Oversigning Recruits

[Legacy]

I think this is a good example of why oversigning isn't the epitome of evil some claim. If you exit NSD with 85 scholarship players, there's almost no chance you'll still have all 85 of those guys in August. Burgess-Becker exited spring realizing he was buried on the depth chart and had little chance for serious playing time, so he transferred in order to have a better shot at playing elsewhere. Robinson & Jones got in trouble and may or may not be back. One signee from this year's class didn't qualify academically. Luckily we didn't lose anyone this spring to a career-ending injury, but it happens at every school occasionally. There's still 60+ days left until the start of fall practice and we may still see a player or two get injured away from school, get in trouble, or decide he doesn't want to play anymore. Normal attrition typically takes a few players every season at virtually every school and if you don't account for that on NSD by oversigning, you'll hit August with 80 or so guys on your roster and be "depth-challenged" all season.

I totally agree. Oversigning has been relatively contolled by the SEC rules in 2011. Attrition happens and the numbers work out before fall camp - as it has at ND. The only Senior or Junior, who was not listed by some on Alabama's depth chart, is fifth year Dakota Ball, who is at TE. (Howard and Hentges listed ahead of him.) Now that Burgess-Becker has transferred, the only Sophs not on the two deep are Casher and Dwight.

I would add that Alabama was in competition to the end for 2016 five stars Jeffery Simmons, Mecole Hardiman, and even Demetris Robertson. I have to think that he would have taken any of them.

What is also should be pointed out is that the last medical scholarships were given to players from the Class of 2013. I have injuries to Ronnie Clark (torn achilles) and to Richie Petibon (ACL). Both are expected to return next year. So, Saban commits to those players who sign with him.

As sure as the sun rises, each Alabama class will have twenty-five signees. Saban might take a chance on one signee, who may or may not qualify. (McBride, Scarborough, Flowers and now Jones). But, if Alabama has less Early Entrants to the Draft and there are no serious disciplinary issues, there's more pressure to get to eighty-five.

As always, B2b5, thanks for your input.

 

[Legacy]

Florida State - Class of 2016 recruit, Shavar Manuel, did not qualify and is headed to JUCO.

Graduate transfer from Oklahoma, Jack Steed, punter, now confirmed as a scholarship player. FSU remains at 86.

 

[T Town Tommy]

legacy... you keeping up? Just wondering...

 

[Legacy]

legacy... you keeping up? Just wondering...

Whatcha got, Tommy?

Alabama Football Scholarship Spreadsheet (unlinked)

 

[T Town Tommy]

Whatcha got, Tommy?

Alabama Football Scholarship Spreadsheet

Nice. By my count Bama is at 85 now... with a good possibility of being at 83 before long.

 

[Legacy]

Nice. By my count Bama is at 85 now... with a good possibility of being at 83 before long.

Where'd I go wrong? Or where am I off since I am at 86?

You counted Dieter? What's the word on getting to 83?

 

[T Town Tommy]

Where'd I go wrong? Or where am I off since I am at 86? What's the word on getting to 83?

Mo Smith has decided to transfer as a grad transfer. A little surprised as he was slated as the starting nickel back. Josh McMillon and Adonis Thomas are rumored to be moving on as well. Not official however.

 

[Legacy]

Mo Smith has decided to transfer as a grad transfer. A little surprised as he was slated as the starting nickel back. Josh McMillon and Adonis Thomas are rumored to be moving on as well. Not official however.

Ok. Thanks. Just thought you might like to see the spreadsheet. PM me if you hear anything else.

Anyone else who wants to see others in the thirteen I followed this year (see above), let me know.

 

[Legacy]

Florida State - Class of 2016 recruit, Shavar Manuel, did not qualify and is headed to JUCO.

Graduate transfer from Oklahoma, Jack Steed, punter, now confirmed as a scholarship player. FSU remains at 86.

I am now counting Keion Joyner in FSU's Class of 2016 as not qualifying.

FSU is at 85.

Florida State Football Eligibility Spreadsheet (unlinked)

With Maurice Smith's (graduate) transfer from Bama, Alabama is at 85.

 

[Legacy]

With Patrick Hudson's (OL) commitment, four ex-Baylor signees have signed with Texas. Their scholarship counts are 28 in the Class of '16 and eighty-five total.

Texas Football Eligibility Spreadsheet (unlinked)

 

[Legacy]

With DE Sione Teuhema's transfer, LSU is at eighty-three.

