Offensive Line Thread

[InKellyWeTrust]

Agree with others. The O-line has been much improved. Book has to be better.

 

[koonja]

#Quinning.

This actually really upsets me with Ian Book.

Guys, we're sacrificing having a great OL, a NFL WR, NFL TE, the best DEs and safeties we've had in 2 decades, and a world class defensive coordinator.... all on a QB regressing when we have 5-star-Phil in his 3rd year and healthy.

Baker Mayfield had to transfer to play. Jacob Easton had to get hurt to give Fromm a chance.... the coaches don't always know best.

This was our year to win it all with Clemson and Bama looking beatable, and we decided to play it safe rather than go for the kill with 5-star-Phil.

 

[Irish YJ]

I really wish they would play 5 star Phil just so all the Book haters could get a reality check.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

I really wish they would play 5 star Phil just so all the Book haters could get a reality check.

To play devil's advocate...
This is what Wimbush supporters said (including myself), he was winning after all...

 

[Irish YJ]

To play devil's advocate...
This is what Wimbush supporters said (including myself), he was winning after all...

From what I've heard and seen, PJ might be very similar to Wimbush. Good at running, strong arm, but struggles with the rest.

What bothers me the most, is Book's regression. Not sure what the heck our coaches are doing in year 2 to these poor QBs lol.

 

[koonja]

I really wish they would play 5 star Phil just so all the Book haters could get a reality check.

Put in Clark! He looked better than PJ in the New Mexico game!

#FirePhil

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

From what I've heard and seen, PJ might be very similar to Wimbush. Good at running, strong arm, but struggles with the rest.

What bothers me the most, is Book's regression. Not sure what the heck our coaches are doing in year 2 to these poor QBs lol.

The biggest differences with Brandon and Phil are....

1) Brandon got a ton (majority) of 1st team practice reps... Phil hasn't.
2) Brandon got a ton of live game experience... Phil hasn't

To compare Phil to Brandon, based on (mostly) just spring/fall camp beat reviews is unfair. I understand the "concern" (Brandon PTSD) but there's no real evidence to suggest this.

 

[Irish YJ]

Put in Clark! He looked better than PJ in the New Mexico game!

#FirePhil

Avery Davis is obviously the QB to take us to the next level.

The biggest differences with Brandon and Phil are....

1) Brandon got a ton (majority) of 1st team practice reps... Phil hasn't.
2) Brandon got a ton of live game experience... Phil hasn't

To compare Phil to Brandon, based on (mostly) just spring/fall camp beat reviews is unfair. I understand the "concern" (Brandon PTSD) but there's no real evidence to suggest this.

Right now, it's all we have lol. It's what we had of Book before he replaced BW.

Honestly I'm not anti-Phil, or pro-Book. I do think our starting WRs are really mediocre though aside from Claypool (who I think as more a #2 than a #1), and I'm not high on our OL's pass blocking regardless of what PFF says. While I think Book absolutely needs to improve, I don't think the O is set up for a lot of success (Kmet being the only diamond) with anyone else behind center.

I would absolutely love it if PJ came in and was a stud though. I just don't see it though.

 

[EvilleIrish]

#Quinning.

This actually really upsets me with Ian Book.

Guys, we're sacrificing having a great OL, a NFL WR, NFL TE, the best DEs and safeties we've had in 2 decades, and a world class defensive coordinator.... all on a QB regressing when we have 5-star-Phil in his 3rd year and healthy.

Baker Mayfield had to transfer to play. Jacob Easton had to get hurt to give Fromm a chance.... the coaches don't always know best.

This was our year to win it all with Clemson and Bama looking beatable, and we decided to play it safe rather than go for the kill with 5-star-Phil.

2nd year in the program

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Avery Davis is obviously the QB to take us to the next level.



Right now, it's all we have lol. It's what we had of Book before he replaced BW.

Honestly I'm not anti-Phil, or pro-Book. I do think our starting WRs are really mediocre though aside from Claypool (who I think as more a #2 than a #1), and I'm not high on our OL's pass blocking regardless of what PFF says. While I think Book absolutely needs to improve, I don't think the O is set up for a lot of success (Kmet being the only diamond) with anyone else behind center.

I would absolutely love it if PJ came in and was a stud though. I just don't see it though.

Not true.

