Clemson Postgame...

[IrishinSyria]

The fact that an XP wasn't a gimmee actually kind of militates against going for 2 though, because the logic was if you get 2 you're only a TD and a FG away.... if the XP wasn't a gimmee, then a FG was even less likely.

I still think it was a good call. It didn't work out, but then again... what did?

 

[Cogs]

Going into this game I thought the rain would help ND since we could just use the run game.. boy was I wrong. Clemson lucked out tonight fellas...scooping up their own fumbles, missed PI calls all night. Man this one is a tough loss. Super impressed with Kizer. Notre Dame has a real tough QB situation on their hands if Kizer runs the table from here on out.

 

[NDinTEXAS]

Just my 2 cents:
1) Cj was scared to make hard cuts and was tip toeing up to the line very tentatively. Maybe in pregame he made a cut and said uh oh i better be careful and theres goes our running game.
2)Either you can catch a smoking wet ball or you cant. I have never seen a game with that much rain have people not drop passes slip runs...... We have to get over it because I truly believe 9/10 times we would have won that game.
3) turnovers again wet balls wet field wet hands its just one of those things you have to experiance before you can get better at it and I think going forward if this happens again we will be the better men for it.
4) Damn our young quarterback did well. Kizer had some passes sail hi because of the wet balls but over all I am with kelly he put us in a position to win the game and We should all rally behind him.
5) Defense has to run laps for starting out so slow.
6) I'm $h!T faced so hope this makes sense.

 

[ARALOU]

Irish plays Clemson ten times, they win 9. Maybe a few by a wide margins. It was literally the perfect storm for Clemson. Give them credit, they had a good game plan for the Irish. It worked for three quarters. Tough loss, but not indicative of a bad team. I thought going in that the Irish would win. Honestly, I never lost hope till the end of the game. Clemson was due and they are a decent team. They are not as good as the Irish and that was obvious in the end. Even on the 2 point conversion, Kizer run, if the conditions are normal, he barrels in on the backs of his blockers. It was just a tough loss. We spotted them too much, in a monsoon.

 

[ickythump1225]

Says who??? They had ZERO problem running it down our gullet. We couldn't stop D#ck until zero hour and they're just burning clock. Child, please.

Really? Other than the first 4-5 minutes of each half we pretty much stopped them all night long. After starting 3/3 on 3rd down they ended up something like 5/14. They went into a shell during most of the 4th quarter but they weren't in one for the rest of the game. The defense only gave up 24 points even with 4 turnovers from the offense.

 

[ickythump1225]

Yes but I am taking about road teams coming to play. Therefore Ole Miss didn't have that problem.

Ole Miss certainly had a problem getting up for Florida last night. They got the s**t kicked out of them all night long.

 

[ickythump1225]

-I hate losing to Clemson because that is not a good team and I don't respect them, their fans, or their program. Dabo will Dabo away their season by mid-November and this loss will look bad.

-The opening 5 minutes of each half killed us. Clemson, outside of their first two drives, couldn't move the ball on us effectively. If you drew up the worst possible sequence to open a game for us I'm pretty sure: easy TD opening drive, shanked punt, TD on short field would probably it.

-Kizer is poised and confident.

-C.J. looked hesitant on his runs but had a good day pass catching.

-Torii Hunter Jr. needs to see be on the field more as he his dynamic. Him and CB had good games.

-I didn't like the call to go for 2 so early in the game, nor did I like the playcall on the final 2 point try...however, if we didn't have so many self inflicted wounds neither would have been necessary.

-BK is awesome at making adjustments...when he gets around to it. This is what frustrates me about BK at times. How many times have we screamed for him to run the ball because we're gashing at team but he decides to pass? Well today was the opposite. It was pretty clear fairly early on that the passing game was on point tonight yet we took forever to adjust our game plan.

-I was underwhelmed by the run blocking of our "vaunted" offensive line, but they did excellent in pass blocking.

 

[Irish2155]

Fuck the chart, who cares? Problem isn't some damn chart...its the play call(s).

