Native American Nicknames

[stonebreakerwasgod]

One can't live in the past, it holds you back

One can't live in the past, it holds you back

I am not from Oregon, the locals would be happy to tell you that...LOL

I am from the Midwest mostly. Minnesota, Ohio, and Indiana. However, before my MBA I got a history degree...so I am keenly aware of the genocide we committed just over 100 years ago.

We did it 120 years back...the Nazis 60. Kinda puts it in perspective.

I think at some point, the slavery and indian slaughter has to be put behind us. It happened, it was awful, should never happen again. But, can we move on and stop basing that on what's being done today?? People forget that the Indians and Africans slaughtered and enslaved their own (and today still), so why should the white guys get ALL the blame, especially so many years later.

 

[Satans Little Helper]

As i am of Cherokee decent i feel obliged to respond to this thread. In all seriousness, and with all due respect, iMO the use of any image, name,or likeness to the numerous conquered nations is dispicable.

It by far trancends the limited world of mascots and goes much further into the commercialization of products in american culture ( Jeep grand Chreokee, Toyota Sequoia etc...) The names are not used out of respect or intimidation of opponents or revenrence for a time long past. They are now marketable images of a culture that was systematically exterminated by an invading race of humans. I am not going to be so naive to think that it would never have happened or that some other group of people would not have done it, but the fact remains that the beautiful and harmonious cultures extant prior to the 1500's in america have now all but been exterminated and the people removed by coercion, lies, and outright genocide. My great grandmothers family were one of the Cherokees that managed to escape the hostile round up of the Chreokees in the NC Appalachians to be removed to Oklahoma on the trail of tears. They hid in the Kentucky mountains well out of site till the turn of the century (50+ years).

I could talk about this for a long time. I still have a turtle shell rattle that is 200 years old in my possession and it is all that i have of my Cherokee heritage due to the persistent destruction of my heritage. ( my great great great grandfather, a Wolf clan leader- the warriors clan, made the rattle)

Back to the main point I do not agree with it but the nations that actually have managed to survive on the plots of land alotted to them have a say in what they will allow. If they see that it is beneficial for them, to achieve a proper life in a country that up until now has denied them every basic right offered even to black slaves and undocumented aliens, i will say that it is their proper right to allow it. If not legally allowed by the tribe, I say no way should they be used and the nation sohuld have every recourse for pursuing legal action agiaanst said entities.

BTW i am the only person on this poll so far to oppose it.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

I think at some point, the slavery and indian slaughter has to be put behind us. It happened, it was awful, should never happen again. But, can we move on and stop basing that on what's being done today?? People forget that the Indians and Africans slaughtered and enslaved their own (and today still), so why should the white guys get ALL the blame, especially so many years later.

The problem is that it happened within the last 4 generations. Blacks could note vote in many states as recently as the 60's. It's not like the effects of slavery were eliminated 100+ years ago.

As for the American Indians, we never came to grips with that one ever.

That being said, we can put it behind us...but the question is do we use the likeness of those our people exterminated for explotative purposes? Or do we act with class, dignity, and reverence?

 

[ACamp1900]

class, dignity, and reverence?

class, dignity and what? what the hell are you talking about?

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

class, dignity and what? what the hell are you talking about?

LOL

 

[RI Domer]

WOP = was derived from an Italian word "guappo", which means thug...

This may be true but out here In Rhode Island we have a huge Italian population. I am in fact part of that population. Nevertheless WOP here has always meant With Out Papers referring to the way the original immigrants arrived in this country. (Just like in Godfather 2)

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

I guess I probably wouldn't care for it much if I were in those shoes. I do honestly think that the majority of fans of teams with that moniker does treat it with love, dignity, and respect. Having lived in the D.C. area, I would be much against changing the name to something else other than the Redskins. Then again, it is just a game after all.
Let's have a drink to honest, intellectual discussion!

