Dan Fox > Carlo Calabrese

[IrishLax]

At least at this junction. I'm reading that in all of the Crist vs. Rees stuff that it was completely missed that Slaughter is starting over Motta and Fox over Calabrese. I think the more interesting one here is Fox over Calabrese because you know Motta and Slaughter are going to basically split.

I've said time and time again I have two huge concerns in this defense. The first is that an injury to Gary Gray or Robert Blanton puts us in hot water as we are very far from deep at CB. The second is that Brian Smith played like a total beast in those last 4 games and replacing him is no easy task. For example, check out the highlights of the USC game and see him making plays all over the field (in both coverage and attacking the line of scrimmage):
<object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/C_Lrrkrn480?version=3&hl=en_US&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/C_Lrrkrn480?version=3&hl=en_US&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="390" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

So you have Carlo Calabrese who is great at taking on and defeating blocks but struggles in coverage and doesn't move laterally very well. And then you have Dan Fox, who seems to cover better but isn't nearly the run stuffer that Carlo is. Suffice to say I am intrigued but pessimistic about how this two headed monster is going to perform this year. And that just may be our Achilles' Heel.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Relax.

Foxy needed to improve his physicality, and Calabrese needed to improve in coverage. Kelly specifically praised Fox's improved physicality today; it's probably safe to assume that he improved against the run more than Carlo improved in coverage, which is why he earned the "starter" designation.

But Diaco later said he doesn't even consider Carlo and Fox to be 1(a) and 1 (b); more like 1 and 1. Both guys will play a lot.

This is a good thing. We'll finally be able to use our personnel situationally this season, so everyone is playing to their strengths.

 

[Buster Bluth]

But Diaco later said he doesn't even consider Carlo and Fox to be 1(a) and 1 (b); more like 1 and 1. Both guys will play a lot.

This is a good thing. We'll finally be able to use our personnel situationally this season, so everyone is playing to their strengths.

/thread

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Relax.Foxy needed to improve his physicality, and Calabrese needed to improve in coverage. Kelly specifically praised Fox's improved physicality today; it's probably safe to assume that he improved against the run more than Carlo improved in coverage, which is why he earned the "starter" designation.

But Diaco later said he doesn't even consider Carlo and Fox to be 1(a) and 1 (b); more like 1 and 1. Both guys will play a lot.

This is a good thing. We'll finally be able to use our personnel situationally this season, so everyone is playing to their strengths.

^This

 

[IrishLax]

You guys get it, but you're also missing my main point. I want ONE GUY who can do everything. Cover, stuff the run, move laterally, etc. etc.

Because no matter what way you slice it there are going to be plays where Carlo is on the field and they end up throwing the ball; and Foxy is on the field when they run it. Having two B quality linebackers with some flaws is not my idea of a "weakness."

 

[NDinL.A.]

You guys get it, but you're also missing my main point. I want ONE GUY who can do everything. Cover, stuff the run, move laterally, etc. etc.

Because no matter what way you slice it there are going to be plays where Carlo is on the field and they end up throwing the ball; and Foxy is on the field when they run it. Having two B quality linebackers with some flaws is not my idea of a "weakness."

Makes sense. And I agree, that would be ideal. Other teams have that, so it'd be nice to have as well. Unfortunately we don't have a Manti Te'o at that spot, or even a guy that is really good/comfortable at both. Gotta go with the cards that are dealt, and hope one of them improves. Remember, both have 2-3 yrs of eligibility left...

 

[NDOM]

Makes sense. And I agree, that would be ideal. Other teams have that, so it'd be nice to have as well. Unfortunately we don't have a Manti Te'o at that spot, or even a guy that is really good/comfortable at both. Gotta go with the cards that are dealt, and hope one of them improves. Remember, both have 2-3 yrs of eligibility left...

This.

 

[BabyIrish]

At the presser, BK made it seem like Fox was the "ONE GUY" who could do everything. He said he improved his physicality so he could have the run stopping capability needed for the position. I'm excited to see what this kid can do.

 

[Ricochet]

The staff has made it clear is that less is more and that they want to go with a heavy rotation if the talent is there.

So as the program moves forward under Kelly & Co. and the talent level rises we are going to see a lot more of this 1 and 1a players more or less sharing a position.

Also don't mistake more development time for a prospect as not being top quality. Maybe Fox is the complete player that you want it just took him longer to develop to become that player.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Of course it'd be nice to have a 5 do-it-all bad as$ at the Will, but no program has that kind of talent at every spot.