 

[Grahambo]

On to the next! Rally sons of Notre Dame!

*Insert criticism, second guessing, and arm chair QB'ing here*

I have my opinion and it differs from yours, the end.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Just my $.02 (which is worth less than $.02), but you are obsessed with nitpicking things people say in game threads/chats and holding it over their heads. It's silly. It's a game thread, FFS. People vent. People are obviously going to be more rational discussing their team on a Wednesday afternoon than they are in the middle of the game. It's like that with every single fan base for every single team in sports. It's not a Notre Dame/Irish Envy only tradition.

You may find the over the top negativity annoying in game threads/chats, but there are plenty of others who find the over the top positivity/homerism just as annoying. I make more appearances in the live chats than threads, but you seem to always be there calling people out in chats. If you hate the negativity so much (or find it absurd, whatever), then why do you even bother to check in?

Notre Dame looked like ass for 3 quarters. Not many on here are going to dispute that. Many of us were calling them out early in the game; was it not justified? Not everybody approaches a game the game way; while fan A may sit there quietly and say "it's okay, we have time, let's be positive", fan B may cuss/vent and say " fucking Christ we are terrible". Who cares? FFS, it's a game thread.

I like being in the chat sometimes because it often feels like I'm watching with a bunch of buddies. I don't mind calling out poor play. I agreed with you several times when you were referring to poor play. I do mind when people start making personal attacks on players and coaches. "Kelly is an idiot" or "the defense has given up." Personal shots are silly. We weren't playing well. I didn't dispute that at the time. I thought we were going to come back because I didn't think we'd continue to shoot ourselves in the foot. People asked me why I thought that and I told them. We nearly pulled it off.

 

[ThePiombino]

I like being in the chat sometimes because it often feels like I'm watching with a bunch of buddies. I don't mind calling out poor play. I agreed with you several times when you were referring to poor play. I do mind when people start making personal attacks on players and coaches. "Kelly is an idiot" or "the defense has given up." Personal shots are silly. We weren't playing well. I didn't dispute that at the time. I thought we were going to come back because I didn't think we'd continue to shoot ourselves in the foot. People asked me why I thought that and I told them. We nearly pulled it off.

Nice perspective

 

[kmoose]

I like being in the chat sometimes because it often feels like I'm watching with a bunch of buddies. I don't mind calling out poor play. I agreed with you several times when you were referring to poor play. I do mind when people start making personal attacks on players and coaches. "Kelly is an idiot" or "the defense has given up." Personal shots are silly. We weren't playing well. I didn't dispute that at the time. I thought we were going to come back because I didn't think we'd continue to shoot ourselves in the foot. People asked me why I thought that and I told them. We nearly pulled it off.

You would think that some of them would have learned not to panic, when they packed in their tents on the entire season after Zaire went out of the Virginia game. But.......

 

[irish4ever]

-I hate losing to Clemson because that is not a good team and I don't respect them, their fans, or their program. Dabo will Dabo away their season by mid-November and this loss will look bad.

-The opening 5 minutes of each half killed us. Clemson, outside of their first two drives, couldn't move the ball on us effectively. If you drew up the worst possible sequence to open a game for us I'm pretty sure: easy TD opening drive, shanked punt, TD on short field would probably it.

-Kizer is poised and confident.

-C.J. looked hesitant on his runs but had a good day pass catching.

-Torii Hunter Jr. needs to see be on the field more as he his dynamic. Him and CB had good games.

-I didn't like the call to go for 2 so early in the game, nor did I like the playcall on the final 2 point try...however, if we didn't have so many self inflicted wounds neither would have been necessary.

-BK is awesome at making adjustments...when he gets around to it. This is what frustrates me about BK at times. How many times have we screamed for him to run the ball because we're gashing at team but he decides to pass? Well today was the opposite. It was pretty clear fairly early on that the passing game was on point tonight yet we took forever to adjust our game plan.

-I was underwhelmed by the run blocking of our "vaunted" offensive line, but they did excellent in pass blocking.

