Honest Question...

[jpachuta33]

This summer was a tell all for me as it is clear that the University's administration is not invested in their football program. It is like they do not want the football program being bigger than the University. Reality is that we are at a disadvantage when it comes to NIL (not handing out money) and our academic standards; two things I love and what makes Notre Dame special. However, this past summer when we failed to hire Ludwig due to his buyout, it was an absolute slap in the face to anyone who has invested time and money into the football program & also, Sam Hartman. Not one Power 5 Conference wanted Gerad Parker as their OC. The home run hire was Ludwig, someone with lots of experience who could mentor Marcus throughout the season and could help elevate Sam Hartman. The administration failed to make that happen and its clear that mediocrity is okay with them.

So I ask you this... with our current administration, no matter the Head Coach, has Notre Dame football reached its ceiling with their football program in today's generation of football?

 

[NDQuebec]

Big picture is our actual coaching staff stinks. Maybe ND had reached its ceiling under Kelly with 10-2 wins and the occasional playoff. But the ceiling is getting lower and lower and that's not on the Administration. It's on Freeman and his own hand-picked staff. I don't buy this Ludwig hire fail. He never would have come anyway after going back home and giving it some thought. The only thing that is on the administration is hiring a green head coach. The rest falls on Freeman, the green head coach.

 

[LSWho?]

I fundamentally agree with the University's position on academic standards. Having no "Urban Meyer exemptions" should be a point of pride for the program. I also agree with the rough position they've worked out on NIL: we can help organize compensation for grad transfers and will help the team as a whole benefit from the collective, but we aren't handing out big money promises to 18-year-olds. I think this compromise is reasonable but will require further refinement. I do not believe the administration should buckle on either principle.

But they must be willing to compensate coaches for having to face these difficulties that the state schools and football factories don't face. You have to pay for Ludwig or someone better than Ludwig. You have to accept that because you demand more from your coaches, you must compensate them more than other coaches. It should be a point of pride for ND coaches that they win with these constraints, but they have to have a large war chest for hiring the best assistants possible.

 

[jpachuta33]

I fundamentally agree with the University's position on academic standards. Having no "Urban Meyer exemptions" should be a point of pride for the program. I also agree with the rough position they've worked out on NIL: we can help organize compensation for grad transfers and will help the team as a whole benefit from the collective, but we aren't handing out big money promises to 18-year-olds. I think this compromise is reasonable but will require further refinement. I do not believe the administration should buckle on either principle.

But they must be willing to compensate coaches for having to face these difficulties that the state schools and football factories don't face. You have to pay for Ludwig or someone better than Ludwig. You have to accept that because you demand more from your coaches, you must compensate them more than other coaches. It should be a point of pride for ND coaches that they win with these constraints, but they have to have a large war chest for hiring the best assistants possible.

100% Agree ^

 

[Irishdrunk]

This summer was a tell all for me as it is clear that the University's administration is not invested in their football program. It is like they do not want the football program being bigger than the University. Reality is that we are at a disadvantage when it comes to NIL (not handing out money) and our academic standards; two things I love and what makes Notre Dame special. However, this past summer when we failed to hire Ludwig due to his buyout, it was an absolute slap in the face to anyone who has invested time and money into the football program & also, Sam Hartman. Not one Power 5 Conference wanted Gerad Parker as their OC. The home run hire was Ludwig, someone with lots of experience who could mentor Marcus throughout the season and could help elevate Sam Hartman. The administration failed to make that happen and its clear that mediocrity is okay with them.

So I ask you this... with our current administration, no matter the Head Coach, has Notre Dame football reached its ceiling with their football program in today's generation of football?

