COVID-19

[NDPhilly]

Europe is in the midst of a huge Covid resurgence, regardless of vaccination rate. The following countries are at all-time high case-counts:


Iceland - 76% Fully Vaccinated
Denmark - 76% Fully Vaccinated
Belgium - 74% Fully Vaccinated
Finland - 71% Fully Vaccinated
Netherlands - 69% Fully Vaccinated
Germany - 67% Fully Vaccinated
Austria - 66% Fully Vaccinated

I ask again - what proof do we have that mandates will do anything to slow the spread (not hospitalizations/deaths)?

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

The effectiveness claim came from you, and people that didn't actually read reports produced. Somehow, it's everyone else's fault you are holding onto this notion that it was supposed to be 100%.

It's like arguing a box score on ESPN because you didn't take the time to look at the score.

No, the effectiveness claim did not come from me. It was implied over and over 24/7 like all effective propaganda. Average Americans do not read reports and clinical trials. Given their lack of expertise and time scarcity, they entrust their health to the professionals. IMO the health establishment has failed in their societal duty to be candid about the virus and the truth about the “vaccine”. The “they/you should have read the contract/clinical trials” defense that you are offering would shock a good number of Americans who took faith to what was presented to them by the health establishment.

 

[bobbyok1]

No, the effectiveness claim did not come from me. It was implied over and over 24/7 like all effective propaganda. Average Americans do not read reports and clinical trials. Given their lack of expertise and time scarcity, they entrust their health to the professionals. IMO the health establishment has failed in their societal duty to be candid about the virus and the truth about the “vaccine”. The “they/you should have read the contract/clinical trials” defense that you are offering would shock a good number of Americans who took faith to what was presented to them by the health establishment.

I think we can all agree there was a misinformation campaign in the form of propaganda in the phrasing "A pandemic of the unvaccinated" and "99.9% of those in ICU are unvaccinated."

In a similar manner, I think this is what N_D_Fighting_Irish is getting at with regards to the propaganda related to what promises people were given as to the vaccine(s) efficacy. We all know it wasn't and isn't 99.9% of unvaccinated people with COVID in ICU's, and yet that was the company line regurgitated by media outlets, politicians and even medical communities. Likewise, there were plenty of big promises about the efficacy we should expect with the vaccine(s) and ever since the talking heads have been shifting the goal posts.

 

[TorontoGold]

No, the effectiveness claim did not come from me. It was implied over and over 24/7 like all effective propaganda. Average Americans do not read reports and clinical trials. Given their lack of expertise and time scarcity, they entrust their health to the professionals. IMO the health establishment has failed in their societal duty to be candid about the virus and the truth about the “vaccine”. The “they/you should have read the contract/clinical trials” defense that you are offering would shock a good number of Americans who took faith to what was presented to them by the health establishment.

"I recall the powers that be claimed the vaccine was a one time shot and it was 100% effective against death and hospitalization AND prevented transmission." - You typed this, correct? Surely you can support this claim, or it's just admitting that you misunderstood/didn't read how vaccines work.

People die from appendectomies yearly, of course it's rare, but it's a straight forward procedure that you understand there is a miniscule risk to it. There isn't an "anti-surgery" movement.

If everyone was vaccinated, do you think we would be worse off?

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

"I recall the powers that be claimed the vaccine was a one time shot and it was 100% effective against death and hospitalization AND prevented transmission." - You typed this, correct? Surely you can support this claim, or it's just admitting that you misunderstood/didn't read how vaccines work.

People die from appendectomies yearly, of course it's rare, but it's a straight forward procedure that you understand there is a miniscule risk to it. There isn't an "anti-surgery" movement.

If everyone was vaccinated, do you think we would be worse off?

If you are claiming that, when the vaccine came out, the powers that be disclosed that this "vaccine" will not prevent hospitalization, will not prevent deaths, and will not stop transmission of the virus then you have no credibility in my eye.

Misunderstanding/not knowing how vaccines work are precisely how they sold this experimental drug as a vaccine. Once the data came out, the definition of vaccine was changed to satisfy or clear up the public’s confusion about the drug.

I don’t understand your straw man argument about appendectomies. What are you trying to say?

If everyone was vaccinated? No one is vaccinated. People are taking an experimental drug not a vaccine.

 

[tussin]

Here was the NEJM Pfizer study as it relates to Delta variant: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891

No one (in the scientific community) claimed it to be 100% effective.