Except for the critical fumble under 2 mins. at the 3 yd line. Other than that, he played very well.

 

[Guest]

WTF does that mean? You think it's a coaching issue that we tried to run the ball to start the game, behind one of the best offensive lines in CFB, with a back who is averaging 150 yards per game?

Define 'start'. If you mean a few plays or a series where the defensive strategy becomes apparent, then ok I am fine with that. The announcers for the game were calling the defensive strategy after the first few plays and I think many fans saw it early also.

You have to be flexible and not stubborn to a specific strategy. It is a chess match between closely talented teams. If the opponent uses a strategy specifically to counter your tendencies, which Clemson did, then you have to adjust.

The offensive coaches should have started running middle routes a quarter and a half before they did to combat the linebackers run blitzing the gaps on almost every 1st and 2nd down play.

 

[kmoose]

You have to be flexible and not stubborn to a specific strategy. It is a chess match between closely talented teams. If the opponent uses a strategy specifically to counter your tendencies, which Clemson did, then you have to adjust.

The offensive coaches should have started running middle routes a quarter and a half before they did to combat the linebackers run blitzing the gaps on almost every 1st and 2nd down play.

You also have to stick with what your strengths are. They are strengths for a reason. I'm not saying that they couldn't have changed things up earlier. Hell, they could have brought Wimbush in in the first half, to "adjust". But in the end, Kizer actually figured a few things out and played pretty well. Holtz never "adjusted"; he simply said, "We don't care if you know what we are going to run. We will still beat you on every play, and be successful."

I'm not saying that the coaches could not have done a better job. They obviously could have. But the coaches did not lose this game; the TEAM lost this game. The coaches are a part of the team and share some blame, but so are the players and some of them definitely deserve a full share of the blame pie.

 

[rtrn2glory]

Plain and simple the team that played the cleaner game won. I don't think the better team won but they played cleaner so they beat us plain and simple.

After sleeping on it I am still flaborgasted by the 2 point call. 1st time I don't mind going for two. I would want to know how to play the rest of the game from that point out. But a QB sweep to go for two with a QB that was cramping?(at least I could have sworn I heard a report kizer was cramping) we were killing them throwing the ball. All staffs hav a list of 2 point plays ready for every game. First was a good one. The second an embarrassment to those he represents and to those who pay his salary. For someone who is heralded for being such a great play caller I must say that was a huge bonehead call and he has a lot of work to do to make up for that one.

 

[Guest]

Down 12 in the 4th quarter? The percentages say to go for it.

Two Point Conversion Chart

Conversion confusion: When going for two, wait 'til the fourth - NFL.com

From the article:

The real problem is that Vermeil's chart only accounts for one of the three factors that go into making the right decision. One missing part is how much time is left in the game, which to me is one of the most important factors. When the Raiders attempted their two-point play, with over 31 minutes left in the game, they were going to get at least six more possessions. So why the sense of urgency to tie the game when there is an entire half to be played?

The third element that needs to be factored into the decision is the probability of being successful on the two-point play. The odds of converting two-point plays are not high -- 137 of 300 since 2006, or a 45.7 percent success rate -- so why pass up an additional point when there is a significant amount of time left in the game? Also, teams normally go into a game with one two-point play -- when they use that specific play early, they are left to improvise if they need another one later.

Therefore, a chart should have the degree of probability of making a two-point play and the amount of time left in the game. When those two are factored together, only then can a correct decision be made.

That is exactly how I felt when they went for early. I think you always save the 2 point conversion, when you are down, for later in the game because you don't know what else will happen in between.

 

[kmoose]

From the article:

The real problem is that Vermeil's chart only accounts for one of the three factors that go into making the right decision. One missing part is how much time is left in the game, which to me is one of the most important factors. When the Raiders attempted their two-point play, with over 31 minutes left in the game, they were going to get at least six more possessions. So why the sense of urgency to tie the game when there is an entire half to be played?

