Is it time for a change?

[ickythump1225]

Quite frankly, I'd rather not rely on one player to keep you in every game because if they don't show up and you're relying on them. There were a number of games last season where Tommy played a great game, but he never got the credit. He was the scapegoat, people only wanted to acknowledge him when things were bad.

Can't have it both ways though, that's my point. Last year everything was Tommy's fault, this season it's a "team effort." I agree with the team effort sentiment, I just find the hypocrisy silly. Golson is obviously a much better athlete, but he might be even more turnover prone at this point than Tommy. Golson probably struggles more with his progressions and pressure, and although he's able to get away using his feet sometimes, that also is what ends up leading to his turnovers often times.

Also, you do realize at this point in the season last year we were also 7-2 under Tommy? I would argue that for most of that season the defense was as good or worse than our current one. Better competition last season up to this point too, save for maybe Florida State.

Last year's team wasn't nearly as young. This years' team may be more explosive and talented but last year's team had a lot of players returning from a NCG.

Our two losses this year are against the best teams on our schedule and two top 10 teams...hell they both could be top 5 by Tuesday. We may have been 7-2 last year but who cares when we ended up losing to Pitt? We lost to a crappy Michigan team. This season with Tommy we don't beat Stanford and FSU is probably a laugher. We dropped 2 additional games after our 7-2 start. Granted the season isn't over but I doubt we lose 2 more.

 

[ickythump1225]

Hardly. I've been a fan since the early 1960's. Regarding 2012, I remember a defense that was successful in keeping other teams out of the end zone, a Butkus award winning linebacker who made several timely interceptions, a missed call in overtime involving two players with the same number, a goal line stand against Stanford, a quarterback that was limited in what he was permitted to do, and a much maligned back-up quarterback who emerged to save our *** whenever needed while maintaining a team first attitude throughout the season. The success of 2012 was the result of a strong defense and a little luck, not Golson's ability to play consistently and lead the team. Granted Golson did look good in a couple of those victories, but isn't that the definition of inconsistency: Looking good one game and horrible the next.

It is that inconsistency that will cost us two to four games this season and next. Today is a prime example. One half Golson looks like Devin Gardner and we fall behind by 31 points. The next half he starts off by throwing an interception at the goal line before turning his game around to lead a come back that fell short.

Blah blah blah... you said he couldn't lead us to 12-0 or even 11-1 but he did just that! You can back peddle and all you want but you started your rant on a false premise. Name me the other ND QB to lead a team to a national title game in the last 20 years.

 

[ulukinatme]

Last year's team wasn't nearly as young. This years' team may be more explosive and talented but last year's team had a lot of players returning from a NCG.

Our two losses this year are against the best teams on our schedule and two top 10 teams...hell they both could be top 5 by Tuesday. We may have been 7-2 last year but who cares when we ended up losing to Pitt? We lost to a crappy Michigan team. This season with Tommy we don't beat Stanford and FSU is probably a laugher. We dropped 2 additional games after our 7-2 start. Granted the season isn't over but I doubt we lose 2 more.

By this point last year we had 2 losses, one to a very good OU team that would beat 'Bama and a crummy defensive performance against that Michigan squad. We also had a win against the future Rose Bowl champion (Even if their offense was still evolving), a good ASU team, and an improving USC team with Kiffin out of the picture. The schedule up to this point last year was as tough or tougher than this year's. As far as Tommy not beating Stanford this year if he was QB, he scored more points last season against them and they were a better team last year...just sayin', I wouldn't make assumptions. I seem to remember him doing pretty well against them in 2012 to finish out the game too, but you know, we won that game so people forget.

 

[ickythump1225]

By this point last year we had 2 losses, one to a very good OU team that would beat 'Bama and a crummy defensive performance against that Michigan squad. We also had a win against the future Rose Bowl champion (Even if their offense was still evolving), a good ASU team, and an improving USC team with Kiffin out of the picture. The schedule up to this point last year was as tough or tougher than this year's. As far as Tommy not beating Stanford this year if he was QB, he scored more points last season against them and they were a better team last year...just sayin', I wouldn't make assumptions. I seem to remember him doing pretty well against them in 2012 to finish out the game too, but you know, we won that game so people forget.

Eh honestly I'm too tired to have this debate with a bunch of hypothetical scenarios and "what ifs". I'm not a Tommy hater, I actually respect the hell out of that kid. A true ND man. Tommy led us through what could have been a disaster last year.

 

[ulukinatme]

Eh honestly I'm too tired to have this debate with a bunch of hypothetical scenarios and "what ifs". I'm not a Tommy hater, I actually respect the hell out of that kid. A true ND man. Tommy led us through what could have been a disaster last year.

