Gerad Parker - Troy Head Coach :)

[Giddyup]

Conclusive my ass

 

[NDFAN2008]

Harrison shoulda got called for a hold on the big run too in the first half that went for a touchdown

 

[theclassickiller]

Classic- he is obviously out of bounds in that frame from what I saw THE BALL was at the 18 yard line at the best position before he is hit by the defender.

That's the actual frame before he is out. He has not touched out of bounds before that.

 

[Sea Turtle]

Reminds me of superbowl 13. Everything went against Dallas and they still almost beat Pittsburgh.

On to Duke.

 

[NumbersGuy0520]

Seriously, if anyone here has minimal contact to the staff, can you just beg them to always QB sneak on 4th and 1, or at least ask why they don’t? Maybe with Mitchell Evans (wasn’t it like 3 of 4 last year). QB sneaks are the most successful scrimmage play in football.

I’m happy we tried it on our second 4th down attempt, but even that was poor execution (Sam basically tried to get all the way around the pile).

Run straight. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. We should not be running a play action that results in a Sam Hartman sprint to the sidelines, especially with the athletes OSU has.

It was painful watching the Eagles be successful with Hurts yet again last night and then immediately remembering how we schemed our attempts.

 

[theclassickiller]

Because is in his right arm, it never makes the line to gain.

It's possible you're right. I'm just saying that the NCAA rule reads that, in that frame, the ball is still in play. Tell me if I'm reading it wrong, but I don't think I am.

 

[IRISHMAN]

Yeah that was some bullshine reverse on that 1st down. No way you can tell unless you have a directly parallel 90 degree video shot.

this is why i didn't think the call would get overturned. yeah he was probably short but because their wasn't a camera right down the line im not sure you could say with 100% confidence that he was short.

 

[ab2cmiller]

So, is the ball spotted where the ball was when his foot actually touched out of bounds OR it's where the football was when the ball broke the vertical plane of the sideline?

 

[Giddyup]

What ever happened to a quick full back dive? Just recruit a big ass Alstott fullback.

 

[Giddyup]

William Henderson jr

 

[theclassickiller]

So, is the ball spotted where the ball was when his foot actually touched out of bounds OR it's where the football was when the ball broke the vertical plane of the sideline?

From what I can tell (admittedly not extensive research) the spot is in line with the ball when the ball is declared dead. I don't believe it is like the pylon in the endzone, which has to be crossed in-bounds. I could be wrong, I'm hoping someone can tell me, either way.

 

[forkbeard3777]

What ever happened to a quick full back dive? Just recruit a big ass Alstott fullback.

I honestly don't know the rule here...what requires a first down? Can the ball just cross the first down line? If the ball so, why not have Hartman, who is pretty athletic and agile, do a "Drew Brees" QB sneak - i.e., jump over the center and extend the ball? Brees was a master at it, but that was typically on the goal line.

 

[FDNYIrish1]

Seriously, if anyone here has minimal contact to the staff, can you just beg them to always QB sneak on 4th and 1, or at least ask why they don’t? Maybe with Mitchell Evans (wasn’t it like 3 of 4 last year). QB sneaks are the most successful scrimmage play in football.

I’m happy we tried it on our second 4th down attempt, but even that was poor execution (Sam basically tried to get all the way around the pile).

Run straight. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. We should not be running a play action that results in a Sam Hartman sprint to the sidelines, especially with the athletes OSU has.

It was painful watching the Eagles be successful with Hurts yet again last night and then immediately remembering how we schemed our attempts.

I got you fam. I’ll blast out a DM to MF on Twitter.

 

[Rockin’Irish]

So, is the ball spotted where the ball was when his foot actually touched out of bounds OR it's where the football was when the ball broke the vertical plane of the sideline?

My understanding it is where the ball is when the first body part touches out of bounds (in the case, Hartman’s foot) rather than the vertical plane of the sideline.