 

[TorontoGold]

If you are claiming that, when the vaccine came out, the powers that be disclosed that this "vaccine" will not prevent hospitalization, will not prevent deaths, and will not stop transmission of the virus then you have no credibility in my eye.

Misunderstanding/not knowing how vaccines work are precisely how they sold this experimental drug as a vaccine. Once the data came out, the definition of vaccine was changed to satisfy or clear up the public’s confusion about the drug.

I don’t understand your straw man argument about appendectomies. What are you trying to say?

If everyone was vaccinated? No one is vaccinated. People are taking an experimental drug not a vaccine.

Claiming others don't have credibility yet not showing who said it's 100% effective, is just *chefs kiss*

Not a straw man, pal. An example of a nearly perfect medical procedure that has a miniscule amount of risk yet people go forward with it.

Which are your favorite vaccines? I'm extremely curious on which vaccines you've taken that provide 100% efficacy.

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

Claiming others don't have credibility yet not showing who said it's 100% effective, is just *chefs kiss*

Not a straw man, pal. An example of a nearly perfect medical procedure that has a miniscule amount of risk yet people go forward with it.

Which are your favorite vaccines? I'm extremely curious on which vaccines you've taken that provide 100% efficacy.

Your inability to admit how they initially marketed this “vaccine” relays to me how fragile your beliefs are. You could reasonably argue that disclosing the shortcomings of the “vaccine” would have dissuaded people from taking it. That the health establishment made a calculated decision based on the knowledge they had at the time about the virus and the vaccine not to provide full disclosure in order to save lives. It seems you have not really given much serious thought just parroting talking points….especially considering your peculiar “what is my favorite vaccine” question. Let’s agree to disagree.

 

[Black Irish]

Is any one else getting beyond tired of the Mask & Social Distancing theater? You see photo ops of a small group of prominent people who are definitely vaccinated and yet are all still wearing masks. Or how almost every news cast or sports show has anchors sitting practically across the room from each other. I bet these people are all vaxxed and probably undergo regular testing, and yet still we get the Covid Precaution Show. Get over yourselves.

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

I think we can all agree there was a misinformation campaign in the form of propaganda in the phrasing "A pandemic of the unvaccinated" and "99.9% of those in ICU are unvaccinated."

In a similar manner, I think this is what N_D_Fighting_Irish is getting at with regards to the propaganda related to what promises people were given as to the vaccine(s) efficacy. We all know it wasn't and isn't 99.9% of unvaccinated people with COVID in ICU's, and yet that was the company line regurgitated by media outlets, politicians and even medical communities. Likewise, there were plenty of big promises about the efficacy we should expect with the vaccine(s) and ever since the talking heads have been shifting the goal posts.

You would think every would agree. As Orwell concisely noted “To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle”.

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

Is any one else getting beyond tired of the Mask & Social Distancing theater? You see photo ops of a small group of prominent people who are definitely vaccinated and yet are all still wearing masks. Or how almost every news cast or sports show has anchors sitting practically across the room from each other. I bet these people are all vaxxed and probably undergo regular testing, and yet still we get the Covid Precaution Show. Get over yourselves.

Propaganda works. The fear that it has instilled in people can be best exemplified by noticing individuals driving alone double masked with the windows closed.

 

[TorontoGold]

Your inability to admit how they initially marketed this “vaccine” relays to me how fragile your beliefs are. You could reasonably argue that disclosing the shortcomings of the “vaccine” would have dissuaded people from taking it. That the health establishment made a calculated decision based on the knowledge they had at the time about the virus and the vaccine not to provide full disclosure in order to save lives. It seems you have not really given much serious thought just parroting talking points….especially considering your peculiar “what is my favorite vaccine” question. Let’s agree to disagree.

Which vaccines are 100% effective, by your measure they need to be 100% or they aren't vaccines. Pretty simple answer.

 

[GowerND11]

Everything I saw online, in the news, in print, etc. never ONCE said 100%. So I would love for N_D_Fighting_Irish to provide us with a source rather than, "People"

 

[ab2cmiller]

When the vaccine was being first trumpeted, nobody claimed that the vaccine would be 100%. However, the 95% was thrown out repeatedly and the analysts and media basically said that while the vaccine will NOT be 100% and there will be breakthrough cases, they will be extremely isolated and that the risk of hospitalization and death avoidance would be even higher. Bottom line is nobody knew how long the vaccines would work.but they were probably oversold given that unknown.