Yeah, I agree, and what-if scenarios never really work out like they should. It doesn't really have anything to do with people hatin' on Tommy last year, it's just the hypocrisy with some people's support of Golson this year that bothers me. We should support whoever is on the field honestly.

 

[phork]

You guys are crazy if you want anyone else playing QB right now. 2 of those INTs were tipped balls for pick sixes. Thats just luck that doesnt go your way. Think about this, it was 34-3 at one point, and before you knew it it was 34-31. C-Rob catches that ball and its a whole different result.

Listen we'd all like to see the team in the playoff this year. But we all knew that next year was going to be the legit run. Win out the games and go to a decent bowl game and beat whoever it is.

 

[ulukinatme]

I think next year's schedule will be more difficult than this year's overall, given the fact that teams like Michigan and Stanford didn't live up to their billing. Texas will be improved, there's Clemson away, Georgia Tech, USC should be better, not to mention Pitt and BC who always play us close.

 

[GoldenDome]

You guys are crazy if you want anyone else playing QB right now. 2 of those INTs were tipped balls for pick sixes. Thats just luck that doesnt go your way. Think about this, it was 34-3 at one point, and before you knew it it was 34-31. C-Rob catches that ball and its a whole different result.

Listen we'd all like to see the team in the playoff this year. But we all knew that next year was going to be the legit run. Win out the games and go to a decent bowl game and beat whoever it is.

Sorry but those tipped passes were not off luck. Golson had sloppy footwork and rushed both passes. Had he been precise on his 3 step drop, slowed down, the timing would have been there and he would have been deeper in the pocket. BK even told Golson after one of those pick six tipped ball plays to not rush it and slow down. He was clearly rattled the whole game and losing his mechanics.

The one turnover was CRobs fault, that was horrible. But Golson is to blame for the others. You can't run with the ball loose and you need to learn to slide and you need to throw the ball away.

Teams are collapsing the pocket and forcing Golson to make uncomfortable reads in the pocket. His vision is poor because he is short and the 3 step drops are so short. Kelly needs to play him under center, take long 7 step drops so he has plenty of space to step up. Golson is just too short to step up into a shallow pocket with 6'5 linemen. Either that or move the pocket, zone read, or RUN THE FUCKING ball.

The playcalling is a huge factor with Golson. During the game I kept thinking that with all these quick one read passes, Golson is going to get burned because teams are going to either lock in on the timing or db's are going to start jumping routes.

 

[Irish2155]

I haven't read through this, but saw that garbage title...who do you want chucking the rock for ND? EG had no time...and still made a lot of plays down the field.

I think you'd better be careful what you ask for, just might get a Malik pick six too.

EG really pisses me off when he fumbles. The picks, to an extent, I can deal with.

 

[BobD]

Q: Is it time for a change?
A: Only if this picture is your answer to termite control.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

EG is our QB and we should be grateful that he's ours. Golson wasn't the cause of every turnover, in fact we could likely only pin 1-2 on him. If we only turned it over 1-2 times in that game we win by two scores.

EG is our QB, no one on our roster is better than him. I'm excited fo Malik, when it's his time.

 

[CarrollVermin]

I don't know if it is time for a change or not, but EG has indeed regressed on the mental side of the ball. He has the physical attributes to be successful, but his understanding of the game is still lacking. I would think that going into Week 10 of the season he would be able to recognize a blitz and deal with pressure more appropriately. This is concerning. For all that BK is known for, QB development was at the top of the list...EG has done nothing to develop the mental side of his game all season long.

 

[Irish#1]

To answer the question in the OP, no. We're just going to have to live with Golson I mean he is 17-3 as a starter after all. I know he had some bad moments all of picks were weird. Two batted balls, one pick where he got hit from behind and then that last one where C-Rob bobbled the ball. That was a string of horrid luck. I mean horrible, terrible luck.

ASU didn't have anything to do with that? lol

I'm not advocating replacing Golson, but everyone should look at the issues as an entire package. Why are INT's acceptable but fumbles aren't? Neither should be and the number of batted balls are starting to come at an alarming rate. I see a regression or plateau instead of continued progress.

 

[EddytoNow]

Blah blah blah... you said he couldn't lead us to 12-0 or even 11-1 but he did just that! You can back peddle and all you want but you started your rant on a false premise. Name me the other ND QB to lead a team to a national title game in the last 20 years.

Are you seriously saying Golson lead us to the National Championship game in 2012? Even Coach Kelly has stated that Golson went along for the ride. Kelly knows how we got to that National Championship game. We got there on the back of our defense, plus the timely play of Tommy Rees in a couple of games where Golson could not move the team at all. Kelly had the reins.