The third element that needs to be factored into the decision is the probability of being successful on the two-point play. The odds of converting two-point plays are not high -- 137 of 300 since 2006, or a 45.7 percent success rate -- so why pass up an additional point when there is a significant amount of time left in the game? Also, teams normally go into a game with one two-point play -- when they use that specific play early, they are left to improvise if they need another one later.

Therefore, a chart should have the degree of probability of making a two-point play and the amount of time left in the game. When those two are factored together, only then can a correct decision be made.

That is exactly how I felt when they went for early. I think you always save the 2 point conversion, when you are down, for later in the game because you don't know what else will happen in between.

It was the 4thQ. How many more possessions do you think you will get?

 

[Armyirish47]

1. Tough loss but we will still be in the conversation if we win out. 10 wins looks reasonable.
2. Our defense is pretty good. Clemson's Heisman candidate QB didn't win any awards last night, which is a nice change of pace from last year.
3. The defense will flip the switch to great once turnovers start happening (looking at you USC).
4. I was frustrated with the slow adjustments on offense but I understand the idea of being A. dedicated to the run with a historically producing running back and B. starting an extremely inexperienced QB in one of the toughest venues he will ever face.
5. Love the fight the team has and excited for the rest of the season, absolutely no quit last night.
6. Even more excited for the future, what a deep team that's been built.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

From the article:

The real problem is that Vermeil's chart only accounts for one of the three factors that go into making the right decision. One missing part is how much time is left in the game, which to me is one of the most important factors. When the Raiders attempted their two-point play, with over 31 minutes left in the game, they were going to get at least six more possessions. So why the sense of urgency to tie the game when there is an entire half to be played?

The third element that needs to be factored into the decision is the probability of being successful on the two-point play. The odds of converting two-point plays are not high -- 137 of 300 since 2006, or a 45.7 percent success rate -- so why pass up an additional point when there is a significant amount of time left in the game? Also, teams normally go into a game with one two-point play -- when they use that specific play early, they are left to improvise if they need another one later.

Therefore, a chart should have the degree of probability of making a two-point play and the amount of time left in the game. When those two are factored together, only then can a correct decision be made.

That is exactly how I felt when they went for early. I think you always save the 2 point conversion, when you are down, for later in the game because you don't know what else will happen in between.

I think there's a discussion to be had. But I don't think it's a terrible decision to go for it in the 4th quarter. It was a calculation and we lost.

 

[Grahambo]

I think there's a discussion to be had. But I don't think it's a terrible decision to go for it in the 4th quarter. It was a calculation and we lost.

Yep. Would I have gone for it? No. But he went for it, they didn't make it. On to Navy.

 

[Guest]

The chart may not be perfect, but I am going to take Dick Vermeil's word over anyone on irishenvy.com. If Coach Vermeil says you go for it, then you go for it.

But that is the point, it is for the last quarter when there aren't many other opportunities and choices in between.

And the chart was made in the 70's and many smart football people believe it is a flawed approach. This has already been discussed and an article even linked in this thread.

The call is openly questionable and has been for years.

Also, you tend to be, at times, very condescending to fans often treating them as if they are stupid. To be honest with you, I would take the average Irish fan, most of whom I consider very intelligent, over Dick Vermeil any day!

 

[Guest]

It was the 4thQ. How many more possessions do you think you will get?

True but it was early and we knew we would have to score again. When you miss it early, it puts the pressure on your offense to forgo a FG for a TD at the end of the game.

 

[wizards8507]

True but it was early and we knew we would have to score again. When you miss it early, it puts the pressure on your offense to forgo a FG for a TD at the end of the game.

It's better to find out early if you're going to need a touchdown or a field goal. Same reason you start on defense in overtime.

 

[IrishinSyria]

My only beef with the play calling was punting it on 4th and 2 in Clemson territory at the end of the half.