THIS Summer? ROTFLMAO. No, LAST Summer told me everything I needed to know about their lack of commitment to the Program. Last night was the result of Swarbrick flinching up on a buyout. MF is not an active HC. He is Jack Swarbrick's bitch. Meaning, he got Marcus on the cheap and they fawn all over each other. Swarbrick got a cheap, well-liked hire with little to no regard that he has no experience or idea on how to coach a Top 10 program. Marcus got an opportunity at least 5 to 10 years earlier than he should have. No way should Marcus have been hired. Fickell was the hire that would have been sound.

No this Turkey is fucking Cooked. It was cooked LAST Summer. Forget about the future until further notice.

 

[jpachuta33]

THIS Summer? ROTFLMAO. No, LAST Summer told me everything I needed to know about their lack of commitment to the Program. Last night was the result of Swarbrick flinching up on a buyout. MF is not an active HC. He is Jack Swarbrick's bitch. Meaning, he got Marcus on the cheap and they fawn all over each other. Swarbrick got a cheap, well-liked hire with little to no regard that he has no experience or idea on how to coach a Top 10 program. Marcus got an opportunity at least 5 to 10 years earlier than he should have. No way should Marcus have been hired. Fickell was the hire that would have been sound.

No this Turkey is fucking Cooked. It was cooked LAST Summer. Forget about the future until further notice.

I respect your take... if Marcus Freeman was going to be your guy, you had to surround him with successful, experienced coaches (especially coordinators) to help groom him. On the flip side, this is Notre Dame, we should not hire HCs that need to be groomed... I get it.

 

[Irishdrunk]

I fundamentally agree with the University's position on academic standards. Having no "Urban Meyer exemptions" should be a point of pride for the program. I also agree with the rough position they've worked out on NIL: we can help organize compensation for grad transfers and will help the team as a whole benefit from the collective, but we aren't handing out big money promises to 18-year-olds. I think this compromise is reasonable but will require further refinement. I do not believe the administration should buckle on either principle.

But they must be willing to compensate coaches for having to face these difficulties that the state schools and football factories don't face. You have to pay for Ludwig or someone better than Ludwig. You have to accept that because you demand more from your coaches, you must compensate them more than other coaches. It should be a point of pride for ND coaches that they win with these constraints, but they have to have a large war chest for hiring the best assistants possible.

Yea you don't get it. Having an Urban Meyer exemptions or reworking NIL is typical ND nonsense and the stuff that limits ND from being as great it should be in football. Programs like OSU, MU, OU, LSU, Bama, FSU, UGA, ATM, USC will have no limitations and put forth resources in an unconstrained manner.

Urban will coach again and that is the type of move that will signal a program means business about getting after it. Its not in ND's current DNA. You need a wholesale change at the top. Its not happening. Disappointment will continue.

 

[LSWho?]

Yea you don't get it. Having an Urban Meyer exemptions or reworking NIL is typical ND nonsense and the stuff that limits ND from being as great it should be in football. Programs like OSU, MU, OU, LSU, Bama, FSU, UGA, ATM, USC will have no limitations and put forth resources in an unconstrained manner.

Urban will coach again and that is the type of move that will signal a program means business about getting after it. Its not in ND's current DNA. You need a wholesale change at the top. Its not happening. Disappointment will continue.

And you don't get Notre Dame.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

People forget to understand the limitations at Notre Dame are part of the reason it has been able to even have success. It’s a unique program that built its reputation offering something no other place can.

Despite these limitations that clearly put the ceiling you described lower than other schools, if there were no limitations, Notre Dame becomes Purdue with better uniforms.

No amount of NIL is going to make a kid live in a small, bad weather city in Indiana with far less night life and access to co-eds than other schools is sunny areas.

If they could hypothetically get the same offer closer to home in FL, GA, LA, TX, CA, etc. that still ends poorly for us.


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[Irishdrunk]

And you don't get Notre Dame.

I do. These are self-imposed constraints that limit our success at football. To expect any other result than being a Top 15 and not a Top 5 Program is the definition of insanity.