Rivals gave Foxy 4 and Scout gave Carlo a 4; the other two sites gave them both 3. It's very possible that neither of them will develop into a clear #1 Will. Having them press each other and swapping them out situationally may be the best use of their talents.

I'd say the Will is one of the less important positions in Diaco's system as well, so if we're going to have 3 talents sharing reps anywhere, that's not a bad place for it.

Also consider that the Will ends up in coverage frequently so Foxy's ascension probably shouldn't be that surprising.

 

[BurningRiver]

Fox went to my high school. I saw him on campus a few times over the summer working out. He's gotten huge.

 

[Old Man Mike]

My take on this is an idiosyncratic synthesis of several of the things already referred to in this thread:

A). the defense's renaissance last season was due as much to Brian Smith's shift to Will as anything. It was his lateral mobility which was the key. This to me indicated "effective game speed" during real playing conditions. As someone pointed out in another thread, I have advocated the insertion of a laterally faster player at Will for some time, and "recommended" Fox or Shembo.

B). Fox IS the player [other than a Shembo or a Spond or a Niklas, maybe a Rabasa] who can "do both" the speed and the power elements of the job. I do not believe that Calabreese can get there on the speed side. [i.e. lateral closing].

C). My long-stated preferences for our defense have been in the "Speed trumps mass-muscle" school of future defensive strategy. The guys that I listed above all personify that more than does Carlo, I believe.

D). Diaco has apparently had his doubts about Carlo all along. We remember than he had McDonald at the Will last season ahead of Calabreese. Only injury got Carlo his chance. Diaco must see some deficiency that he does not see [at least in potential] in Fox.

This news therefore comes as welcome by me. My greatest concern defensively has been the void left by Brian Smith. It is hard to express how ...well...just great he was once he settled into the Will late last year. He made plays EVERYWHERE. I just hope that Dan Fox can imitate him at least a little. Go, big Dan!! Your "ascension" has made me more comfortable about our defense dominating.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I think come game time Carlo will be a fantastic "third-and-short" MLB; if it's an obvious run situation he'll he in there pronto. He's like the anti-fullback haha. Fox is just a more complete LB and thus he will see the field more.

I think we'll still see some of this: #44 Cal - ND ILB Carlo Calabrese Rips Head Off Stanford FB 2010 - YouTube

 

[koonja]

I apologize if this is buried in a thread somewhere, but how does MacDonald figure into this? I know he's healthy now.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I think come game time Carlo will be a fantastic "third-and-short" MLB; if it's an obvious run situation he'll he in there pronto. He's like the anti-fullback haha. Fox is just a more complete LB and thus he will see the field more.

I think we'll still see some of this: #44 Cal - ND ILB Carlo Calabrese Rips Head Off Stanford FB 2010 - YouTube

Can't believe the refs gave them a 1st down there. Total BS.

I apologize if this is buried in a thread somewhere, but how does MacDonald figure into this? I know he's healthy now.

Battling Kendall Moore for the #2 Mike, last we heard.

 

[GoldenDomer87]

You guys get it, but you're also missing my main point. I want ONE GUY who can do everything. Cover, stuff the run, move laterally, etc. etc.

Because no matter what way you slice it there are going to be plays where Carlo is on the field and they end up throwing the ball; and Foxy is on the field when they run it. Having two B quality linebackers with some flaws is not my idea of a "weakness."

Not too many players exist like that. I think every school has issues, we just over analyze because we are constantly watching. If Foxy gets up to 250, he will be our Will of the future. He is up to 240, I think, now so he is getting there. Calabrese, I just don't see him developing the coverage ability.

Edit: Even Manti gets lost in coverage sometimes and he is arguably the best lb in football.

 

[koonja]

I feel like I'm the only one on this site that isn't sure of what the Cat, Dog, Will and Mike linebacker's responsibilities are/where they line up. Cat and Dog are on the outside, correct? Which one's strong side? What differentiates a Will from a Mike?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I feel like I'm the only one on this site that isn't sure of what the Cat, Dog, Will and Mike linebacker's responsibilities are/where they line up. Cat and Dog are on the outside, correct? Which one's strong side? What differentiates a Will from a Mike?

Dog is strongside OLB: a hybrid S/LB role. Ends up covering TEs frequently, so must be good in coverage.

Mike is the strongside ILB. "QB" of the linemen; reads the offense and calls for shifts. Primarily involved in stopping the run (and blowing up screen passes, which is Manti's bread and butter.)

Will is the weakside ILB. Spends a lot of time in coverage and "flowing" to the ball, so athleticism is more important than size/ physicality.

