Foreign Policy

[drayer54]

If Drayer really wants everyone in Gaza wiped out, then shame on him.

"Or?" I posted my thoughts before. Go back and read them. Given Hamas doesn't want negotiations, they don't leave a lot of options for Israel to resolve this. How about providing us with your military plan for taking care of Hamas where the only lives lost will be Hamas or Israeli soldiers?

They don’t have one. They just want to paint the other side as extreme to excuse the large amount of people defending brutal tactics against Israel. They want political cover for the pro-Hamas wing of the party. You can’t attack people insulated under ground and covered with innocent people without casualties. They can take reasonable steps and offer notice and humanitarian corridors, which they are doing.
Hamas cant be negotiated with. They must be destroyed.

 

[Sea Turtle]

 

[Irish#1]

Hmmm where have I heard this logic before? Think some crazy guy was preaching this in the early to mid 1900's, wonder what he's up to now.

The actions of radicals in charge shouldn't mean that genocide is ok for the rest of the civilians. With this logic, Japan should have been nuked into oblivion instead of just two bombs.

I literally can't believe that I was framed as the bad guy, and you have someone on here literally preaching for genocide and saying all Palestinians just want violence and terror. But hey, I sourced a report that had a misleading title! Woo!


He saw a tweet about how a house rep wanted to turn Gaza into a parking lot and went on a rant about Left wing universities. He justified the statement, you don't want to see that because you choose not to.

Do you believe that 3.6K kids being killed is ok? Even if that numbers are buffed up, do you think it's wrong to question that? Am I wrong for saying that Israel is committing war crimes?

It shouldn't be controversial to say that what Israel is doing is incredibly wrong. Anyone with a pulse knows Hamas is terrible, but why does a government get a free pass to commit these crimes?

More than 3,600 Palestinian children were killed in just 3 weeks of war

More than 3,600 Palestinian children were killed in the first 25 days of the Israel-Hamas war, according to Gaza’s Hamas-run Health Ministry.

apnews.com

Here's some numbers from the US middle east combat - it took Bush and Barry 9 years to get to 1,200 Iraqi children. Israel has killed more than that in a month. This is many magnitudes worse than that. I think it's pretty universally accepted that what was done to civilians in the middle east was brutal.

Where Is the Outcry Over Children Killed by U.S.-Led Forces?

There can be no justification for the killing of children by U.S.-led forces in Syria, Iraq and other war zones since 9/11.

blogs.scientificamerican.com

I'm not an army general but I think even George Bush or Barry could do a better job protecting civilian lives than Bibi. How low of a bar to say that Bush values middle eastern lives more than Bibi.

Ah yes, the Toronto Vortex back in action. Don't answer the question, just reply with deflection. I'll go ahead and play, but I'd like for you to give me a direct answer to what military steps you would take.

1. I did say shame on Miller. Now that you criticized him, did I miss your criticism of Tlaib for her comments?
2. You do realize that we dropped the second bomb because Japan didn't surrender after the first bomb? Yet, Japan had somewhat rational leaders where they quickly realized they had to surrender or they were going to suffer further destruction. Where as there is no rational thinking from Hamas. They have no concern for human life and have made it clear they want to wipe our Israel.
3. I have never said I supported wiping out civilians, let alone kids and to ask if I believe it's okay, is just plain stupid on your part.
4. You keep telling us how you believe Hamas is terrible, but you continue to put Israel on blast, while Hamas continues to kill including babies. What's that telling us?
5. Hamas is fighting in tunnels, using hospitals as cover and using civilians and hostages as shields. Hamas is not going to negotiate, so I will ask again, what's your military plan where the only casualties are Hamas fighters and Israeli soldiers? Or, tell us your plan for getting rid of Hamas without any fighting. I get you're not in the military, but please share your plan for either of these questions.