LSU Football Scholarship Spreadsheet (unlinked)

 

[Legacy]

With Brad Hawkins (WR) announcement that he will attend prep school instead of Michigan, Michigan is at eighty-three scholarship players before walkon scholarships. After NSD, Michigan was at eighty-seven.

I expect two walkons who had scholarships last year - Ryan Glasgow (DT) and Kenny Allen (K) - and are starters to have their scholarship renewed for a total of eighty-five.

Michigan Football Eligibility Spreadsheet[/URL] (unlinked)

 

[Legacy]

Only Joseph Putu has coursework to finish before entering Florida, but he's making As and Bs, so I am counting him.

Florida Football Eligibility Spreadsheet (unlinked)

Since the end of last season, Florida has seen attrition of eight players (4 transfers, 4 Early Entrants) with one Transfer In. Additionally, one of the '16 class of twenty-six did not qualify.

Last year, Jim McElwain gave out scholarships to six walkons. With eighty scholarship players, he can give out scholarships to the three remaining of those six and a couple of others.

 

[Legacy]

With Derrick Green's transfer to TCU, they are at 84.

TCU Football Eligibility Spreadsheet (unlinked)

I do more searching of the official roster with TCU than any other team. Sometimes, players just disappear without any news. (Many from '14) Kickers start off as walkons then get scholships without fanfare. Track stars are listed as signees, but don't play football. TCU gets transfers in. JC signees are gone in two years. 4 WR sets and two LB with three safeties.

But I like to see "Rocket Ismail" when I view the roster.

 

[Legacy]

In general, Clemson enrolls all its signees with 2015 a bit of an aberation. Clemson also appears to renew scholarships given to walkons the previous year (four walkons to scholarships in 2015 have been renewed. At 84 scholarship players for 2016, they have one more scholie to give to a walkon.)

Class of 2013 - 17 of 23 enrollees on 2016 roster
Class of 2014 - 15 of 20 enrollees on 2016 roster
Class of 2015 - 23 of original 26 enrollees on 2016 roster with three Grayshirts from 2014 added to that. (Attrition - two of the twenty-six did not qualify and one has been dismissed.)

Clemson Football Eligibility Spreadsheet (unlinked)

(I have completed the listing on "Oversigning" of the two ACC schools (Clemson, FSU) as well as the two B12 schools (Texas, TCU) that I follow.) (see above)

 

[Legacy]

On Florida State, medical scholarships may be considered for three players with serious injuries/conditions:

Mario Pender, RB, RS Senior - had a collapsed lung last fall, hospitalized, seen at spring practice, but not on spring game roster. Jimbo says he is still rehabbing and hopes to have him by the fall.

Chad Mavety, OL, RS Senior - starter, out indefintely with "cardiac issues"

Lorenzo Featherston, DE, Junior - knee injury and was out most of last year as well as this year so far. Jimbo says it may be "career-ending"

Other attrition possibilities -
Justin Shanks, DT, RS Senior - not listed on three deep at either DT or NG at the end of last year. FSU has ten NGs/DTs listed on roster. FSU plays a 4-3.

Shavar Manuel, DT from Class of 2016 - has not qualified yet

Florida State was at 89 scholarship players after NSD.

Pender was dismissed from the team.
Featherston took a medical scholarship for injured knee.
Mavety, who has cardiac issues, is not listed on their Fall roster. I assume he's taken a med scholie, too.
Manuel did not qualify and is going to JC.

Shanks is still listed on the roster.

Chris Casher, a RS Senior, has left the team, rumored to be academically related.
Tyrell Lyons transferred.

Florida State is at 83 scholarship players.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Legacy, with a couple of recent transfers, Bama should be down to about 83, I think. Is that right?

 

[Legacy]

Legacy, with a couple of recent transfers, Bama should be down to about 83, I think. Is that right?

Absolutely right, Bishop. You follow your scholarship counts. (I assume Maurice Smith will get his graduate transfer, and also that both Robinson and Hootie will meet the criteria of their corrective actions and that Tony Brown has his suspension by the NCAA (?) lifted.)

Bama sat at 88 scholarship players after NSD, having lost two others to Early Entrants (Henry and Robinson) to the NFL draft and three others (Morris, Liner and Black (a grad tr))

Since then,
- Gehrig Dieter transferred in
- Walker Jones was not offered a fifth year (I assume) and graduated
- Charles Baldwin was dismissed
- Maurice Smith announced he would be a grad transfer
- Shawn Burgess-Becker, Adonis Thomas and Christian Bell transferred

Bell and Thomas never played a down with Bama and both were at the back end of a talented and deep OLB corps. B-B also was at the back end of a talented secondary. (All signed for the '15 class. Bell was a grayshirt to '16.) Thomas went to JUCO. B-B is now at UCF (he is from Florida). Bell (from Alabama) has not yet announced his new school.