And here's another statistic you seem to have forgotten. In Tommy's 2nd year he had 19 turnovers, 13 interceptions and 6 fumbles. Everyone was asking for the back-up to be given a chance (Golson-a True Freshman). The following year Tommy was no longer the starting quarterback, because those turnovers were costing us two to three games per year. How many turnovers does Golson have this year? How many is too many? The bottom line remains the same. We are not getting to the play-offs averaging 3-5 turnovers per contest, which reflects Golson's production over the last five games or so. With Golson turning the ball over we are 3-2 in those five games. Hardly play-off material.

 

[BobD]

When actions override ability you run into a few problems. Hang tough and we'll get there.

EG and our team are very good, but not quite ready for prime time.

GO IRISH GO!

 

[CarrollVermin]

When actions override ability you run into a few problems. Hang tough and we'll get there.

EG and our team are very good, but not quite ready for prime time.

GO IRISH GO!

That concerns me and befuddles me. He took a year off from football, spent it with The QB Whisperer and supposedly came back a gunslinger. Now he has regressed to what he looked like in his first three games of the 2012 season. His mental game is lacking and he has no recognition of what the defense gives him. Sorry, he is not a freshman completing his first year. This is year three (technically two) in the system. He doesn't have the mental ability to grasp what is going on and it is starting to catch up to him now. He is a liability that needs to be accounted for...and UL and USC will certainly take advantage of that.

 

[BobD]

That concerns me and befuddles me. He took a year off from football, spent it with The QB Whisperer and supposedly came back a gunslinger. Now he has regressed to what he looked like in his first three games of the 2012 season. His mental game is lacking and he has no recognition of what the defense gives him. Sorry, he is not a freshman completing his first year. This is year three (technically two) in the system. He doesn't have the mental ability to grasp what is going on and it is starting to catch up to him now. He is a liability that needs to be accounted for...and UL and USC will certainly take advantage of that.

For any QB to be great it takes the whole team. Peyton Manning with a so so O line is worthless.

 

[CarrollVermin]

For any QB to be great it takes the whole team. Peyton Manning with a so so O line is worthless.

Lets hold off on the philosophical responses until after I have had my coffee...haha.

Don't disagree, but EG just does not look coachable. Difficult to understand how someone continues to make the same mistakes week in and week out. That isn't team...thats on him.

 

[kmoose]

That concerns me and befuddles me. He took a year off from football, spent it with The QB Whisperer and supposedly came back a gunslinger. Now he has regressed to what he looked like in his first three games of the 2012 season. His mental game is lacking and he has no recognition of what the defense gives him. Sorry, he is not a freshman completing his first year. This is year three (technically two) in the system. He doesn't have the mental ability to grasp what is going on and it is starting to catch up to him now. He is a liability that needs to be accounted for...and UL and USC will certainly take advantage of that.

He's trying to do too much. There was at least one play in the 2nd half, where he probably could have hit Carlisle over the middle for a first down, but he held the ball, presumably waiting for something deeper to open up. Golson is still a very capable QB. But I think that the reason he is inconsistent is that he is very good when he is playing with poise, but he makes a lot of mistakes when he presses too hard.

 

[CarrollVermin]

He's trying to do too much. There was at least one play in the 2nd half, where he probably could have hit Carlisle over the middle for a first down, but he held the ball, presumably waiting for something deeper to open up. Golson is still a very capable QB. But I think that the reason he is inconsistent is that he is very good when he is playing with poise, but he makes a lot of mistakes when he presses too hard.

i would agree with this...so the question becomes, how do you develop him or the offense to help him overcome that?

 

[BobD]

Lets hold off on the philosophical responses until after I have had my coffee...haha.

Don't disagree, but EG just does not look coachable. Difficult to understand how someone continues to make the same mistakes week in and week out. That isn't team...thats on him.

That's why I said earlier "When actions override ability you run into a few problems."
Keeping actions from overriding ability are of course the responsibility of the QB, but the entire offense and the coaching staff dictate how far the QB has to stretch his ability.
Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck have both had disastrous days just like EG had yesterday.

 

[BobD]

If the O line could give us 1 or 2 seconds more we are 8 -1.

 

[pkt77242]

If the O line could give us 1 or 2 seconds more we are 8 -1.

It is just as easy to say if Golson could have gotten the ball out 1-2 seconds earlier we would be 8-1. Golson missed more than a few open WRs, and held onto the ball too long.

 

[pkt77242]

I haven't read through this, but saw that garbage title...who do you want chucking the rock for ND? EG had no time...and still made a lot of plays down the field.