Book played the entire UNC game and part of LSU bowl game the previous year.

 

[Irishman77]

#Quinning.

This actually really upsets me with Ian Book.

Guys, we're sacrificing having a great OL, a NFL WR, NFL TE, the best DEs and safeties we've had in 2 decades, and a world class defensive coordinator.... all on a QB regressing when we have 5-star-Phil in his 3rd year and healthy.

Baker Mayfield had to transfer to play. Jacob Easton had to get hurt to give Fromm a chance.... the coaches don't always know best.

This was our year to win it all with Clemson and Bama looking beatable, and we decided to play it safe rather than go for the kill with 5-star-Phil.

Superb Post!

 

[Irishman77]

Kizer was a genius when he left early. He got paid before he was ruined here.

 

[Luckylucci]

From what I've heard and seen, PJ might be very similar to Wimbush. Good at running, strong arm, but struggles with the rest.

What bothers me the most, is Book's regression. Not sure what the heck our coaches are doing in year 2 to these poor QBs lol.

At first it was the WR’s and OL. Now it’s the coaches. Could it be possible he was never that good to begin with. He’s never done exceptionally well against really good defenses. Good teams can clearly scheme effectively to lower his efficiency. At what point are these shortcomings he’s had all along. You call them Book haters. I don’t think you gotta hate Book to actually see what’s going on. He’ll carve up bad teams, Play ok against good ones, and stink up the joint versus the elite ones.

He waits for WR’s to be running free. He doesn’t understand defensive pressures or have a good feel for them in the pocket. He refuses to take shots down field or doesn’t see the whole field. These are the same issues going all the way back to the Pitt game last year, when they were bringing Cb blitzes and all he had to do was throw to the spot where the CB was blitzing from. He just never saw it.

 

[Irish YJ]

Not true.

Book played the entire UNC game and part of LSU bowl game the previous year.

I was speaking mostly about the comparisons (spring/summer) and 1st team reps going into 18. The NCar game wasn't a great look for Book (horrible QBR). His performance vs LSU was nice, but not sure how much 1st team reps he had for that game.

 

[BobbyMac]

Crus, would you say this is more evidence of Book’s struggles being on him, considering the line has graded out as well as they have in pass pro? Leaving clean pockets has been an issue, and I feel like this kind of backs up what I’ve been seeing

It is on him. BUT, it's also on the staff too. Book should have release valves and at least one TE/Slot/RB route that is an immediate option on every down. I've seen too many times where his crazy feet started while the TE's were working too far down the field and the RB was stuck in pass pro. Tom Brady never gets left out to dry like that. If Book can't stretch the field (for whatever reason, another conversation to be had) then they have to have more of the old Joe Tiller, basketball on grass mentality.

Not sure how much stock I'd put into PFF's grade.

I don't but I've had the feeling the line has been either really good or bad depending on the play. There's not a lot of mediocrity going on here. HH had that problem too, even in '17. So it leads me to believe that BK/Long's playbook makes the line look this way.

#Quinning.

Guys, we're sacrificing having a great OL, a NFL WR, NFL TE, the best DEs and safeties we've had in 2 decades, and a world class defensive coordinator.... all on a QB regressing when we have 5-star-Phil in his 3rd year and healthy.

Baker Mayfield had to transfer to play. Jacob Easton had to get hurt to give Fromm a chance.... the coaches don't always know best.

This was our year to win it all with Clemson and Bama looking beatable, and we decided to play it safe rather than go for the kill with 5-star-Phil.

#Quinning. Hard to believe so many thought this was a reversion to cronyism.

And Phil's in his 2nd year. Lets not lose a prime year at the end of his career, we need a seemless handoff to 5Buchs.

When PJ was in HS, I thought this would be the year he took over and it would be the rebuilding year... a 10-3 type of season. But the safeties came out of nowhere last year. The DE room is better than I expected (and I had high hopes for them), Kmet's turned into what was promised and when you have to have a catch, Claypool has the tools to beat everyone. What's missing? the ability (and confidence) to walk onto the field and without warming up throw a 50 yard strike to... the other guy who needs to be playing.

I really wish they would play 5 star Phil just so all the Book haters could get a reality check.

This would make a good signature. I'm gonna use it.

2nd year in the program

Why isn't Quinn regressing?

