Coaching Carousel

[Jiggafini19Deux]

On a more serious note, I am hearing Elko’s name starting to come up a little more often.

Makes sense from his regional history, but if anyone is going to sling money around, TAMU is right up there.

He's getting $7M a year and has a buyout over $20M

 

[SportsingHard]

That's nice. You're essentially arguing John Daly vs peak Tiger Woods. Sweet, Daly had a great drive but Tiger L dances on Daly's corpse in literally every other aspect.

Curt's getting paid to be among the upper echelon. He's closer to Ryan Day then the "does more with less" pack of Ferentz/Campbell/Leipold.

If we're talking about driving, we're talking about driving. If we're talking about "other aspects" we're talking about "other aspects."

What you're essentially saying is, "No, Daly couldn't drive, because Tiger could putt."

 

[DomeFieldAdvantage]

Curt Cignetti:

2007, Bama WR coach, $170,000
2009, Bama WR coach, $200,000
2010, Bama WR coach, $250,000
2011, IUP HC, $125,000
2022, JMU HC, $425,000
2023, JMU HC, $677,000
2024, Indiana HC, $4.5 million
2025, Indiana HC, $11.6 million

 

[Bane]

A head coach is responsible for many things, including talent acquisition, but when it comes to simply getting teams to play at or above their talent level, Nick Saban wasn't worthy of wiping Curt Cignetti's ass. Curt deserves every dollar and then some.

Me personally? I’ll take the guy who does more with more.

I’m tired of talking about Cig, what I don’t understand is this desire to retcon Saban as some average schmuck who only paid players and that is it. It’s extremely lazy. He’s the definitive and best coach of the last 25 years or more of CFB.

And guess what, EVERY big time program was paying players under the table for DECADES. This is like the people who think a salary cap would “fix” baseball. (I go back and forth on a cap myself) It won’t. The Mets dropped more money in one offseason than anyone else ever before and didn’t make the playoffs. The Dodgers spend money, sure but they’re winning in the postseason with an Island of Misfit toys like Kike Hernandez, Edman, and Teoscar. Hell, their all time postseason HR leader was a cast off (Muncy).

Point being, money is only one part of the equation. Saban beat the shit out of teams that had big time money and resources over and over again because he was a uniquely great coach and motivator.

Having great players is part of why Saban was great, he recruited and kept them. Everyone says IU has this pile of money and all that matters is having money so if it’s easy, I’m sure they’ll soon have perennial top 3 classes year over year. After all, 6x NC winner Nick Saban isn’t fit to tie the shoes of Cignetti, Slayer of Oregon.

 

[SportsingHard]

A head coach is responsible for many things, including talent acquisition, but when it comes to simply getting teams to play at or above their talent level, Nick Saban wasn't worthy of wiping Curt Cignetti's ass. Curt deserves every dollar and then some.

Me personally? I’ll take the guy who does more with more.

Me too. Saying, "Tyler Buchner could outrun CJ Carr," is not remotely the same as saying Buchner is or was the better QB.

 

[TorontoGold]

If we're talking about driving, we're talking about driving. If we're talking about "other aspects" we're talking about "other aspects."

What you're essentially saying is, no Daly couldn't drive because Tiger could putt.

We're talking about compensation. You said "Curt deserves every dollar and then some.". Making the 3rd most in CFB is about more than "doing more with less".

He should absolutely be above other "more than less" coaches but are we really going to say "he deserves" more than Dabo/Sark/Lanning?

 

[Bane]

Me too. Saying, "Tyler Buchner could outrun CJ Carr," is not remotely the same as saying Buchner is or was the better QB.

There’s no aspect of coaching CFB in which I would take Cignetti over Saban.

 

[ab2cmiller]

There’s no aspect of coaching CFB in which I would take Cignetti over Saban.

So much for "tired of talking about Cig".

We get it. You despise Cig. Even if others aren't ready to move on. It's definitely time for you to move on.

 

[Bane]

So much for "tired of talking about Cig".

We get it. You despise Cig. Even if others aren't ready to move on. It's definitely time for you to move on.

Sorry didn’t know positing Saban > Cignetti was remotely controversial. It’s not about hate, Saban is a better coach than Marcus Freeman too.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Sorry didn’t know positing Saban > Cignetti was remotely controversial. It’s not about hate, Saban is a better coach than Marcus Freeman too.

I don't really like Cig either, but you make me want to like him.

 

[Bane]

It’s a free country, you can like or dislike whoever you want, even me.

 

[NDRock]

Me personally? I’ll take the guy who does more with more.

I’m tired of talking about Cig, what I don’t understand is this desire to retcon Saban as some average schmuck who only paid players and that is it. It’s extremely lazy. He’s the definitive and best coach of the last 25 years or more of CFB.

And guess what, EVERY big time program was paying players under the table for DECADES. This is like the people who think a salary cap would “fix” baseball. (I go back and forth on a cap myself) It won’t. The Mets dropped more money in one offseason than anyone else ever before and didn’t make the playoffs. The Dodgers spend money, sure but they’re winning in the postseason with an Island of Misfit toys like Kike Hernandez, Edman, and Teoscar. Hell, their all time postseason HR leader was a cast off (Muncy).