 

[stlnd01]

People forget to understand the limitations at Notre Dame are part of the reason it has been able to even have success. It’s a unique program that built its reputation offering something no other place can.

Despite these limitations that clearly put the ceiling you described lower than other schools, if there were no limitations, Notre Dame becomes Purdue with better uniforms.

No amount of NIL is going to make a kid live in a small, bad weather city in Indiana with far less night life and access to co-eds than other schools is sunny areas.

If they could hypothetically get the same offer closer to home in FL, GA, LA, TX, CA, etc. that still ends poorly for us.


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Yep. When it comes to attracting players, our biggest liability and our biggest asset are basically two sides of the same coin. That's fine. I can live with that, and as a Notre Dame alum and fan I'm proud we have the standards that we do.

And we didn't lose last night because of anything to do with roster construction. (except maybe the anemic WR room but that's not really been a recruiting problem, per se. We've actually recruited WRs pretty well the last few years, we just haven't developed them.). We lost because of abysmal offensive coaching and because our schedule set up to be a brutal grind in the middle of the season.

Those are both, essentially, self-inflicted wounds. And if we stop inflicting them, we'll be just fine and our ceiling remains what we thought it was.

 

[LSWho?]

I do. These are self-imposed constraints that limit our success at football. To expect any other result than being a Top 15 and not a Top 5 Program is the definition of insanity.

Of course they are self-imposed constraints. That is the definition of a standard.

 

[jpachuta33]

At Notre Dame, paying coaches should not be a self-imposed constraint/standard.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

At Notre Dame, paying coaches should not be a self-imposed constraint/standard.

Agree 100%. There is zero excuse our entire staff shouldn’t be top 10 highest paid across the board.

But we know the powers that be understand money from merch, tickets, etc. will never cease regardless of on field performance, and they clearly don’t give a rats ass what the on field product is


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[IA4irish]

My frustration is we never capitalized on two playoff appearances in three seasons (‘18 and ‘20). Most teams would’ve built off of this to turn into a perennial power. Instead, Recruiting was poor by Kelly during this period. He screwed us over by leaving for LSU. We went with the popular choice which was Freeman. He is completely in over his head. His career has been marred by lack of support from admin, inexperience, and now I legitimately worry he is losing the team. What a shit show this has become.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Independence comes at a high price. It’s clear to me ND can no longer afford that price.

Start w/ the opening game. Why the hell did they have to go to Ireland?! It is for their own amusement w/ zero regard for the “student athlete” as they embark on a gauntlet of eight straight games w/o a bye. In addition to all their other issues, they clearly looked gassed last night.

Independence means being forced to accommodate the opponents schedules. Being associated w/ the ACC means playing ~5 of their teams each year on their terms. It also means always being at the mercy of bad officiating w/ no power of holding them accountable when they screw up key calls on a consistent basis.

11-1 was always a long shot but let’s be honest, the CFP (& all the P5 conferences) would love nothing more than to keep ND out of the playoffs as long as they don’t have a conference championship to play for. So ND’s hopes were dashed on the final fateful OSU drive that gave the Irish a loss that has seemingly carried over these past two weeks.

Now that the B1G has added P12 schools, I think the time is right for ND to finally swallow their pride and join the conference. They‘d instantly be at an advantage b/c their football program is used to traveling multiple time zones throughout a schedule to play a national slate. This will be new territory for the other members. Most important they’d maintain their national appeal vs being regionalized by the old B1G footprint.

Like the mass majority of ND fans, I am not an alum. If the fan base were alums only it would be a very small fan base. Time to appeal to their universal fan base for once and go all in on football w/o having to sacrifice academics or integrity. Until they do, there’s no convincing the public that the athletic dept & university are doing what’s best for their student-athletes.

 

[stlnd01]

Now that the B1G has added P12 schools, I think the time is right for ND to finally swallow their pride and join the conference. They‘d instantly be at an advantage b/c their football program is used to traveling multiple time zones throughout a schedule to play a national slate. This will be new territory for the other members. Most important they’d maintain their national appeal vs being regionalized by the old B1G footprint.