 

[Irish#1]

NFL Shows Double-Standard in Israel Censorship, Ukraine Virtue-Signaling | Headline USA

(Jacob Bruns, Headline USA) The Left’s inability to come to grips with the Israel–Hamas conflict was once more on display last Sunday during an NFL game. Attending a Philadelphia Eagles game, George Norcross, a New Jersey businessman and Democrat Party organizer, was escorted out of the stadium...

headlineusa.com

 

[Sea Turtle]

NFL Shows Double-Standard in Israel Censorship, Ukraine Virtue-Signaling | Headline USA

(Jacob Bruns, Headline USA) The Left’s inability to come to grips with the Israel–Hamas conflict was once more on display last Sunday during an NFL game. Attending a Philadelphia Eagles game, George Norcross, a New Jersey businessman and Democrat Party organizer, was escorted out of the stadium...

headlineusa.com

The Democratic party is going to have to deal with the antisemitism that is running rampant throughout it.

 

[TorontoGold]

Ah yes, the Toronto Vortex back in action. Don't answer the question, just reply with deflection. I'll go ahead and play, but I'd like for you to give me a direct answer to what military steps you would take.

1. I did say shame on Miller. Now that you criticized him, did I miss your criticism of Tlaib for her comments?
2. You do realize that we dropped the second bomb because Japan didn't surrender after the first bomb? Yet, Japan had somewhat rational leaders where they quickly realized they had to surrender or they were going to suffer further destruction. Where as there is no rational thinking from Hamas. They have no concern for human life and have made it clear they want to wipe our Israel.
3. I have never said I supported wiping out civilians, let alone kids and to ask if I believe it's okay, is just plain stupid on your part.
4. You keep telling us how you believe Hamas is terrible, but you continue to put Israel on blast, while Hamas continues to kill including babies. What's that telling us?
5. Hamas is fighting in tunnels, using hospitals as cover and using civilians and hostages as shields. Hamas is not going to negotiate, so I will ask again, what's your military plan where the only casualties are Hamas fighters and Israeli soldiers? Or, tell us your plan for getting rid of Hamas without any fighting. I get you're not in the military, but please share your plan for either of these questions.

Adding context is not "Toronto vortex" - I will address any points you want.

The military steps I would take would be a bare minimum of following what (the worst US president of my lifetime) GWB administration would suggest. He killed significantly less children with his steps. That would be a start. From there I'm not sure what I would suggest in terms of military action.

1) The origins of the "river to the sea" are heavily debated in terms of the meaning behind them. I do think antisemites are using it for hateful purposes, but her intent as a Palestinian woman was for the emancipation of her people. I think intent matters in this case and she has not called for Israeli genocide.

2) Hamas is not remotely the same as the Japanese Empire from the 1940's. Gaza is not on an island with a proper army. The US could not shut off the power/water/flow of food into Japan.

3) You haven't called for that specifically - but saying "it doesn't leave many options" indicates an indifference towards the lives of Palestinians. So maybe you can clear it up - do you believe that Israel is valuing the lives of innocent civilians appropriately?

4) What do you mean by this statement? I am interpreting this as "Why don't you routinely condemn Hamas!", if you've missed it I've repeatedly stated they be removed and dealt with. I've stated that once you get rid of them you need to give Palestinians a reason to live because without that you'll just have Hamas v2 spawn in.

5) Where did I say "no fighting"? Why reframe my position in that way? Where do I indicate "without fighting" or just soldiers? I literally stated "Bush and Obama only killed 1,200 kids in Iraq, so maybe follow that" as a bare minimum.

Put it this way - if a group of terrorists took over library, you would not justify bombing the library to kill the terrorists.

 

[GATTACA!]

Straight facts.

 

[Irish#1]

Adding context is not "Toronto vortex" - I will address any points you want.

The military steps I would take would be a bare minimum of following what (the worst US president of my lifetime) GWB administration would suggest. He killed significantly less children with his steps. That would be a start. From there I'm not sure what I would suggest in terms of military action.

1) The origins of the "river to the sea" are heavily debated in terms of the meaning behind them. I do think antisemites are using it for hateful purposes, but her intent as a Palestinian woman was for the emancipation of her people. I think intent matters in this case and she has not called for Israeli genocide.

2) Hamas is not remotely the same as the Japanese Empire from the 1940's. Gaza is not on an island with a proper army. The US could not shut off the power/water/flow of food into Japan.

3) You haven't called for that specifically - but saying "it doesn't leave many options" indicates an indifference towards the lives of Palestinians. So maybe you can clear it up - do you believe that Israel is valuing the lives of innocent civilians appropriately?