Point being, money is only one part of the equation. Saban beat the shit out of teams that had big time money and resources over and over again because he was a uniquely great coach and motivator.

Having great players is part of why Saban was great, he recruited and kept them. Everyone says IU has this pile of money and all that matters is having money so if it’s easy, I’m sure they’ll soon have perennial top 3 classes year over year. After all, 6x NC winner Nick Saban isn’t fit to tie the shoes of Cignetti, Slayer of Oregon.

Yep. Even more impressive to me was how he was able to completely turn over a coaching staff and still win big. That's hard to do and often when things go south for very successful coaches. Saban won 3 titles in his first 8 years, impressive but not unheard of. Winning another 3 in the next 9 was what separated his success from Pete Carroll, Urban, Dabo, and others.

 

[Bane]

Yep. Even more impressive to me was how he was able to completely turn over a coaching staff and still win big. That's hard to do and often when things go south for very successful coaches. Saban won 3 titles in his first nine years, impressive but not unheard of. Winning another 3 in the next 9 was what separated his success from Pete Carroll, Urban, Dabo, and others.

Yeah and he was able to adapt to the changing landscape by remaking his team. He went from defense first, RTDB in the first half of his tenure to multiple first round QBs and becoming WRU (before OSU took that title). His coaching tree has produced multiple big time coaches if you include his little coaching rehab thing he had going on.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

It’s a free country, you can like or dislike whoever you want, even me.

 

[SportsingHard]

We're talking about compensation. You said "Curt deserves every dollar and then some.". Making the 3rd most in CFB is about more than "doing more with less".

He should absolutely be above other "more than less" coaches but are we really going to say "he deserves" more than Dabo/Sark/Lanning?

Fair enough. I think Curt deserves to be well-compensated. As to the others you inquired about:
* Dabo has adapted to modern changes possibly worse than anybody and definitely does not warrant elite compenation--or a job
* Sark definitely does not have an overall resume that compares well with Cig, but he's done a mostly good job of getting Texas to play up to their potential recently and does warrant elite compensation
* Lanning has done a nice job at possibly the cushiest job in the NIL era and does warrant elite compensation

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Sorry didn’t know positing Saban > Cignetti was remotely controversial. It’s not about hate, Saban is a better coach than Marcus Freeman too.

Yes. In 1990 as head coach of Toledo, he defeated Northern Illinois.

 

[Bane]

I actually find Sark a touch overrated, especially as a player caller. I think his offenses feast on weak teams and get ground up by even good defenses. Losing that SECCG was borderline inexcusable considering UGA was moving the ball like it was WWI trench warfare: an inch at a time.

He is a good coach and a really good recruiter, but I’m not bullish on him as an elite guy.

 

[Bane]

Yes. In 1990 as head coach of Toledo, he defeated Northern Illinois.

The crown jewel of his coaching career I’m sure.

 

[SportsingHard]

There’s no aspect of coaching CFB in which I would take Cignetti over Saban.

Can't argue with that. Saban nearly got fired at MSU with rosters far more talented than Indiana's and had a losing record when dealing with NFL roster parity, but what you'd take is what you'd take.

 

[Bane]

Can't argue with that. Saban nearly got fired at MSU with rosters far more talented than Indiana's and had a losing record when dealing with NFL roster parity, but what you'd take is what you'd take.

NFL doesn’t matter that’s why I said “coaching CFB.”

And yeah, you’re right, a 4 year coaching stint at MSU 30 years ago just negates all of this:

 

[TorontoGold]

Fair enough. I think Curt deserves to be well-compensated. As to the others you inquired about:
* Dabo has adapted to modern changes possibly worse than anybody and definitely does not warrant elite compenation--or a job
* Sark definitely does not have an overall resume that compares well with Cig, but he's done a mostly good job of getting Texas to play up to their potential recently and does warrant elite compensation
* Lanning has done a nice job at possibly the cushiest job in the NIL era and does warrant elite compensation

I think you're missing the point, I didn't inquire. I gave you examples of those that have more proof of competing at the top and are compensated for success. Curt deserves to be paid more than the Campbell's of the world, but more than playoff game winners or someone who's won a title? Come on now.

 

[NDRock]

I actually find Sark a touch overrated, especially as a player caller. I think his offenses feast on weak teams and get ground up by even good defenses. Losing that SECCG was borderline inexcusable considering UGA was moving the ball like it was WWI trench warfare: an inch at a time.

He is a good coach and a really good recruiter, but I’m not bullish on him as an elite guy.

You like him more than me. I find him more than a touch overrated. Maybe a slap? Perhaps a backhand overrated? Either way, him and Lane are both overrated to me. Probably stems from my Pete Carroll PTSD days.

 

[irishff1014]

DeBoer lmao

DeLusional

Say what you want but this isn’t a bad name.

He loses another game in Bama and the fans are going to turn on him. I would much rather leave on my terms. He might even keep the DC. Saves Penn state money. His offense have shown me more than Rhule has anything.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Say what you want but this isn’t a bad name.