So, since the end of the regular season, Alabama has had two graduate transfers, five undergrad transfers, one dismissal, one not offered fifth (or choosing to graduate), two Early Entrants and one transfer in.

Now Bama is at 83 and, once again, this seems like normal attrition to me. A few notes,
- Bama has had no one put on medical scholarship since 2013.
- Bama has had four signees in the past five classes who did not meet admission criteria. Saban takes a chance at one per class. However, each have qualified the next year and been given a scholarship with that class.
- Bama has lost twelve players to Early Entry to the NFL in the past four years - average three per year
- Bama has been able to offer almost all of its redshirt seniors a fifth year (seven of eight this year)
- Bama has had two grayshirts in the past five classes and both were admitted the next year (two signees are also PWOs for the '16 class - a K and a LS)

Saban will once again take 24-26 signees in 2017, and once again the numbers will work out.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Absolutely right, Bishop. You follow your scholarship counts.

No, I follow your updates here and was more or less guessing based on recent news! Thank you very much for keeping the lazy researchers like myself informed!

 

[Legacy]

Ohio State

Ohio State

After NSD, Ohio State was at 87 scholarship players plus two walkons who were awarded scholarships for the spring semester. Initially, Drue Chrisman, P, was designated as a grayshhirt for '16. After attrition, Ohio State was at 83 after Chrisman was given a scholarship. Those two walkons were awarded full time scholarships for 2016. Ohio State is at 85. (Hounsell is still a PWO)

Ohio State Football Eligibility Spreadsheet (unlinked)

Attrition:
Kyle Berger - med scholarship
Warren Bell - graduate transfer
Kareem Felder - Did not qualify
Donovan Munger - med scholarship
Grant Schmidt - undergrad transfer
Dylan Thompson - academically ineligible
Bri'onte Dunn - dismissed

(Big 10 (2), ACC (2), Big 12 (2) schools scholarship spreadsheets completed. See above)

SEC (Georgia) and Pac 12 (USC and Stanford) schools to go. SEC - Alabama, LSU, Florida above.

 

[Legacy]

Georgia

Georgia

Georgia Football Eligibility Spreadsheet (unlinked)

Georgia had eighty-four scholarship players last year. Graduating nineteen players and signing twenty-one in Smart's first class left little room for attrition, but Georgia lost nine players to attrition. (One Early Entrant, two dismissals, one medical, one did not qualify, three undergrad transfers, one grad transfer)

Georgia currently has eighty scholarship players on their roster in Kirby Smart's first year despite signing 30+ recruits in two of the last four years. Their 2017 class is currently ranked 6th with fourteen verbals and an average star rating (3.79) behind only Alabama, Ohio State and Florida State.

SEC (4), ACC (2), B10 (2) and B12 (2) spreadsheets listed. USC and Stanford left to post.

 

[Legacy]

USC football Eligibility Spreadsheet (unlinked)

After the NCAA suspension and scholarship reductions and despite fifty-one signees in their last two recruiting classes, USC has yet to reach eighty-five scholarship players.

Last year, they had seventy-six players on scholarship counting six walkons with scholarships and transfers in. This year, USC has eighty scholarship players and able to give a walkon and two transfers in scholarships for a total of eighty-three.

This year's numbers also count a sixth year scholarship player.

 

[Legacy]

Beyond the Signee Numbers - SEC East, Florida

Beyond the Signee Numbers - SEC East, Florida

Signees in the past 4 (5) years - 102 (125) - ave 25.5 (25.0)
Enrollees in the past 4 (5) years - 98 (120) - ave 24.5 (24.0)

Scholarship numbers for 2015 - 79 (Class of 2015 - 19 enrollees)
Scholarship total for 2016 - 83 (includes 3 walkons with scholarships, 2 transfers in with scholarships, 3 Special Teamers on scholarship) (Class of 2016 - 25 enrollees)

So, despite averaging classes of twenty-five for four or five years, Florida still falls short of eighty-five and has been giving walkons scholarships the last two years.