 

[IrishFanJMercy]

If we woulda took care of the ball last night the game should have been 30-10 us. I'm not disappointed at all how we played in such a hostile environment the worst place to play in college football. But I was disappointed in upperclassmen not making plays when needed. brown, fuller, robinson, prosise. Hell half the fan base have up when Zaire and Folston went down. Last
Nights game shows how deep we are as a team
And how deep we will be next year. Not to look into next year because I'm not giving up yet on this year, but what happens when we have a 3 team QB race? We will be deep at running back, the freshman kid
Now dexter will most likely take a red shirt next year. WR we lose Carile who has played well but isn't a huge loss I think hunter jr is better now. Brown we lose but he will be replaced with other talent. TE we return everyone. OL we will return 3 starters and have tons of depth. Defense. DL we lose day and romeo, jones & cage/tillery will start inside, trumbetti and rochell on the outside. We need more pass rushers tho. LB will Jaylon go? Schmit will be replaced be Morgan finally who should be playing now. coney replace smith? corners we will return everyone except maybe not Russel but have enough young talent to be fine. safety we lose Schumate and farley but will have crawford and enough young guys someone will step up. We have a ton of young good safeties committed could a freshman start next year? I think we are fine.

 

[kmoose]

But that is the point, it is for the last quarter when there aren't many other opportunities and choices in between.

Um.............. it was the 4Q when ND went for 2.

And the chart was made in the 70's and many smart football people believe it is a flawed approach. This has already been discussed and an article even linked in this thread.

Below is a version of the two point conversion chart first developed by Dick Vermeil in the early 1970s when he was offensive coordinator under Tommy Prothro at UCLA. The chart is still used by coaches in helping them to determine whether to go for a two point or one point conversion after a touchdown in various situations.

If it is still in use, 40 years later, there can't be THAT many "smart football people" who believe it is flawed.

The call is openly questionable and has been for years.

I can find people who would question whether the sky is blue, water is wet, or women are crazy; that doesn't make any of those false, either.

Also, you tend to be, at times, very condescending to fans often treating them as if they are stupid. To be honest with you, I would take the average Irish fan, most of whom I consider very intelligent, over Dick Vermeil any day!

This thread isn't about my personality, or my way of expressing my opinions. If your feelers are hurt, that's a you problem. I won't allow you to make it a me problem. If you would take the average ND fan's emotional opinion over the opinion of a 4 time NFL Coach of the Year, then there's no point in discussing it further. But I am an ND fan, so PM me for some great investment advice. Your broker is an idiot who knows nothing. Trust me.

 

[Bugzly21]

Hey stuff happens. We can argue the early 2 pt call till we run out of breath but the play call was there, the execution wasn't. Pass was a tad high but it went right through CRob's hands. Should have been caught. The last 2 pt conversion did have a pass option to it. Kizer thought he had the numbers.

Things are not as bad as they seem as far as playoffs right now. With Ole Miss, UGA, and UCLA losing very bad ND is not going to drop far in the rankings. Also ND winning out would mean they likely beat the PAC12 champ. So then another Power 5 would have to fall off. The Big12's round robin like last year could potentially knock them out again. That leaves the other 3 Champs and another slot which ND could slide into

 

[wizards8507]

Um.............. it was the 4Q when ND went for 2.





If it is still in use, 40 years later, there can't be THAT many "smart football people" who believe it is flawed.



I can find people who would question whether the sky is blue, water is wet, or women are crazy; that doesn't make any of those false, either.



This thread isn't about my personality, or my way of expressing my opinions. If your feelers are hurt, that's a you problem. I won't allow you to make it a me problem. If you would take the average ND fan's emotional opinion over the opinion of a 4 time NFL Coach of the Year, then there's no point in discussing it further. But I am an ND fan, so PM me for some great investment advice. Your broker is an idiot who knows nothing. Trust me.

Just to add, the chart should be skewed even more in favor of two point conversions when you have an unproven kicker in horrendous conditions. It's not like the PAT is Gostkowski levels of automatic.

 

[Section20Row27]

I like our kids resolve. I like our competitiveness. I love this Team!

They represent ND well.

Sure we had mistakes. Sure we had some questionable play calling.

But, we fought hard and put ourselves into a position to win the game.

We are a better Team than Clemson - now we just have to win out and prove it.

GO IRISH!!