 

[Satans Little Helper]

I guess I probably wouldn't care for it much if I were in those shoes. I do honestly think that the majority of fans of teams with that moniker does treat it with love, dignity, and respect. Having lived in the D.C. area, I would be much against changing the name to something else other than the Redskins. Then again, it is just a game after all.
Let's have a drink to honest, intellectual discussion!

well i have several friends in college that went to gonzaga High and are huge Redskins fans and i cant tell you how many times we have had the drunken discussions, arguments, and fights over this. Redskins is by far the worst. It was an ignorant description of people deemed less than human and now it is used to as a marketing tool and objectifying symbol.

the Clevland indians follow a close second. It is not only the names but the mentality of the people in this country that still continues today that deems it ok to invent and use these objects to make money.

But how can you rationally love a moniker that was truly born from hate, misunderstanding and genocide. (It is what it is) Just think about it next time.

 

[Satans Little Helper]

well i have several friends in college that went to gonzaga High and are huge Redskins fans and i cant tell you how many times we have had the drunken discussions, arguments, and fights over this. Redskins is by far the worst. It was an ignorant description of people deemed less than human and now it is used to as a marketing tool and objectifying symbol.

the Clevland indians follow a close second. It is not only the names but the mentality of the people in this country that still continues today that deems it ok to invent and use these objects to make money.

But how can you rationally love a moniker that was truly born from hate, misunderstanding and genocide. (It is what it is) Just think about it next time.

Would you buy anything with a swastika on it now? I doubt it. The swastika has been in use by several cultures for millenia and orignially meant peace and beauty in ancient asian cultures. (Bhuddists used it as a page mark for the beginnings of their written prayers and stories) Now it is a taboo symbol representing everything that is wrong with modern people. Somehow in this country that is overlooked. When I see the redskins helmet, i think of the the genocide that took place in this country because the nations were deemed as uncivilized, when they were actullaly more in tune with what was going on in the world than the wasichus. IF you want to read what really happened during the indian wars, check out " Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" and "Black Elk Speaks"-a primary source of information. Historians will tell you primary sources are considered the best form of evidence.

 

[GoshenGipper]

well i have several friends in college that went to gonzaga High and are huge Redskins fans and i cant tell you how many times we have had the drunken discussions, arguments, and fights over this. Redskins is by far the worst. It was an ignorant description of people deemed less than human and now it is used to as a marketing tool and objectifying symbol.

the Clevland indians follow a close second. It is not only the names but the mentality of the people in this country that still continues today that deems it ok to invent and use these objects to make money.

But how can you rationally love a moniker that was truly born from hate, misunderstanding and genocide. (It is what it is) Just think about it next time.

Read my previous posts if you didn't already, that might help explain our view point on Redskins.

 

[irish9331]

I'm Irish and I don't have a problem with Notre Dame's nickname.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

I'm Irish and I don't have a problem with Notre Dame's nickname.

Cause it's not a slur...nor did we exterminate the Irish in America.

 

[Satans Little Helper]

Names like the Redskins I think are offensive and the caricatures like the Cleveland Indians. If the Illinois (which is a bastardization of the tribal name) don't mind ( I believe the don't exist anymore) no harm no foul.

wigwam is offensive? Guess we can't go to the Igloo or yurt then either. Aren't we insulting the Middle English and Old French by referring to a tent. No, I'm not a Native American nor am I English or French nor Roman or Greek where most of our words came from.

Banning the word Brave was outright farcical. The word bravo (brave) was in both the Spanish and Italian languages before Columbus stumbled onto the New World. The Romans and Greeks had it in their language as barbarus and barbaros long before Leif Ericson missed Greenland.

More than 1500 years before Columbus Julius Cesear used the term to describe Vercingetorix and the "barbarians". The Ancient Greeks used their word to describe non-Greeks. It was actually meant as an insult.

If "Brave" is insulting they better not play the Star Bangled Banner at an NCAA Event.