Cat is the weakside OLB: a hybrid DE/ LB role. Frequently plays with a hand on the ground; the Cat's presence on the line determines whether we're in a 3-4 or 4-3 look. Must be able to rush the passer, set the edge against runs, and cover short receiver routes; a very unique skillset, which is why it's hard to find players athletic enough to play this position. Arguably the most important position in Diaco's scheme.

 

[koonja]

Dog is strongside OLB: a hybrid S/LB role. Ends up covering TEs frequently, so must be good in coverage.

Mike is the strongside ILB. "QB" of the linemen; reads the offense and calls for shifts. Primarily involved in stopping the run (and blowing up screen passes, which is Manti's bread and butter.)

Will is the weakside ILB. Spends a lot of time in coverage and "flowing" to the ball, so athleticism is more important than size/ physicality.

Cat is the weakside OLB: a hybrid DE/ LB role. Frequently plays with a hand on the ground; the Cat's presence on the line determines whether we're in a 3-4 or 4-3 look. Must be able to rush the passer, set the edge against runs, and cover short receiver routes; a very unique skillset, which is why it's hard to find players athletic enough to play this position. Arguably the most important position in Diaco's scheme.

That all makes sense. Thanks for the info.

 

[Ironman8]

Whiskey, I would simply differentiate strongside and weakside vs. field and boundary. While most fans are more familiar with the former, ND coaches employ their LBs in terms of the latter.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Whiskey, I would simply differentiate strongside and weakside vs. field and boundary. While most fans are more familiar with the former, ND coaches employ their LBs in terms of the latter.

I'm under the impression that "field" and "boundary" as designations are typically reserved for secondary players, namely CBs; whereas "strongside" and "weakside" are used for linemen. Diaco's system includes a Will, which stands for Weak Inside Linebacker.

 

[IrishLax]

Not too many players exist like that. I think every school has issues, we just over analyze because we are constantly watching. If Foxy gets up to 250, he will be our Will of the future. He is up to 240, I think, now so he is getting there. Calabrese, I just don't see him developing the coverage ability.

Edit: Even Manti gets lost in coverage sometimes and he is arguably the best lb in football.

You're correct, so let me rephrase.

Brian Smith over the last 4 games (aka when our defense was BEAST) played at an A/A+ level every game. He broke up passes, stuffed runs, defeated blocks, pursued plays... basically executed his responsibility to a T on every play. His impact performance was the single biggest reason (although there were many others) why our defense went from pretty good to great. On many levels, he outplayed Manti.

I agree with you that most schools cannot find a guy who can play at an A/A+ level and have weaknesses. But my point is that, if we're looking for a reason why this team won't play at a world-beater level (which I am), this has to be your biggest concern. I'm not looking for a guy to be flawless, but I would've felt much better with Carlo being named the starter and Kelly saying "Carlo has looked great and really improved in coverage" than Foxy coming out of nowhere to win the job.

Am I freaking out about it? No. But I think it's a good point for discussion. This defense will go the way of Manti/Harrison Smith/Gary Gray/Blanton's health and the performance of Fox/Carlo. If those 4 key guys stay healthy and Fox/Carlo step up we are going to smash teams. If either of those don't happen, we really won't have the elite defense I think we need to win 10+ games.

 

[BabyIrish]

If those 4 key guys stay healthy and Fox/Carlo step up we are going to smash teams. If either of those don't happen, we really won't have the elite defense I think we need to win 10+ games.

I have a feeling there will be growing pains with Fox/Carlo postion in the early going, but hopefully it won't cost us any games in the first three games of the season against some tough opponents. Lets' hope Fox turns it on the rest of the season and plays to a level similar to Brian Smith.

 

[GoldenDomer87]

You're correct, so let me rephrase.

Brian Smith over the last 4 games (aka when our defense was BEAST) played at an A/A+ level every game. He broke up passes, stuffed runs, defeated blocks, pursued plays... basically executed his responsibility to a T on every play. His impact performance was the single biggest reason (although there were many others) why our defense went from pretty good to great. On many levels, he outplayed Manti.

I agree with you that most schools cannot find a guy who can play at an A/A+ level and have weaknesses. But my point is that, if we're looking for a reason why this team won't play at a world-beater level (which I am), this has to be your biggest concern. I'm not looking for a guy to be flawless, but I would've felt much better with Carlo being named the starter and Kelly saying "Carlo has looked great and really improved in coverage" than Foxy coming out of nowhere to win the job.

Am I freaking out about it? No. But I think it's a good point for discussion. This defense will go the way of Manti/Harrison Smith/Gary Gray/Blanton's health and the performance of Fox/Carlo. If those 4 key guys stay healthy and Fox/Carlo step up we are going to smash teams. If either of those don't happen, we really won't have the elite defense I think we need to win 10+ games.