I think you'd better be careful what you ask for, just might get a Malik pick six too.

EG really pisses me off when he fumbles. The picks, to an extent, I can deal with.

I disagree, EG has plenty of time on most plays (yes there was a couple where he had no time but that was not the standard) and held the ball too long and looked indecisive. Also he was rather inaccurate and missed a few open receivers that would have been huge gains (including on at least one long pass that would have been a TD). He also didn't see Koyak up the seem once or twice wide open.

I don't believe that we should bench EG now but if he has another game or two like this then it is time.

 

[pkt77242]

EG is our QB and we should be grateful that he's ours. Golson wasn't the cause of every turnover, in fact we could likely only pin 1-2 on him. If we only turned it over 1-2 times in that game we win by two scores.

EG is our QB, no one on our roster is better than him. I'm excited fo Malik, when it's his time.

I pin 4 on him (Robinson should have caught that damn ball) and we are damn lucky to have recovered his other fumble. He has 17 turnovers in 5 games. At what point is he responsible for his actions? At what point is he doing more harm than good for the team?

I am not for benching him yet but give me another game or two like this and you have to consider it.

 

[Grahambo]

It is just as easy to say if Golson could have gotten the ball out 1-2 seconds earlier we would be 8-1. Golson missed more than a few open WRs, and held onto the ball too long.

And where did you want him to throw it to? Most of the time he was under duress, the WR's weren't ready or were covered.

3 INTs weren't his. If Robinson catches the ball and the DL knock the ball down instead of tipping it up sky high, the game is significantly different.

He's a short QB, that's an issue with short QBs which is why, on short drops, the OL have to do a much better job at keeping the DL arms down.

 

[GoldenDome]

And where did you want him to throw it to? Most of the time he was under duress, the WR's weren't ready or were covered.

3 INTs weren't his. If Robinson catches the ball and the DL knock the ball down instead of tipping it up sky high, the game is significantly different.

He's a short QB, that's an issue with short QBs which is why, on short drops, the OL have to do a much better job at keeping the DL arms down.

I disagree. The play was designed for a slightly deeper drop and a passing lane had Golson not rushed the throw. The lane was there, receiver broke a little too early and it was just a matter of him needed to refine his footwork and not get too anxious.

But the second tipped pass, the play was doomed from he start. Had the dlinemen not tipped the pass, their was an ASU linebacker ready to take it to the house anyways.

 

[pkt77242]

And where did you want him to throw it to? Most of the time he was under duress, the WR's weren't ready or were covered.

3 INTs weren't his. If Robinson catches the ball and the DL knock the ball down instead of tipping it up sky high, the game is significantly different.

He's a short QB, that's an issue with short QBs which is why, on short drops, the OL have to do a much better job at keeping the DL arms down.

I disagree, because he is a short QB he needs to do a better job of throwing those passes, if the lane isn't there don't throw it. That is on him. That last INT wasn't on him (Robinson has to catch the ball). Short QB's get passes batted, it is what happens with short QBs but that doesn't mean it isn't his fault. The o-line can only do so much to keep a rushers hands down (especially since ASU seemed to be looking for the quick outside passes and was purposefully sending rushers from there to get in his throwing lanes).

Also there was many plays where a short route came open early and he didn't throw it, as he seemed to be waiting to see if a deeper rout would be open.

 

[pkt77242]

Is it just me or did it look like Cam was calling out the blitz pick-ups sometimes during the second half instead of Golson?

 

[ickythump1225]

Are you seriously saying Golson lead us to the National Championship game in 2012? Even Coach Kelly has stated that Golson went along for the ride. Kelly knows how we got to that National Championship game. We got there on the back of our defense, plus the timely play of Tommy Rees in a couple of games where Golson could not move the team at all. Kelly had the reins.

And here's another statistic you seem to have forgotten. In Tommy's 2nd year he had 19 turnovers, 13 interceptions and 6 fumbles. Everyone was asking for the back-up to be given a chance (Golson-a True Freshman). The following year Tommy was no longer the starting quarterback, because those turnovers were costing us two to three games per year. How many turnovers does Golson have this year? How many is too many? The bottom line remains the same. We are not getting to the play-offs averaging 3-5 turnovers per contest, which reflects Golson's production over the last five games or so. With Golson turning the ball over we are 3-2 in those five games. Hardly play-off material.

He was the starting QB wasn't he? History shows that we are capable of getting to the NCG with EG as the starting QB despite what you said to the contrary. I'm not going to get into Tommy Rees debate because that's just stupid. The past is the past on that one. Tommy Rees and Everett Golson are completely different QBs.