 

[NDMIA]

At first it was the WR’s and OL. Now it’s the coaches. Could it be possible he was never that good to begin with. He’s never done exceptionally well against really good defenses. Good teams can clearly scheme effectively to lower his efficiency. At what point are these shortcomings he’s had all along. You call them Book haters. I don’t think you gotta hate Book to actually see what’s going on. He’ll carve up bad teams, Play ok against good ones, and stink up the joint versus the elite ones.

He waits for WR’s to be running free. He doesn’t understand defensive pressures or have a good feel for them in the pocket. He refuses to take shots down field or doesn’t see the whole field. These are the same issues going all the way back to the Pitt game last year, when they were bringing Cb blitzes and all he had to do was throw to the spot where the CB was blitzing from. He just never saw it.

Well said. If what ur saying is true and Book was never that good to begin with then the coaching staff should have all won coach of the year awards last year for making him the 12th best QBR QB in college football. I think Book is a low ceiling, high floor QB that’s found a nice role in the ND offense. He’s the NCAA equivalent of Alex Smith in the NFL. An effective game-manager who doesn’t turn the ball over too much.

Points Per Game - 13th FBS
Yards Per Game - 27th FBS
Yards Per Play - 9th FBS
Rush Yards Per Carry - 12th FBS
Pass Yard Per Game - 41st FBS
FBS QBR - 36th

Right now I see ND as a real solid offense that isn’t quite elite. Of Power 5 teams in scoring per game and other traits combined with that stat, only 5 teams are definitively better than ND’s offense (Alabama, LSU, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Wisconsin). After that you could make the argument that ND is in the conversation for a top 10 offense amongst power 5 teams. It’s not all that bad. Could it be better? Yes. But the offense isn’t anemic and go ask Miami what real QB problems are. I hope Book leads ND to 11-1 and then Phil Jurkovec continues to develops and takes the reins next season as the #1 dude cause he’s got the higher ceiling but lower floor right now.

 

[ThePiombino]

At first it was the WR’s and OL. Now it’s the coaches. Could it be possible he was never that good to begin with. He’s never done exceptionally well against really good defenses. Good teams can clearly scheme effectively to lower his efficiency. At what point are these shortcomings he’s had all along. You call them Book haters. I don’t think you gotta hate Book to actually see what’s going on. He’ll carve up bad teams, Play ok against good ones, and stink up the joint versus the elite ones.



He waits for WR’s to be running free. He doesn’t understand defensive pressures or have a good feel for them in the pocket. He refuses to take shots down field or doesn’t see the whole field. These are the same issues going all the way back to the Pitt game last year, when they were bringing Cb blitzes and all he had to do was throw to the spot where the CB was blitzing from. He just never saw it.

All of this. 1000%.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

 

[BobbyMac]

I don’t think you gotta hate Book to actually see what’s going on. He’ll carve up bad teams, Play ok against good ones, and stink up the joint versus the elite ones.

Exactly. I don't hate Book at all. It's entirely possible if he starts every game this year, he could go 12-1 depending on who he draws in the bowl game. And even agaisnt an elite team, he might not do anything to win the game but he might not make enough mistakes to get in the way of the defense and the run game of winning either.

I was 99% certain he wouldn't be the difference maker for ND to beat UGA, MI, and two playoff teams... which is what ND should be shooting for. That came to fruition.

The question is. What is more important to the program. Going 11-2 / 12-1, and not preparing for '20/'21/'22 playoffs or going all in with Phil?

 

[Domina Nostra]

Well said. If what ur saying is true and Book was never that good to begin with then the coaching staff should have all won coach of the year awards last year for making him the 12th best QBR QB in college football. I think Book is a low ceiling, high floor QB that’s found a nice role in the ND offense. He’s the NCAA equivalent of Alex Smith in the NFL. An effective game-manager who doesn’t turn the ball over too much.

My spin on this is that I don't see Brian Kelly as bad at developing QB's so much as excellent at game-planning for decent QBs like Rees and Book.

Question: What coaches in the country are excellent at developing NFL QBs?
Answer: The one's who:

1) recruit/coach superstar kids like Deshawn Watson or Kyler Murray who are way, way, way ahead of the pack (Dabo and Riley)
2) run creative offenses that play bad defenses and score tons of points every year (entire Pac 12)
3) who put their QB in position to take advantage of overwhelming talent around them (Saban and Meyer), or
4) ones who get lucky in recruiting

When you combine more than one of these factors, like Riley, you become a guru.