 

[Irish8248]

From what I can tell (admittedly not extensive research) the spot is in line with the ball when the ball is declared dead. I don't believe it is like the pylon in the endzone, which has to be crossed in-bounds. I could be wrong, I'm hoping someone can tell me, either way.

Easy solution-- don't let the refs have a say. You have 1 yd, you can't abandon everything until you get that yd. Going out of bounds instead of fighting for that yard was a poor decision.

 

[tko]

Can we stop saying, "line to gain?"

 

[Irish4life]

I'm starting to think about OC replacements already btw lol

 

[theclassickiller]

I honestly don't know the rule here...what requires a first down? Can the ball just cross the first down line? If the ball so, why not have Hartman, who is pretty athletic and agile, do a "Drew Brees" QB sneak - i.e., jump over the center and extend the ball? Brees was a master at it, but that was typically on the goal line.

When the ball crosses the goal line in a player's possession, it is dead. That's a touchdown, whether or not they pull it back or fumble it after that point. I'm pretty sure the same does not apply in any case in the open field. You can be pushed backward and maintain forward progress, but you can't voluntarily move the ball backward and also maintain forward progress. So in Hartman's case, he would have to hold that ball there until the play ended. That's my understanding.

 

[forkbeard3777]

When the ball crosses the goal line in a player's possession, it is dead. That's a touchdown, whether or not they pull it back or fumble it after that point. I'm pretty sure the same does not apply in any case in the open field. You can be pushed backward and maintain forward progress, but you can't voluntarily move the ball backward and also maintain forward progress. So in Hartman's case, he would have to hold that ball there until the play ended. That's my understanding.

Gotya.

 

[bumpdaddy]

It's possible you're right. I'm just saying that the NCAA rule reads that, in that frame, the ball is still in play. Tell me if I'm reading it wrong, but I don't think I am.

You aren't reading it wrong. It doesn't matter where the ball is while the play is still live. A player can catch a ball at his own 1-yard line, run down the sideline with the ball stretched over the out of bounds all the way to the opponent's 1-yard line before getting pushed out of bounds and the ball will NOT be placed where it first crossed out of bounds. It will be placed at its forward-most point when the player went out of bounds and the play becomes dead. The moment the player is out of bounds is when the play and ball are dead and that is the moment the ref is supposed to look at where the forwardmost part of the ball is and mark it at that spot.

The previous screenshot that you posted was close to showing the point where Hartman went out of bounds but it was actually a split second before. So even as conclusive as that picture looked, it's even clearer when you look a split second later when he actually touches out of bounds and the play becomes dead as seen here:



Hartman's foot is clearly past the 17-yard line. The forwardmost part of the football appears to be in front of his foot and actually looks closer to the 16-yard line than the 17, so if the refs thought they should respot the football, they should have respotted even more in ND's favor. But beyond doing that there is NO WAY they should have reversed the 1st-down spot on the field.

 

[GoIrish41]

You aren't reading it wrong. It doesn't matter where the ball is while the play is still live. A player can catch a ball at his own 1-yard line, run down the sideline with the ball stretched over the out of bounds all the way to the opponent's 1-yard line before getting pushed out of bounds and the ball will NOT be placed where it first crossed out of bounds. It will be placed at its forward-most point when the player went out of bounds and the play becomes dead. The moment the player is out of bounds is when the play and ball are dead and that is the moment the ref is supposed to look at where the forwardmost part of the ball is and mark it at that spot.

The previous screenshot that you posted was close to showing the point where Hartman went out of bounds but it was actually a split second before. So even as conclusive as that picture looked, it's even clearer when you look a split second later when he actually touches out of bounds and the play becomes dead as seen here:

View attachment 3054467

Hartman's foot is clearly past the 17-yard line. The forwardmost part of the football appears to be in front of his foot and actually looks closer to the 16-yard line than the 17, so if the refs thought they should respot the football, they should have respotted even more in ND's favor. But beyond doing that there is NO WAY they should have reversed the 1st-down spot on the field.