 

[yankeehater]

95% or 100% is really just semantics. The vaccines were completely oversold by everyone involved and still are today. How else would you push them on children ages 5-11 when there is definitely no way the benefit to risk justifies this effort? I am seeing elected officials go on TV and claim this is how that age group will finally get their lives back. Really??? I still remember Dr. Fauci saying 30-40% is where we need to get for herd immunity. Now it is 100% vaccination rate. Goal posts left the field a long time ago.

 

[ab2cmiller]

What I don't get is using an Emergency Use Authorization for a vaccine for 5-11 year olds. What exactly is the emergency with this age group as it relates to COVID? The trial for this age group had somewhere between 2,200 and 3,000 participants. If I were a parent of a child in that age group, I would not immunize. I would need some significant time to pass. The sad part is that many schools will require this immunization to attend school probably starting next year.

 

[PerthDomer]

95% or 100% is really just semantics. The vaccines were completely oversold by everyone involved and still are today. How else would you push them on children ages 5-11 when there is definitely no way the benefit to risk justifies this effort? I am seeing elected officials go on TV and claim this is how that age group will finally get their lives back. Really??? I still remember Dr. Fauci saying 30-40% is where we need to get for herd immunity. Now it is 100% vaccination rate. Goal posts left the field a long time ago.

The measles vaccine is 95% effective. When there are measles outbreaks a large portion of the impacted are vaccinated because there are way more vaccinated people than unvaccinated people. Also, covid kills more 5 to 11 year than most diseases we vaccinate against. It kills more kids than sepsis does.

 

[PerthDomer]

What I don't get is using an Emergency Use Authorization for a vaccine for 5-11 year olds. What exactly is the emergency with this age group as it relates to COVID? The trial for this age group had somewhere between 2,200 and 3,000 participants. If I were a parent of a child in that age group, I would not immunize. I would need some significant time to pass. The sad part is that many schools will require this immunization to attend school probably starting next year.

By next year we'll have a ton of data. Hundreds of thousands to millions of kids.

 

[yankeehater]

By next year we'll have a ton of data. Hundreds of thousands to millions of kids.

I agree we are in an ongoing trial. I would have to check again, but I believe Pfizer's trial date for the Sars2 vaccine trial ends in a couple of years. What do we do at the end of the trial when the hundreds of thousands to millions of kids you mention show the safety and efficacy of the drug did not warrant use/approval? Most people do not realize this fact. I recently had a drug I have been using for 10 years be recalled due to the fact it is now a known carcinogen. My Mom had the same with another drug. The method is what it is and cannot be completely perfect, but to include millions of children in this trial I hope will not turn out to be criminal.

 

[PerthDomer]

I agree we are in an ongoing trial. I would have to check again, but I believe Pfizer's trial date for the Sars2 vaccine trial ends in a couple of years. What do we do at the end of the trial when the hundreds of thousands to millions of kids you mention show the safety and efficacy of the drug did not warrant use/approval? Most people do not realize this fact. I recently had a drug I have been using for 10 years be recalled due to the fact it is now a known carcinogen. My Mom had the same with another drug. The method is what it is and cannot be completely perfect, but to include millions of children in this trial I hope will not turn out to be criminal.

Vaccines and drugs are different in when safety events show up. Drugs frequently cause harm in dose over time. Advil can cause renal failure... but mostly when you take a lot of it every day. Vaccines on the other hand cause safety events in the 1st few months of getting the shot (mostly in the days to weeks after). They indroduce a foreign protein, the body reacts to it and it goes away. There's not a continued exposure over time.

So, for vaccines you need months to pick up on rare early impacts. For drugs it can be years after the fact. The fortunate thing if you're hesitant about COVID is we've never had this much data this quickly. You'll know about 1 in 100k events for 5 to 11 year olds by the summer.

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

By next year we'll have a ton of data. Hundreds of thousands to millions of kids.

Data? Do you know how many children <15 years of age died due to COVID in 2020? 134. What data are you trying to collect?

 

[PerthDomer]

Data? Do you know how many children <15 years of age died due to COVID in 2020? 134. What data are you trying to collect?

Safety data as well as rates of hospitalization, ICU admission, and mortality. Mortality went up in 2021 if you were paying attention...

 

[PerthDomer]

This is what we're using the army for. Plugging holes in hospital staffing a year after a vaccine was available because people are too ignorant to get the vaccine. Joe Rogan would be proud.

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your...dical-team-fights-disease-and-disinformation/

 

[Irish#1]

Propaganda works. The fear that it has instilled in people can be best exemplified by noticing individuals driving alone double masked with the windows closed.

