teach 90% of the course-load for the low-level classes.

Medicine: What about doctors? Two years ago Watson (the IBM supercomputer) was the size of a living room, now it's the size of a stack of pizza boxes and is 240% faster--in only two years. IBM is putting this know-literally-everything-bot in hospitals and it is having amazing effects. Not surprisingly, it is making better treatment recommendations than doctors and saving money and time in the process: Researchers say AI prescribes better treatment than doctors — Tech News and Analysis

This will all have good consequences, much like capitalism did with agriculture, textiles, and manufacturing. The cost of all of those things should plummet and be more readily available to everyone....but make no mistake the individual skills are being automated and there is no telling what smart automation can do. It'll be a whole new world.

The immediately scary part is that it won't completely replace people in these fields, but it replace some. We don't need that many lawyers anymore for a number of reasons; classroom sizes will increase as automated curricula are more effective; we won't need X doctors per person, we'll need .75X doctors, and they'll be 500% more effective. That's what capitalism does, makes people more effective with the use of capital-intensive machinery/technology.

I kinda ignored it because I can't do anything for it, short of "stifling" innovation, and it creates wealth. Even though we aren't as "skilled" the same amount of effort is worth more now than it was before.

I disagree entirely. I don't even think capitalists say that. The reason Walmart employees are paid so little is because their job is sooooo simple, skill has been almost completely replaced. They don't need to even be able to make change correctly (or 100% of the time), the computer tells them! They don't need supply chain managers in the warehouse constantly calculating how much XYZ stores need, the computer immediately knows once the barcode is scanned in the store--the computer prints out the order form and the trucker drives it there. When automation happens, wages fall or remain stagnate.