Like the mass majority of ND fans, I am not an alum. If the fan base were alums only it would be a very small fan base. Time to appeal to their universal fan base for once and go all in on football w/o having to sacrifice academics or integrity. Until they do, there’s no convincing the public that the athletic dept & university are doing what’s best for their student-athletes.

FWIW I'm an alum, I was always a proponent of independence (I was a student when we thought hard about the Big Ten in the late 90s) and I basically agree with you. USC joining the B1G, oddly enough, was a game-changer for me. It became no longer a regional conference but a national one, and the one with the most schools we actually want to affiliate with. Not to mention our TV money would like double, which maybe would allow us to hire an offensive coordinator?

 

[IRISHDODGER]

FWIW I'm an alum, I was always a proponent of independence (I was a student when we thought hard about the Big Ten in the late 90s) and I basically agree with you. USC joining the B1G, oddly enough, was a game-changer for me. It became no longer a regional conference but a national one, and the one with the most schools we actually want to affiliate with. Not to mention our TV money would like double, which maybe would allow us to hire an offensive coordinator?

Agree. I was firmly against joining B1G until SC/UCLA were added. They’re just putting off the inevitable IMO. If they can ever get an leverage (don’t see that happening soon w/ a mediocre football program), they should negotiate a deal.

 

[Free Manera]

Academics are fine. NIL is fine. But the admin needs to outspend everyone on coaches and facilities to make up for the other limitations and they won’t. So the ceiling is making the playoffs once in awhile but never winning it all.

ND should have more and better analysts than anyone. More and better scouts and talent evaluators than anyone. The best coordinators and assistants money can buy.

Getting outbid is a joke. Balking at a buyout is a joke. Thus here we are.

 

[T-Boone]

How is that special teams coach going in the NFL. Why don’t we offer him double what he is on to come back and do special teams and line backers.

 

[Irishdrunk]

My frustration is we never capitalized on two playoff appearances in three seasons (‘18 and ‘20). Most teams would’ve built off of this to turn into a perennial power. Instead, Recruiting was poor by Kelly during this period. He screwed us over by leaving for LSU. We went with the popular choice which was Freeman. He is completely in over his head. His career has been marred by lack of support from admin, inexperience, and now I legitimately worry he is losing the team. What a shit show this has become.

Like him or not, Kelly had to keep asking for re-investment into the program. Go to a Bama game or OSU or elsewhere - the reinvestment at these programs into facilities, staffing and training was and in some areas still is way ahead of ND. Its not even close.

 

[Irishdrunk]

Of course they are self-imposed constraints. That is the definition of a standard.

A couple of the so-called Standards make sense, but others don't. Some of them are to rationalize a lack of reinvestment into program. In sum, Standards included, ND is not really serious about chasing a National Title despite giving lip service that a National Title contention is part of a so-called Standard. It is not.

Our Coaches and our Recruiting are clearly Top 15, not Top 5. That's just the way it is going to be when the BOT doesn't want to invest or be flexible on some of the Standards.

 

[Terry Jillery]

I fundamentally agree with the University's position on academic standards. Having no "Urban Meyer exemptions" should be a point of pride for the program. I also agree with the rough position they've worked out on NIL: we can help organize compensation for grad transfers and will help the team as a whole benefit from the collective, but we aren't handing out big money promises to 18-year-olds. I think this compromise is reasonable but will require further refinement. I do not believe the administration should buckle on either principle.

But they must be willing to compensate coaches for having to face these difficulties that the state schools and football factories don't face. You have to pay for Ludwig or someone better than Ludwig. You have to accept that because you demand more from your coaches, you must compensate them more than other coaches. It should be a point of pride for ND coaches that they win with these constraints, but they have to have a large war chest for hiring the best assistants possible.