Everyone else makes due. As the kid gets more experience, he'll get more comfortable and ordinarily be better in the games he should win. At the same time, as more film on a kid emerges, it gets harder for the QB against the teams with similar talent levels.

When you occasionally get a really good one for whatever reason (recently Duke, Wake Forest, Cal), you look like a QB genius and take full credit for it.

In reality, you can screw up a QB and an offense, but the idea that QBs develop along a clean curve is just not true.

The question is. What is more important to the program. Going 11-2 / 12-1, and not preparing for '20/'21/'22 playoffs or going all in with Phil?

THIS!!!!!! It is a no-win situation for Kelly. The fans will not understand either way.

 

[Luckylucci]

Of course the numbers can look good over a season. You can post really good numbers when you only play 1 elite defense and a couple other good ones on a 13 game schedule. And that’s essentially what I said above. Didn’t say he was terrible but this notion that it’s always someone else’s fault makes me laugh. WR’s, OL, RB’s, now coaches but never the QB. It’s the same denial some had with Zaire and then Wimbush. It’s just planting a flag and ignoring reality. We have a large enough sample size to call it like it is. He’s not “The Guy” he’s just the guy right now.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

I would not be opposed to having 5 star Phil have a few planned series a game. Mostly designed runs and RPO's please.

 

[Irish YJ]

At first it was the WR’s and OL. Now it’s the coaches. Could it be possible he was never that good to begin with. He’s never done exceptionally well against really good defenses. Good teams can clearly scheme effectively to lower his efficiency. At what point are these shortcomings he’s had all along. You call them Book haters. I don’t think you gotta hate Book to actually see what’s going on. He’ll carve up bad teams, Play ok against good ones, and stink up the joint versus the elite ones.

He waits for WR’s to be running free. He doesn’t understand defensive pressures or have a good feel for them in the pocket. He refuses to take shots down field or doesn’t see the whole field. These are the same issues going all the way back to the Pitt game last year, when they were bringing Cb blitzes and all he had to do was throw to the spot where the CB was blitzing from. He just never saw it.

Take Book out of the conversation for a moment.

1) How would you rank our WR unit this year? Compared to the other top teams, they're pretty pedestrian, no? Would Finke or Von start for OSU, OK, Clemson, UGA, Bama, LSU, etc.. Not even close. Claypool might not even be a starter. He certainly wouldn't be a #1.

2) How would you rank our OL unit this year. PFF aside, FO has us outside the top 25 in every stat. We were even worse last year.

3) Coaching.... how have the majority of QBs done in year 2 with BK? They've regressed.

I'm not saying Book is a great QB. He has plenty of flaws. What I am saying is that he's far from the only issue we have on O. From a QB Rating perspective, Book has a better rating than guys like Fromm (who is 6th on PFF), Eason, Bryant, and several other guys that were star rated much higher than him. Heck, he even has a higher pass EPA than Lawrence. His passing EPA is like half of what it was last year. Is that simply all on his personal regression?

And on the topic of PJ/Book, if Book is so bad, what does that say about PJ if BK hasn't yet made a move.

 

[Luckylucci]

With everything I just said I just don’t see anyway you pull him in game action until he loses a game. It’s hard to justify pulling a starter who’s winning, to your team. Screw the fans and pundits but what about the guys that came back to fight tooth and nail against UGA for a spot in the playoff. Just to now pull the rip cord. You only do that if things get out of hand.

 

[BobbyMac]

THIS!!!!!! It is a no-win situation for Kelly. The fans will not understand either way.

All the Irish fans who are Cubs fans will.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Cleanup on aisle "Offensive line" thread...

 

[Irish#1]

Cleanup on aisle "Offensive line" thread...

Yes please.

 

[Wingman Ray]

At first it was the WR’s and OL. Now it’s the coaches. Could it be possible he was never that good to begin with. He’s never done exceptionally well against really good defenses. Good teams can clearly scheme effectively to lower his efficiency. At what point are these shortcomings he’s had all along. You call them Book haters. I don’t think you gotta hate Book to actually see what’s going on. He’ll carve up bad teams, Play ok against good ones, and stink up the joint versus the elite ones.