4) What do you mean by this statement? I am interpreting this as "Why don't you routinely condemn Hamas!", if you've missed it I've repeatedly stated they be removed and dealt with. I've stated that once you get rid of them you need to give Palestinians a reason to live because without that you'll just have Hamas v2 spawn in.

5) Where did I say "no fighting"? Why reframe my position in that way? Where do I indicate "without fighting" or just soldiers? I literally stated "Bush and Obama only killed 1,200 kids in Iraq, so maybe follow that" as a bare minimum.

Put it this way - if a group of terrorists took over library, you would not justify bombing the library to kill the terrorists.

Adding context is the classic Toronto Vortex.

So clarify for me with some detail some of the steps GWB took that you would use?

1. She's not calling for genocide, yet her statement is pretty inflammatory and shows no concern for the Israeli citizens that have been killed.

2. What happened with Japan has nothing to do with Gaza and Hamas. You mentioned it and now you say Hamas is nor remotely the same as the Japanese empire. Why bring it up in the first place?

3. To say "it doesn't leave options" indicates an indifference towards the lives of Palestinians" is BS. Regardless of nationality, I don't want to see another innocent citizen killed. I'll repeat, Regardless of nationality, I don't want to see another innocent citizen killed. Let that sink in for a minute. Yet if we use your logic, then one would wonder why you are so defiant of Israel? I don't claim to have all the answers or be the smartest guy in the room, but when I look at how Hamas operates and what they continue to do, I don't see a lot of options. Apparently using standard ground warfare in Gaza would result in a lot of Israeli soldiers losing their lives. You might be shocked by this, but Israel cherishes the lives of their citizens more than they cherish the lives of Palestinians.

4. Yes, you have said Hamas needs to be dealt with, but your posts are all about how Israel is the bad guy.

5. You gave a generalized response, so I gave you a second option to choose from. Here's a key difference with what Bush and Obama dealt with. They were not fighting a war where they enemy was fighting from underground tunnels.

Put it this way - if a group of terrorists were hiding in tunnels all over the country and using innocent people as protection, how would you eradicate the terrorist?

 

[TorontoGold]

Adding context is the classic Toronto Vortex.

So clarify for me with some detail some of the steps GWB took that you would use?

1. She's not calling for genocide, yet her statement is pretty inflammatory and shows no concern for the Israeli citizens that have been killed.

2. What happened with Japan has nothing to do with Gaza and Hamas. You mentioned it and now you say Hamas is nor remotely the same as the Japanese empire. Why bring it up in the first place?

3. To say "it doesn't leave options" indicates an indifference towards the lives of Palestinians" is BS. Regardless of nationality, I don't want to see another innocent citizen killed. I'll repeat, Regardless of nationality, I don't want to see another innocent citizen killed. Let that sink in for a minute. Yet if we use your logic, then one would wonder why you are so defiant of Israel? I don't claim to have all the answers or be the smartest guy in the room, but when I look at how Hamas operates and what they continue to do, I don't see a lot of options. Apparently using standard ground warfare in Gaza would result in a lot of Israeli soldiers losing their lives. You might be shocked by this, but Israel cherishes the lives of their citizens more than they cherish the lives of Palestinians.

4. Yes, you have said Hamas needs to be dealt with, but your posts are all about how Israel is the bad guy.

5. You gave a generalized response, so I gave you a second option to choose from. Here's a key difference with what Bush and Obama dealt with. They were not fighting a war where they enemy was fighting from underground tunnels.

Put it this way - if a group of terrorists were hiding in tunnels all over the country and using innocent people as protection, how would you eradicate the terrorist?

1) I think judging her based on showing no concern for Israeli's is rich, considering we know how many Palestinians have been killed. Any sympathy given to them is treated as "antisemitism", so I won't judge her on timing of her comments as she is also dealing with grief.

2) I brought up Japan because of how if we're to take the logic of any means necessary then it would have been justified to nuke it into oblivion.

3) How is it BS? You have yet to show any concern for the actions of the Israeli army. Believe it or not, I think all armies should follow the Geneva Conventions. I am so defiant of Israel because of the concerns that the UN has raised, what issues are there with what the UN has said?

Lol I am very aware of Israel not valuing the lives of Palestinians. Incredible that you don't recognize that Israel is the occupying power of Palestinian people and they should provide them with basic human rights.