Ban Redman or Redskins, I wouldn't like to be on the Fighting Whities but leave Brave for what it implies in the world today - courage.

Actually, most to all Native american Names are bastardized because white people only used phonetics to spell them.There werent alphabets for most tribes as everything wwas oral wnd very little was writtne down. The cherokees were one of the few that had a written alphabet and that was much later in time. for example Cherokee = Tsalagi

 

[Satans Little Helper]

Read my previous posts if you didn't already, that might help explain our view point on Redskins.

That is very good that you have the relic. I cant wait to pas down my rattle with the verbal story my grandmother gave me. I have a hard time though dealing with the way things happened. maybe its a chip on my shoulder, but the commercialization of their images is what really gets me. Especially after visiting the Oglala Pine ridge reservation and seeing what little those people have as they are still not recognized by the governement as a tribe and are not allowed to have gambling or other commercial institutions. They barely receive government support. As opposed to the tribes that are recognized and gambling places are allowed. These people actually have been able to open up their own banks, provide jobs and loans, buildi houses and provide quality education to their people.

Redskins is racist no mater how you cut it though. It was a derogatory term in the beginning and it still is today. Can you imagine..... and Now your Oakland Blackskins! yeahhhhhhhhhHH!

 

[cclanofirish]

Cause it's not a slur...nor did we exterminate the Irish in America.

Yeah that whole Protestant vs. Catholic thing never happened.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Yeah that whole Protestant vs. Catholic thing never happened.

There was no extermination of Irish in America.

"Fighting Irish"

Not "Papist Irish"
Not "Drunk Irish"
Not "Dirty Irish"

Fighting Irish.

Irish is a term to describe those from Ireland... It is NOT a racial slur.

Not like Redskin.

 

[cclanofirish]

There was no extermination of Irish in America.

"Fighting Irish"

Not "Papist Irish"
Not "Drunk Irish"
Not "Dirty Irish"

Fighting Irish.

Irish is a term to describe those from Ireland... It is NOT a racial slur.

Not like Redskin.

You realize I was joking right.... The smilies on the site suck.

 

[cclanofirish]

You realize I was joking right.... The smilies on the site suck.

Alright, so it was a bad joke, but alas, I am not the funniest guy in the room.

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

America, thankfully is a democracy. It pains me to see that a small % of people with particular views (regardless of type), can sway the majority by way of guilt or godforbid, the court system.
Isn't there more important things cities, colleges, and sports teams to do other than clean up symbols of christianity (its only christianity thats ever a problem!) or nicknames??

Once again, stop imposing minority views, and get over it!

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

You realize I was joking right.... The smilies on the site suck.

gotcha!

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

America, thankfully is a democracy. It pains me to see that a small % of people with particular views (regardless of type), can sway the majority by way of guilt or godforbid, the court system.
Isn't there more important things cities, colleges, and sports teams to do other than clean up symbols of christianity (its only christianity thats ever a problem!) or nicknames??

Once again, stop imposing minority views, and get over it!

So, if the minority thinks that the holocaust was not that big a deal, we should "get over it" and treat it like nothing?

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

America, thankfully is a democracy. It pains me to see that a small % of people with particular views (regardless of type), can sway the majority by way of guilt or godforbid, the court system.

In the case of the teams, it's not about the courts...it's about the NCAA.

Isn't there more important things cities, colleges, and sports teams to do other than clean up symbols of christianity (its only christianity thats ever a problem!) or nicknames??

Ummm...they don't. Private schools do what they wish. Public schools represent the people as a whole.

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

So, if the minority thinks that the holocaust was not that big a deal, we should "get over it" and treat it like nothing?

Only idiots believe that the holocaust never occurred(see president of iran). Although more than a few people today strongly believe that the US government was directly behind the 9-11 attacks. One can't change the past by trying to control how people think.