He waits for WR’s to be running free. He doesn’t understand defensive pressures or have a good feel for them in the pocket. He refuses to take shots down field or doesn’t see the whole field. These are the same issues going all the way back to the Pitt game last year, when they were bringing Cb blitzes and all he had to do was throw to the spot where the CB was blitzing from. He just never saw it.

A 3 star will perform as a 3 star. Every great blue moon a 3 star will overachieve but usually, they are ranked that for a reason. 3 stars beat the average teams, come respectfully close on the good teams and crap the drawers against the great teams.

Which is the story of Book so far

 

[Wingman Ray]

With everything I just said I just don’t see anyway you pull him in game action until he loses a game. It’s hard to justify pulling a starter who’s winning, to your team. Screw the fans and pundits but what about the guys that came back to fight tooth and nail against UGA for a spot in the playoff. Just to now pull the rip cord. You only do that if things get out of hand.

Phil should have played 3 quarters against BG and NM instead of Book padding his normally terrible stats. I can understand not against GA or USC but against those cupcakes, there was no reason to have Book in that late in the game.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

With everything I just said I just don’t see anyway you pull him in game action until he loses a game. It’s hard to justify pulling a starter who’s winning, to your team. Screw the fans and pundits but what about the guys that came back to fight tooth and nail against UGA for a spot in the playoff. Just to now pull the rip cord. You only do that if things get out of hand.

They pinned a C on his chest. He's unbenchable without good cause.

 

[NDMIA]

A 3 star will perform as a 3 star. Every great blue moon a 3 star will overachieve but usually, they are ranked that for a reason. 3 stars beat the average teams, come respectfully close on the good teams and crap the drawers against the great teams.

Which is the story of Book so far

2019
Tyler Huntley, UTAH
Jack Coan, WISCONSIN

2018
D’Eriq King, HOUSTON

2017
McKenzie Milton, UCF
Trace McSorley, PSU

That’s the 3* QB’s in the top 10 of QBR. Obviously the most likely killer QB’s are 4-5*’s that don’t have the height or arm limitations but there are still some 3*’s that made the list. I would love it if ND would recruit all 4*-5* talent that’s 6’4” 230 and can sling the ball around the field but the simple fact is that ND hasn’t recruited too many of them. The bottom line is that ND continues to bring in 4* talent at the QB position and hopefully that turns into one star on the field at all times. Here’s a look at a few of the top QB rooms in college football...

Notre Dame
RS JR .8681 3* Ian Book
RS FR .9593 4* Phil Jurkovec
FR .8796 3* Brendon Clark
HS SR .9251 4* Drew Pyne
HS JR .9718 4* Tyler Buchner

Michigan
SR .9982 5* Shea Patterson
RS SO .9435 4* Dylan McCaffrey
RS FR .9202 4* Joe Milton
FR .9052 4* Cade McNamara
HS SR .8871 3* JD Johnson
HS JR .9895 4* JJ McCarthy

Clemson
RS SO .8818 3* Chase Brice
SO .9999 5* Trevor Lawrence
FR .9152 4* Taisun Phommachanh
HS SR .9985 5* DJ Uiagalelei

Alabama
JR .9841 5* Tua Tagovailoa
RS SO .8815 4* Mac Jones
FR .9269 4* Taulia Tagovailoa
FR .8972 4* Paul Tyson
HS SR .9901 5* Bryce Young
HS JR .9691 4* Drake Maye

Georgia
JR .9794 5* Jake Fromm
RS SO .8304 3* Stetson Bennett
FR .8992 4* D’Wan Mathis
HS SR .9366 4* Carson Beck

LSU
RS SR .9003 4* Joe Burrow
RS SO .9347 4* Myles Brennan
FR .8988 3* Peter Parrish
HS SR .9125 4* Max Johnson
HS SR .8858 4* TJ Finley

ND is up there with any team in the country in terms of talent in the pipeline and depth at the position. Now obviously what is important is to have one super talented dude and in that regard, Clemson has the top dude coming in next season to sit for a year and then start when Lawrence leaves but injuries happen and busts happen. If ND can follow up Buchner and Pyne with a 4* level QB then you’ve stacked 3 straight top QB’s together and you’ll see an Alabama level depth chart of QB’s of which I’m sure they’ll be able to find one star. Just keep stacking 4-5*’s at the QB position. That’s the name of the game.