Agree. You must overcompensate with elite coaching in order to succeed in spite of the challenges that ND has. Having the extra challenges that others don’t have and then selling out with inexperienced and affordable coaches is a recipe for failure. Our student athletes should have the very best coaches in the nation bc 1. It’s a blue-blood program and Notre Dame. 2. It’s a top 3 wealthiest P5 level university. 3. The aforementioned challenges that need to be overcompensated.

 

[InKellyWeTrust]

Yes, to the original question. I've been saying it for awhile now. This is not a serious football program in the 21st century. It's a program that rests on its tradition, and that tradition is fading.

 

[irishtrain]

This summer was a tell all for me as it is clear that the University's administration is not invested in their football program. It is like they do not want the football program being bigger than the University. Reality is that we are at a disadvantage when it comes to NIL (not handing out money) and our academic standards; two things I love and what makes Notre Dame special. However, this past summer when we failed to hire Ludwig due to his buyout, it was an absolute slap in the face to anyone who has invested time and money into the football program & also, Sam Hartman. Not one Power 5 Conference wanted Gerad Parker as their OC. The home run hire was Ludwig, someone with lots of experience who could mentor Marcus throughout the season and could help elevate Sam Hartman. The administration failed to make that happen and its clear that mediocrity is okay with them.

So I ask you this... with our current administration, no matter the Head Coach, has Notre Dame football reached its ceiling with their football program in today's generation of football?

THIS is the answer.

 

[AllTimeIrish]

I don't disagree with having high academic standards and not overpaying 18 year olds. I don't disagree we should hire good coaches, though that will just be harder to do because of the first two.

I think the reality of the situation is college football is becoming minor league pro football and players, coaches, etc are going to get paid. The model ND has formed will ensure they can never be truly competitive. And at some point in the future, when the end game of making college football a paid sport is completed, the league then forces ND out of playoff qualification unless they join an approved conference.

The interesting thing will be whether ND forms its own league, or capitulates and joins a conference. If they do, they will still face disadvantages of spending and tougher academic qualifications. ND's only other choice would be to form their own league with teams that feel left out of the new model.

I am not sure I see another path given what is going on with the college game, realignment, and money now.

 

[PigtownIrish]

We don't need to pay 18 year olds but we should not compromise on anything needed to support our athletes. This is 100% on Swarbrick. He's cheap and overinvolved in football coaching hires and lack of hires (why do we not have an army of analysts?). He didn't fulfill ND's contractual commitment to Kelly and facilities so LSU didn't even have to pay us a buyout. Do we really think under armor is the best gear for our athlete's success? Do we think Freeman and our other coaches have every top of the line resource available? Does Swarbrick ever attempt to address some of the egregious officiating problems with his dumb ACC deal, which has included some dangerous cheap shot hits on our players? He runs our athletic department like it's Walmart and is a condescending jerk to boot.

And yes this all comes back to the administration. The board aka shareholders are clearly fine with all of this. Not a single one of them will lose sleep over the fact that we promised Sam Hartman a pro style offense and delivered this turd.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Thanks Swarbrick

 

[BoredIrish]

Not paying for Ludwig was a fail. No doubt about that.
But wouldn't it be great to have an experienced offensive coach on board as an analyst right now? Isn't this exactly the situation where a veteran voice would make a huge difference? Other than money, why is there no one filling that role in the staff? To me, that is an even bigger fail because all the other top teams do it and other than money, there is absolutely no reason not to do it... Especially with a 2nd year HC and a 1st year OC.
Inexcusable IMO.

 

[NDWarrior]

One challenge is that the Saban strategy for this is all about rehab-ing an experienced coach's career (probably only types available for this kind of role rn), but if you step back a moment, why would a former coach rehab-ing his career come to a sinking ship? They would have to want the challenge of helping to turn things around (at a sinking ship?) vs. hanging on to Saban's coat tails, for example.