My point is that the majority should not suffer today, for sins of the past. Getting caught up in attempting to atone for prior wrongs does not change what occured. It only helps the mindset of "It makes me feel better".

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

In the case of the teams, it's not about the courts...it's about the NCAA.



Ummm...they don't. Private schools do what they wish. Public schools represent the people as a whole.

You're missing my point, which is........ Where does it end??????????
We have imminent domain cases all over (what happened to the bill of rights?), no-smoking laws affecting PRIVATE businesses and even those in a car by themselves!
Imposing views on others is a dangerous slope, and darnright unamerican!!

 

[Satans Little Helper]

Only idiots believe that the holocaust never occurred(see president of iran). Although more than a few people today strongly believe that the US government was directly behind the 9-11 attacks. One can't change the past by trying to control how people think.

My point is that the majority should not suffer today, for sins of the past. Getting caught up in attempting to atone for prior wrongs does not change what occured. It only helps the mindset of "It makes me feel better".

i nor anyone else should suffer from changing symbols. But whose right is it to use athose symbols. I think they lie with the people they describe.

I cannot help you are insensitive to the plight of a people who were genocidically removed from their land but to say what you are saying is really thoughtless, illogical, and un-nerving to say the least.

 

[Satans Little Helper]

You're missing my point, which is........ Where does it end??????????
We have imminent domain cases all over (what happened to the bill of rights?), no-smoking laws affecting PRIVATE businesses and even those in a car by themselves!
Imposing views on others is a dangerous slope, and darnright unamerican!!

and unquestioned patirotism, losing more and more rights under the Patriot Act every day, supporting dictators in other countries that help us and removeing them when they dont is as american as apple pie too i guess.

 

[cclanofirish]

and unquestioned patirotism, losing more and more rights under the Patriot Act every day, supporting dictators in other countries that help us and removeing them when they dont is as american as apple pie too i guess.

Wheres the line between protest and treason....or is that no longer an acceptable subject in society.

Also, the Patriot Act, while having many flaws and very serious abuses, there are some things in it that are incredibly necessary for the U.S. However, it does need to be reevaluated.

And on the issue of dictators, all I can say is: Hindsight is a bitch.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Only idiots believe that the holocaust never occurred(see president of iran). Although more than a few people today strongly believe that the US government was directly behind the 9-11 attacks. One can't change the past by trying to control how people think.

My point is that the majority should not suffer today, for sins of the past. Getting caught up in attempting to atone for prior wrongs does not change what occured. It only helps the mindset of "It makes me feel better".

I am not saying it's the same as saying it did not happen.

I am stating that it IS the same as if the Nazis had not been beaten and then they had soccer teams called the "Fighting Jews".

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

You're missing my point, which is........ Where does it end??????????
We have imminent domain cases all over (what happened to the bill of rights?), no-smoking laws affecting PRIVATE businesses and even those in a car by themselves!
Imposing views on others is a dangerous slope, and darnright unamerican!!

1) Eminent Domain is the right of the government to take land and redistribute it for the public good/need. That being said, Eminent domain is easily controllable by the people. So far the MAJORITY of the people must agree with the laws or they would be changed. In Oregon, we just passed a law limiting the right of Eminent Domain...ahhhh...there that was easy.

2) No smoking laws only occur on a public basis or for public reasons. And none of that pertains to people being offended by smoke.

Neither of the 2 above items you mentioned were legislated on "views".

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

i nor anyone else should suffer from changing symbols. But whose right is it to use athose symbols. I think they lie with the people they describe.

I cannot help you are insensitive to the plight of a people who were genocidically removed from their land but to say what you are saying is really thoughtless, illogical, and un-nerving to say the least.

Leave to those like yourselves who label others when they disagree with your views. I have a great deal of respect for those of all descent. Furthermore, any holocaust occuring under my watch, in my country, would be over my dead body.

I think we can agree to disagree about nicknames and whether or not they are proper. Be careful who and how you label because they differ from you.