Attrition after regular season, before NSD - 5 - 4 Early Entrants, 1 Transfer (1 Transfer In)
Attrition after NSD, before fall camp - 5 - 4 Transfers, 1 Did Not Qualify (2016 signee)
Total Attrition since end of regular season - 10

For 2017, Nine Seniors will graduate and three Juniors are the walkon scholarships. (Of the nine other Juniors with eligible for fifth years in 2017, three are not starters in 2016 but should be offered fifth years.)

So, adding the two scholarships short in 2016, Florida has a baseline of fourteen scholarships to give. Florida has fourteen verbal commits. Normal attrition should up that to twenty.

 

[irishtrain]

Absolutely right, Bishop. You follow your scholarship counts. (I assume Maurice Smith will get his graduate transfer, and also that both Robinson and Hootie will meet the criteria of their corrective actions and that Tony Brown has his suspension by the NCAA (?) lifted.)

Bama sat at 88 scholarship players after NSD, having lost two others to Early Entrants (Henry and Robinson) to the NFL draft and three others (Morris, Liner and Black (a grad tr))

Since then,
- Gehrig Dieter transferred in
- Walker Jones was not offered a fifth year (I assume) and graduated
- Charles Baldwin was dismissed
- Maurice Smith announced he would be a grad transfer
- Shawn Burgess-Becker, Adonis Thomas and Christian Bell transferred

Bell and Thomas never played a down with Bama and both were at the back end of a talented and deep OLB corps. B-B also was at the back end of a talented secondary. (All signed for the '15 class. Bell was a grayshirt to '16.) Thomas went to JUCO. B-B is now at UCF (he is from Florida). Bell (from Alabama) has not yet announced his new school.

So, since the end of the regular season, Alabama has had two graduate transfers, five undergrad transfers, one dismissal, one not offered fifth (or choosing to graduate), two Early Entrants and one transfer in.

Now Bama is at 83 and, once again, this seems like normal attrition to me. A few notes,
- Bama has had no one put on medical scholarship since 2013.
- Bama has had four signees in the past five classes who did not meet admission criteria. Saban takes a chance at one per class. However, each have qualified the next year and been given a scholarship with that class.
- Bama has lost twelve players to Early Entry to the NFL in the past four years - average three per year
- Bama has been able to offer almost all of its redshirt seniors a fifth year (seven of eight this year)
- Bama has had two grayshirts in the past five classes and both were admitted the next year (two signees are also PWOs for the '16 class - a K and a LS)

Saban will once again take 24-26 signees in 2017, and once again the numbers will work out.

How is it that they never seem to have any academic casualties. Are they all really smart? Yeh they must be really smart kids.

 

[bluengold4732]

I remember at the All-American game their 4* DT Raekwon Davis did an interview and when asked what his favorite holiday was...he responded "June"... so you may be on to something. If it makes you feel better Kendall Jones didn't qualify academically this year...but he'll probably just grey shirt and enroll in the fall like Bo Scarborough did a few years back.

 

[AlabamaDuck]

SEC

SEC

The SEC has finally went to four year scholarships and the school presidents have said that over signing will not be allowed.
Saban is the only coach fighting the decision.

 

[Legacy]

How is it that they never seem to have any academic casualties. Are they all really smart? Yeh they must be really smart kids.

Alabama has signees who do not qualify and may go to prep or Community College.
Kendall Jones (Class of '16)
Montel McBride, Bo Scarbrough (Class of '14)
Melvin Ray, Brandon Hill (Class of '12)
McBride, Scarbrough, Hill and Ray all had scholarships waiting for them and enrolled in Alabama the following year when they met academic standards.

Desherrius Flowers ('15) enrolled early but left in June '15 due to academics.

As for others who may get in trouble for academics, that's harder to nail down and not formally publicized. Someone may be suspended for "violation of team rules", which could be for academics. If he then transfers....

You have to give many schools credit for giving a player who faces serious challenges in the schools they attend, etc. an opportunity to get a college education.

Here's an article on Jarran Reed, who went to prep out of high school, then, since he still did not qualify, went to Community College for a couple of years, signed with Florida, but still ended up short on credits and had to return to CC. He ended up at Alabama and has gone on to the NFL.
Inside Jarran Reed's long, winding journey to stardom at Alabama

Jordan Lesley, the defensive coordinator at East Mississippi, has spent nearly a decade in the junior college ranks. He's seen plenty of talented young players come undone after suffering a few setbacks trying to qualify. Reed surviving a year of prep school and two years of junior college is the exception not the rule.

"The majority of those kids you never hear from again," Lesley says. "Whether it's they don't graduate from junior college and have to go to a smaller college or whatever it may be. They aren't able to fight through the adversity."