He loses another game in Bama and the fans are going to turn on him. I would much rather leave on my terms. He might even keep the DC. Saves Penn state money. His offense have shown me more than Rhule has anything.

He could bring Grubb with him too.

I think they win out but they probably get bumped off in the playoff. Or if he wins it all, he can still leave. Mic drop move and then some.

 

[Bane]

You like him more than me. I find him more than a touch overrated. Maybe a slap? Perhaps a backhand overrated? Either way, him and Lane are both overrated to me. Probably stems from my Pete Carroll PTSD days.

I think Lane is a much better play caller than Sark and I think he’s actually grown as a coach in terms of big game preparation. His offenses seem smoother than Sarks against good defenses.

I also think Lane is a better QB developer than Sark. I agree with Vikings HC KOC who said “most of the time organizations fail QBs not the other way around,” and I think Sark has let down Ewers and so far Manning.

I wouldn’t say Lane is an elite coach though, he has to actually win a conference title or some play off games before I would consider that.

 

[SportsingHard]

NFL doesn’t matter that’s why I said “coaching CFB.”

And yeah, you’re right, a 4 year coaching stint at MSU 30 years ago just negates all of this:

View attachment 3060621

Nope. Total strawman. You're still on, "You're right, Buchner's running ability totally negates Carr's success as a leader, diagnoser, communicator, and passer." Not even close to something I ever said.

As to the Miami Dolphins, I'm aware they're not a CFB team. We simply have two main sources of data when it comes to Saban coaching teams without an almost unfair talent advantage over the competition: MSU and Miami. Saban simply has never taken an IU type roster to greatness.

You can award 100 points to Saban and one to Cignetti, or you can deny Cignetti a point. Up to you.

 

[Bane]

He could bring Grubb with him too.

I think they win out but they probably get bumped off in the playoff. Or if he wins it all, he can still leave. Mic drop move and then some.

Eh. Even with all of the pressures of Bama, it’s still a better job than PSU by a country mile. I mean, maybe DeBoer doesn’t want the smoke of Bama but PSU just shitcanned the guy who took them to a few plays from the NCG just 10 months ago 6 games into the season. Not exactly a low pressure environment.

 

[SportsingHard]

I think you're missing the point, I didn't inquire. I gave you examples of those that have more proof of competing at the top and are compensated for success. Curt deserves to be paid more than the Campbell's of the world, but more than playoff game winners or someone who's won a title? Come on now.

I never said a word about who should be paid the most. I don't know who makes what, but the fact of the matter is salaries go up anually, and it makes sense that Cig got a boatload. However, I take "someone who's won a title" to mean Dabo. Any AD who would give Dabo a mega-contract at this point should be executed immediately, or at least confined to an asylum.

If Sark or Lanning deserve more than Cig, it's mainly because perception matters a lot, and there are many people like you who see guys doing competent jobs at elite programs and value them higher than someone doing a legendary job at literally the worst power conference program of all time.

I-A Winning Percentage 1869-2023

As to, "are we really going to say "he deserves" more than Dabo/Sark/Lanning?" I apologize for reading that as an inquiry.

 

[SeekNDestroy]

These things are different. Everyone put away their Notre Dame biases for a second and look at it from the middle.

Indiana went on the road to Oregon who hadn't lost a regular season game in two years and were coming off of a bye week and beat them. It's likely the biggest win for that program since they beat a ranked Ohio State team in Columbus in 1987. Oregon hadn't lost a step up to that point. They pummeled who they needed to pummel and went to Penn State and won. Nobody pegged Indiana to win and they did.

The contract situation isn't as similar as we want to believe, either. We're also talking about a guy who had previous head coaching experience prior to Indiana. Charlie Weis got a contract extension off of being 4-2. Cignetti right now is 136-37 and 17-2 at the current employer who just gave him a raise. Charlie Weis had Super Bowl rings and an overtime loss at home to John L. Smith on his resume.

I think way too many people here are looking at Indiana Football right now from the perspective of a Notre Dame fan. They were losing most of these games not all that long ago. Now they're not, and they're seeing revenue and business is booming. Ride the wave as long as you can. You never know when it is going to end. If and when it does, it's going to be expensive most likely.

Pegged

 

[Bane]

Nope. Total strawman. You're still on, "You're right, Buchner's running ability totally negates Carr's success as a leader, diagnoser, communicator, and passer." Not even close to something I ever said.

As to the Miami Dolphins, I'm aware they're not a CFB team. We simply have two main sources of data when it comes to Saban coaching teams without an almost unfair talent advantage over the competition: MSU and Miami. Saban simply has never taken an IU type roster to greatness.

You can award 100 points to Saban and one to Cignetti, or you can deny Cignetti a point. Up to you.

I don’t think those LSU teams he coached were overly loaded necessarily and he still won two SEC titles and a NC.

NFL is totally irrelevant, most coaches can’t make the jump. Guys like Harbaugh and PC are anomalies. Hell, Urban has a legitimate stake as the second best coach of this generation and he didn’t even make it a full season in the NFL. Apples to oranges.

If Cig took an NFL job and didn’t pan out I wouldn’t think any differently about his CFB coaching ability.