Im almost positive that it’s where the ball crosses the line that matters. Think punting the ball out of bounds and the ref running up the sideline to mark the line of scrimmages. Doesn’t matter where the ball lands, just where it was when it crossed the sideline.

 

[bumpdaddy]

Im almost positive that it’s where the ball crosses the line that matters. Think punting the ball out of bounds and the ref running up the sideline to mark the line of scrimmages. Doesn’t matter where the ball lands, just where it was when it crossed the sideline.

That's true for a punt but not for a player holding onto a football. The play is live until something - a body part or the football itself - touches out of bounds. At that moment the play becomes dead and the football is marked at its forwardmost point. We see players tiptoeing the sidelines all the time with the ball at times crossing the out of bounds mark but the ball is never retroactively marked back where it first crossed out of bounds. It is always marked where the ball was when a player actually goes out of bounds.

 

[Rockin’Irish]

That's true for a punt but not for a player holding onto a football. The play is live until something - a body part or the football itself - touches out of bounds. At that moment the play becomes dead and the football is marked at its forwardmost point. We see players tiptoeing the sidelines all the time with the ball at times crossing the out of bounds mark but the ball is never retroactively marked back where it first crossed out of bounds. It is always marked where the ball was when a player actually goes out of bounds.

This my understanding of how the rule is stated as well……I’ve heard this more than once during a telecast.

 

[GATTACA!]

That's true for a punt but not for a player holding onto a football. The play is live until something - a body part or the football itself - touches out of bounds. At that moment the play becomes dead and the football is marked at its forwardmost point. We see players tiptoeing the sidelines all the time with the ball at times crossing the out of bounds mark but the ball is never retroactively marked back where it first crossed out of bounds. It is always marked where the ball was when a player actually goes out of bounds.

I don't believe this is correct.

d. The most forward point of the ball when declared out of bounds between the goal lines is the point of forward progress (A.R. 8-2-1-I and A.R. 8-5- 1-VII) (Exception: When a ball carrier is airborne as they cross the sideline (including a striding runner), forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline (A.R. 8-2-1-II-III and V-IX).

 

[theclassickiller]

I don't believe this is correct.

Good find. I stand corrected. You totally could have BS'd that, but it sounds awfully official, so I'll believe you .

 

[theclassickiller]

I wonder, though, where does this stride start? Is it when Hartman's left foot leaves the ground? If the stride starts from the time the player truly becomes airborne, I feel it would have still been difficult to overturn that call. But it certainly becomes more understandable, now.

 

[bumpdaddy]

I don't believe this is correct.

You highlighted the wrong part:

d. The most forward point of the ball when declared out of bounds between the goal lines is the point of forward progress (A.R. 8-2-1-I and A.R. 8-5- 1-VII) (Exception: When a ball carrier is airborne as they cross the sideline (including a striding runner), forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline (A.R. 8-2-1-II-III and V-IX).

The forward progress rule does not include a striding runner. Hartman was a striding runner which means that part of the rule does not apply to that play.

 

[PutuporShutup]

Yeah , it’s where the ball is when player crosses oob line not where ball is when he lands oob.

Obvious play call, no deception, terrible play action fake, and Hartman has easy first if he doesn’t go oob.

 

[bumpdaddy]

The forward progress rule does not include a striding runner. Hartman was a striding runner which means that part of the rule does not apply to that play.

To add to this, here is an article from Referee.com that seems to confirm my interpretation of the rule. And here is the key quote:

Another thing that can happen on out-of-bounds plays is that you don’t process where the ball was when the runner stepped out of bounds. The proper spot is not where the runner went out of bounds, but instead is where the ball was when he did so. Depending on the runner’s position when he stepped out of bounds, the ball could be a good two or three feet beyond that spot, and that is where the ball needs to be spotted.

 

[Irishdrunk]

To add to this, here is an article from Referee.com that seems to confirm my interpretation of the rule. And here is the key quote:

unfortunately that definition still isn’t clear.