Jarran buckled down, returned to the school and struck up a friendship with D.J. Pettway, who arrived that year from Alabama. Pettway got kicked off Alabama's team for his involvement in a robbery of another student, but all he could do was talk about how great the school was to his new teammate. Alabama was already recruiting Reed, and he was intrigued, but Pettway's explanation of daily life in Tuscaloosa helped sell him on the Crimson Tide.

Practically every school in the SEC wanted Reed -- "Jarran Reeds just aren't floating around everywhere," Lesley says -- but he decided his future would be best at Alabama. Nick Saban later gave the go-ahead for Pettway to return to the team after a year of purgatory and the two dominant junior college defensive linemen were headed to college together.

 

[Bishop2b5]

You have to give many schools credit for giving a player who faces serious challenges in the schools they attend, etc. an opportunity to get a college education.

This is something a few seem to lose sight of or just choose to ignore. Not every recruit is an academic giant or has a Mensa-level IQ. In fact, given that only 2% of the population has such an IQ and there are approximately 3000 D1 recruits signed each year, that means there are only about 60 such players signed each February. Guys like Barrett Jones, Manti Teo, Tim Tebow, or Myron Rolle are few and far between.

Many of these kids come from tough backgrounds where academic excellence wasn't stressed at home, school systems where they didn't get the best education, and they're often the first person in their family to attend college. What do some of you think these kids should do?

When you're a 4th generation college grad who attended a good high school and grew up in a middle-class home where "reading was fundamental" it's easy to turn your nose up at these kids and make fun of the schools who give them a chance to be the first in their family to attend college and better their situation. It's also shitty, short-sighted, snobby, and elitist as hell.

Since there are only about 60 academic giants among the 3000 or so signees each year, how exactly are all 100+ of the public universities to fill their classes with such kids? Public universities have a very different mission than elite private schools. They're tasked with giving an opportunity for an education to a very different set of kids. Do we really want to tell every kid who can't get into a ND, Stanford, Vandy or Duke that since he isn't "Harvard material" he doesn't deserve a chance to better his life and get an education by playing ball?

 

[bluengold4732]

I hear what you're saying but I don't think schools like BAMA, Ole Miss, FSU are giving these guys another chance at an education but rather giving themselves another chance to bolster their rosters. Of those guys mentioned only Scarborough is on the current roster. The others they moved on from after they had other football players to take their place. Just last cycle...Alabama pulled scholarships from Riley Cole, Josh Perry, Tyler Simmons, and Bo Scales to make room in their class for more elite football players. There's been many occasions where they asked players who did qualify academically to look elsewhere for guys like Scarborough and Kendall Jones.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I hear what you're saying but I don't think schools like BAMA, Ole Miss, FSU are giving these guys another chance at an education but rather giving themselves another chance to bolster their rosters. Of those guys mentioned only Scarborough is on the current roster. The others they moved on from after they had other football players to take their place. Just last cycle...Alabama pulled scholarships from Riley Cole, Josh Perry, Tyler Simmons, and Bo Scales to make room in their class for more elite football players. There's been many occasions where they asked players who did qualify academically to look elsewhere for guys like Scarborough and Kendall Jones.

Riley Cole didn't have his scholarship pulled. He was told a couple of weeks before NSD that he might have to grayshirt and chose to go somewhere else with a guaranteed scholly instead of waiting to see if Bama would have a spot for him after NSD or ask him to wait a year.

Josh Perry decommitted after being told he'd probably be asked to grayshirt.

Tyler Simmons flipped his commitment to UGA before NSD.

I have no idea who Bo Scales is. Never heard of him.

You implied that these players were on campus on scholarship, and Bama just pulled their scholarship to make room for someone else. That's simply not true at all. These were recruits who were told there might not be a spot for them in this year's class and they should expect to grayshirt (and btw, Bama has honored every one of their grayshirts during Saban's tenure).

It's extremely common at all schools that they offer a LOT more kids during the recruiting process than they have spots for. In fact, I don't know of any school that doesn't do it. They know that to get 25 kids in a class, they have to offer several times that number. As NSD approaches and a school has a better grasp of how many of those offered kids are actually going to sign, they "cull the herd" and let a few of them know the offer is no longer on the table or that if the kid does come to their school, they're probably going to be buried way down the depth chart and encourage them to look elsewhere. Bama does that, ND does that, USC does that, and so does everyone else. If you want to call that "pulling a scholarship" go ahead, but it's a far cry from actually pulling a scholly from a kid who's in your program and in school.