Like 1 in every 500 or 1,000? I'm not seeing hardly anyone driving with masks on these days.

 

[BrownerandFry]

People are overreacting, if you ask me.

780,000 people are dead from Covid, if you ask me.

 

[PerthDomer]

780,000 people are dead from Covid, if you ask me.

What's crazy is that Romania's lost 7 times the people we have per capita. Their vaccine rate is of course in the toilet. Without vaccines we could be way up there in terms of mortality.

 

[ab2cmiller]

What's crazy is that Romania's lost 7 times the people we have per capita. Their vaccine rate is of course in the toilet. Without vaccines we could be way up there in terms of mortality.

The vaccines have saved countless lives, especially for those that are at risk. I am on the fringe of the at risk demographic and thus I chose to get vaccinated. My kids are in their early 20's. Very little risk. Some got vaccinated, others did not. I did not push them in either direction. Their choice.

If my kids were 12-16 I would've chosen to not have them vaccinated.

If my kids were 5-11, no way in hell would I vaccinate them.

It is all about the risk profile. This is how it should've been pursued from the beginning. We vaccinate as many people as we possibly can for those that are at risk and explain that the risk of getting and dying from COVID far far outweigh any risks from the vaccine. If others want to get vaccinated, feel free. Instead we talked of mandates, passports, vaccine shaming. All of this likely backfired in trying to achieve the goal of vaccinating as many people as we could that were at risk.

A counter argument is that most of the people who didn't get the vaccine wouldn't have gotten the vaccine regardless of how it was approached. I freely recognize this. But there are certainly some people that would've been more open to it. How many? Who knows.

 

[PerthDomer]

The vaccines have saved countless lives, especially for those that are at risk. I am on the fringe of the at risk demographic and thus I chose to get vaccinated. My kids are in their early 20's. Very little risk. Some got vaccinated, others did not. I did not push them in either direction. Their choice.

If my kids were 12-16 I would've chosen to not have them vaccinated.

If my kids were 5-11, no way in hell would I vaccinate them.

It is all about the risk profile. This is how it should've been pursued from the beginning. We vaccinate as many people as we possibly can for those that are at risk and explain that the risk of getting and dying from COVID far far outweigh any risks from the vaccine. If others want to get vaccinated, feel free. Instead we talked of mandates, passports, vaccine shaming. All of this likely backfired in trying to achieve the goal of vaccinating as many people as we could that were at risk.

A counter argument is that most of the people who didn't get the vaccine wouldn't have gotten the vaccine regardless of how it was approached. I freely recognize this. But there are certainly some people that would've been more open to it. How many? Who knows.

The mortality risk for teenagers is higher than say meningococcus in any given year by orders of magnitude. That's mandated to go to college or join the military because as a society we don't tolerate 20 or 30 young adults dying in any given year.

When I left fellowship we had two teens on ECMO. One made it and one didn't. They weren't high risk.

If I were a parent of a 5 year old I'd vaccinate them, but I would see not doing so as reasonable. I would see not vaccinating a 16 year old as unreasonable based on the data we have available.

I think the issue is people say hey I'm lower risk than a senior citizen, I'm fine. That's true, but this puts a lot of people in the hospital.

 

[ab2cmiller]

The mortality risk for teenagers is higher than say meningococcus in any given year by orders of magnitude. That's mandated to go to college or join join military because as a society we don't tolerate 20 or 30 young adults dying in any given year.

When I left fellowship we had two teens on ECMO. One made it and one didn't. They weren't high risk.

If I were a parent of a 5 year old I'd vaccinate them, but I would see not doing so as reasonable. I would see not vaccinating a 16 year old as unreasonable based on the data we have available.

I think the issue is people say hey I'm lower risk than a senior citizen, I'm fine. That's true, but this puts a lot of people in the hospital.

But what is the mortality risk for teenagers when you take out those that are at risk, those with underlying health conditions?

 

[PerthDomer]

But what is the mortality risk for teenagers when you take out those that are at risk, those with underlying health conditions?

Interestingly having an underlying health condition is a bigger risk multiplier for kids but at the same time way less kids have underlying health conditions w COVID in the hospital than adults. There just aren't that many kids with underlying health conditions. Most studies I've seen have it 60/40 healthy to unhealthy to 40/60 unhealthy to healthy that die. I'd also mention this holds up for other medical conditions. Most flu deaths I've seen have been in kids with underlying health conditions. Doesn't mean the healthy are spared.