I guess I am confused then. Why is it bad when someone beats someone else out for a position? I thought that was the essence of football. Something ND hasn't had in years. Player pushing each other to be better. Fox won the position, so obviously he is better than Carlo. I want the best player on the field.

 

[TerryTate]

I guess I am confused then. Why is it bad when someone beats someone else out for a position? I thought that was the essence of football. Something ND hasn't had in years. Player pushing each other to be better. Fox won the position, so obviously he is better than Carlo. I want the best player on the field.

I would say we focus on the above statement.

In the staff's opinion and Diaco's voodoo psychology, they believe that Fox is more suited to what they're trying to show in their defensive front 7. I don't think the staff thinks this is a weakness, I think they just liked how Dan Fox has shown himself in the recent weeks. Guys, we want competition. We want guys fighting for position and PT. This staff has taken away the entitlement and made guys hungry again.

Will we still see Carlo? You're damn right we will. 3rd and short... who do you think will be in the middle to stuff the run?

These guys will rotate. The staff wants fresh bodies all game. This is their system. We need to get used to it.

 

[kmoose]

I think come game time Carlo will be a fantastic "third-and-short" MLB; if it's an obvious run situation he'll he in there pronto. He's like the anti-fullback haha. Fox is just a more complete LB and thus he will see the field more.

I think we'll still see some of this: #44 Cal - ND ILB Carlo Calabrese Rips Head Off Stanford FB 2010 - YouTube

Or this:

<iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Af8uRU_79kc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Whiskeyjack]

In the staff's opinion and Diaco's voodoo psychology, they believe that Fox is more suited to what they're trying to show in their defensive front 7.

Which shouldn't surprise anyone. As has been mentioned many times already, Brian Smith's performance at the Will was a big reason for our defensive renaissance last season. He didn't succeed primarily as a run-stuffing meat head, but with great vision and lateral speed-- breaking up passes, flowing to the ball, etc.

Fox has always been a better fit at Will than Carlo. Now that he's ready to get physical against the run, we're closer to having a complete Will than we are with Carlo.

 

[IrishLax]

I guess I am confused then. Why is it bad when someone beats someone else out for a position? I thought that was the essence of football. Something ND hasn't had in years. Player pushing each other to be better. Fox won the position, so obviously he is better than Carlo. I want the best player on the field.

To speak to this point, I don't like this for the same reason I didn't want Rees to start over Crist.

You could replace names in the part I bolded to read "Rees won the position, so obviously he is better than Crist." But we all know that Tommy has a ceiling. He is never going to be able to throw 50+ yard bombs... or even get certain deep outs there on time. And he can't run. In the hypothetical scenario where he beats Crist because he is better would not make me happy. Instead, it would tell me that Tommy was performing somewhere around a B level and Crist was below that at a B- or worse. That is not good and would show a weakness in QB play.

The same logic applies to this battle. We know that Carlo can plug holes, defeat blocks and stuff the run. And here's what else we know:
-Fox and Carlo have been declared "even" many times.
-Fox is good in coverage (from what I've heard).
-If they are "even" and we know Carlo is really good at some aspects and struggles at others, it stands to reason that Fox is good at the aspects Carlo is bad at... but poor at the ones Carlo is good at. If this was not the case, and Fox was good at everything, then they would not be "1 and 1" as Diaco put it. Fox would be a clear 1, and Carlo a 2.
-Therefor, if each player has a flaw stopping them from being a clear starter, they aren't going to being playing at a game-changing level.

**Yeah, this is all conjecture. Of course it is. I'm not a coach with eyes on every practice. But my point is that reading the tea leaves there is very little chance we get someone playing at Brain Smith's level. And that should concern people. Because Brian Smith balling out was a HUGE part of why our defense was awesome. And if we can't get that level of play, I'm not quite sure our defense is going to be top 10 like I'm hoping/expecting it to be. What I was hoping for is "Carlo has drastically improved his agility and situational awareness and has been doing phenomenally in coverage." That, sadly, didn't happen.

 

[Veer option]

Can't believe the refs gave them a 1st down there. Total BS.

Complete travesty. From then on Stanford had the momentum and it was all over for ND.

 

[BabyIrish]

Lax, it seems you are basing your opinion on the fact that Fox has a ceiling that will hinder his run stopping ability. According to BK, he has been improving in this area and could still continue to improve in this area and play at a Brian Smith level by mid way through the season. Hopefully this is the case and the scenario plays out the way we want.