4) You want me to detail how radical religious terrorists are bad? Is it not self explanatory? What part of "they should be wiped out" needs to be clarified?

5) Saddam had a bunker? What's Inside Saddam's Bunker?

I wouldn't bomb the tunnels and risk killing the innocent people. I would starve them out forcing them to the table. Do you disagree with my approach, if so, why?

 

[GATTACA!]

I wouldn't bomb the tunnels and risk killing the innocent people. I would starve them out forcing them to the table. Do you disagree with my approach, if so, why?

What table? Unfortunately there is no negotiating with these people. Even if the Jews gave them all of of Israel they wouldn't stop. This isn't a territorial dispute, they want to eradicate all Jewish people.

 

[Sea Turtle]

What table? Unfortunately there is no negotiating with these people. Even if the Jews gave them all of of Israel they wouldn't stop. This isn't a territorial dispute, they want to eradicate all Jewish people.

First the Saturday people. Then the Sunday people

 

[TorontoGold]

What table? Unfortunately there is no negotiating with these people. Even if the Jews gave them all of of Israel they wouldn't stop. This isn't a territorial dispute, they want to eradicate all Jewish people.

You get the hostages from them and then execute the leadership. Do what needs to be done to get the hostages, and then grant Palestinian citizens the same rights as Israeli citizens. If they're going govern them then they should be granted the same rights. The kids growing up won't become radicalized as easy if they are given basic human rights.

Pretty simple solution but there's no support for this from the far right Israeli government. Bibi was facing a ton of internal pressure before this. He has installed radicals in important positions that Israeli's do not like. Ben-Gvir who idolizes a terrorist is the minister of national defense. You can not have rational decisions made by people like this. So I don't expect anything to change when radicals are in charge. When dealing with a radical group of religious fundamentalists you can't give them fodder to grow their movement.

The best way to protect jewish citizens is to not foster environments for terrorism to thrive. Don't give Hamas anything and treat them brutally, but treat the innocent Palestinian people with compassion and basic human rights. This isn't a controversial opinion nor is it pro-Hamas, follow the Geneva Conventions and advocate emancipation for all peoples and you'll have a better world.

You haven't made this point, but I think it's ghoulish that people on this forum are actively making statements like "Palestinians just bring crime wherever they go" - this is the exact same language that people used to justify the holocaust. I think it's cowardice by those that have chastised me in the past for being critical of Israeli government have not called out that post from Sea Turtle. That is an openly genocidal comment.

 

[ulukinatme]

It’s just continues to reinforce for me how “gone” the far left wing types are on some issues. These are the kind of people they are out there supporting with no semblance of shame:


You see insane stuff on college campuses where you can get disciplined for accidentally using the wrong pronoun but burning children alive is “justified.”

Extremism is getting out of hand in general. It's hard to believe what's going on with people today.

 

[dublinirish]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ulukinatme]

This is what Hamas is doing to palestinian civilians who are trying to flee instead of being human shields.

This was originally reported by Palestinian authorities as IDF bombardment killing innocent Palestinians...no signs of explosives at all.

 

[Irish#1]

You get the hostages from them and then execute the leadership. Do what needs to be done to get the hostages, and then grant Palestinian citizens the same rights as Israeli citizens. If they're going govern them then they should be granted the same rights. The kids growing up won't become radicalized as easy if they are given basic human rights.

Pretty simple solution but there's no support for this from the far right Israeli government. Bibi was facing a ton of internal pressure before this. He has installed radicals in important positions that Israeli's do not like. Ben-Gvir who idolizes a terrorist is the minister of national defense. You can not have rational decisions made by people like this. So I don't expect anything to change when radicals are in charge. When dealing with a radical group of religious fundamentalists you can't give them fodder to grow their movement.

The best way to protect jewish citizens is to not foster environments for terrorism to thrive. Don't give Hamas anything and treat them brutally, but treat the innocent Palestinian people with compassion and basic human rights. This isn't a controversial opinion nor is it pro-Hamas, follow the Geneva Conventions and advocate emancipation for all peoples and you'll have a better world.

You haven't made this point, but I think it's ghoulish that people on this forum are actively making statements like "Palestinians just bring crime wherever they go" - this is the exact same language that people used to justify the holocaust. I think it's cowardice by those that have chastised me in the past for being critical of Israeli government have not called out that post from Sea Turtle. That is an openly genocidal comment.

How do you get the hostages from them?

 

[dublinirish]

How do you get the hostages from them?

exchange for Hamas prisoners being held in Israel is what is being offered

 

[ab2cmiller]

exchange for Hamas prisoners being held in Israel is what is being offered

Back in 2011 Israel had to give up 1,000 Palestinian prisoners for 1 hostage.

 

[drayer54]

Weakness in Washington is putting Americans at risk

 

[Sea Turtle]

Weakness in Washington is putting Americans at risk

I don't think anybody believes that the world going to pot once Biden took over is a coincidence. You don't even have to be a Trump supporter to acknowledge that.

 

[drayer54]

This tweet is still up.

 

[ulukinatme]

This tweet is still up.

The best time to take that down was when Community Notes debunked it weeks ago. The second best time is now.

 

[ulukinatme]

Back in 2011 Israel had to give up 1,000 Palestinian prisoners for 1 hostage.

And many of those Hamas prisoners committed further acts of violence once they were released.

 

[Irish#1]

3) You haven't called for that specifically - but saying "it doesn't leave many options" indicates an indifference towards the lives of Palestinians. So maybe you can clear it up - do you believe that Israel is valuing the lives of innocent civilians appropriately?

Hope this clears it up.

Israel has ordered a full siege of Gaza. More innocent people are about to die.

I don't have a solution because I don't think there is an easy one. Basic human rights for Palestinians? Couldn't agree more. Even if those are provided, I don't think it fixes the problem. This is as much a religious issue as anything and we've seen that none of the religious fanatics are willing to give an inch.

Maybe Israel takes back Gaza and gives Palestinians the same amount of land next to Jordan or Lebanon? Then they could travel more freely. What we need is Henry Kissinger to fix this.

Agree 100%, but regardless of what might take precedent over religion, it doesn't change the fact this has its roots in religion. The entire ME is a conflict over religion.

No one posting here is in favor of any collateral damage, but there are some instances where there are no other options. Going door to door asking if there are any Hamas hiding in their home isn't going to work and only increases the chances of even a greater number of deaths.

I guess it depends on how one views it. Hamas as a threat, isn't at the same level as Israel in that they couldn't wipe out Israel within a short period of time, but I don't see Israel as one that is determined to wipe out a country either. If Hamas was wiped out, I could see Israel providing more aide to Palestinians. I don't think there will ever be peace in the ME.

It’s all tragic and there’s going to be a lot more innocent people killed before it’s over. Unfortunately one side is irrational and has a total disregard for life. That leaves very few options for dealing with this.

I like Toronto's idea of the UN, but think now may be the time rather than wait.

Palestinians circumstances in Gaza aren’t due totally to Israel. Israel has been providing to Gaza. The expert in the one article I posted specifically said that Hamas was benefiting from the aid Israel was providing to Gaza.

How can anyone be okay with this?

 

[ulukinatme]

I don't personally think Israel is indifferent to the lives of Palestinians. They gave fair warning to evacuate before the siege started. Hamas did not when they began their initial attack, and they specifically targeted civilians.

 

[Irish#1]

I don't personally think Israel is indifferent to the lives of Palestinians. They gave fair warning to evacuate before the siege started. Hamas did not when they began their initial attack, and they specifically targeted civilians.

Still amazed how people are upset with Israel more than Hamas and their brutality.

 

[ab2cmiller]

I don't personally think Israel is indifferent to the lives of Palestinians. They gave fair warning to evacuate before the siege started. Hamas did not when they began their initial attack, and they specifically targeted civilians.

You left off the part where Hamas instructed people to stay as human sacrifices.

 

[Sea Turtle]

Still amazed how people are upset with Israel more than Hamas and their brutality.

How dare the Jews fight back.

 

[ulukinatme]

You left off the part where Hamas instructed people to stay as human sacrifices.

Tough situation, but I'm out of there the moment I know that situation is escalating. I'd probably try to escape under the cover of darkness if I'm fearing getting gunned down by Hamas as a sacrifice.

 

[IRISHDODGER]