BCS, ESPN and ND

MeanGreen

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Thought I would change (hopefully) the topics on the board from the O-line, practices, and Urban Meyer to something different.

Once again people are complaining about the BCS. Texas got screwed. Why wasn’t USC or PSU considered? There maybe some valid point to all of those. I believe no solution to a playoff exist today that would keep this from happening. The Bowl system worked up until we allowed big time corporate sponsors, conference to super-size, and games against FCS teams to count. What we need to do is go “old school”. Remember when ND did not have to dumb down their schedules? Remember when we played PSU, Alabama, Miami, FSU, all the big boys were on the schedule in some way shape of form. Remember when ABC game of the week really was some great inter-sectional game, even if ND wasn’t involved. When the conference super sized, that took away those opportunities. When people wanted to play Troy, UL-L, App St, or other FCS teams that took away more of those opportunities. So we have teams playing for the NC that played Chattanooga and the Citadel. A simple fix that should keep everyone pocket lined is all we need.
1. Remove the writers and coaches from voting. Using us as an example, but I am sure this hold true for other schools. Some writers and coaches have a bias against certain coaches and schools. They will never vote for them (see Spurriers quotes about never voting for ND). Plus can they really watch every game. Is a 3 point win against Pitt, less of a win than a 51 point win against the Citadel! But some coaches and writers just look at the score and the team that beat Citadel by 51 gets mote votes. Teams get style points for big margins of victory. Throw that stat out. Are some wins luckier than other? Yep, look at the Navy game, again. Just like in March Madness create a committee responsible for researching the games played and creating a top 25 for publication Tuesday morning.
2. Break up the conference. Go back to 10 team conferences. You may actually gain more revenue from each team playing a great non-conference schedule, than anything a single championship game could provide. The conference has the opportunity to play 30 great non-conference games. If 15 were home games, I am sure ticket sells and TV revenue would be great. Greater than one game.
3. Remove FCS schools from the schedule. Allow them to have a scrimmage in August against these teams.
4. Break ties the real way, head-to-head, common opponents, conference record, and strength of schedule anything but a voter.

At the end of the season let the records speak for themselves. Pick the best teams to play in a BCS championship game. I would feel better about Oklahoma playing in this game if it had replaced Chattanooga with Stanford, Pitt, or even Syracuse. But I could say that about any top 10 team except USC.

What really is bothering me about this is once ESPN takes over the BCS, we are done. Don’t think for one minute they will not yield great power over the BCS once their TV right kick in. Their love for USC, the SEC, and hatred of ND will practically never allow us a chance at the NC. If we go 12 – 0 with a schedule similar to next years, they will never let us in, they will use it against us. One lose against anyone would be to much for us to overcome. How many of the ESPN guys are voters. The problem ESPN has with ND, specifically football is, they can’t make any money from us. No chances to broadcast a game, sell commercial time, and put our stuff in the ESPN store. What really worries me is that they will have such great power over this and the next time the BCS formula is up for renewal they will find away to shut us out. We are going to either have to break the NBC contract, which would not be all that bad, and go with ESPN or become a TV free agent or join a conference. NBC telecast are to long and the announcers suck. If ESPN can not get our TV rights, they will push being part of a conference as a major point in getting into the NC game.
 

PADOMERNUT

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I think you are overreacting. ESPN is not going to intentionally screw us out of the BCS
 

ShamrockOnHelmet

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The bowl system NEVER worked. In fact, there really is no such thing as a "bowl system". Bowls are exhibition games, nothing more.

Its quaint, unique, and stirs conversation, but the wrong kind of conversation. Its an anachronism. If you think the bowls are great because of their "tradition", then that is accepting tradition for its own sake, which is a lesson that it seems anyone in South Bend has a hard time learning.

The only real solution is 16 team playoff, but I'll take 4 to start. Expansion of the field is inevitable. What I don't understand is why people think bowl exhibition games and a playoff are mutually exclusive? They can both coexist, though the top 4 bowls will have to accept the reality of not having the best 4 teams available.

Whats funny is the moot-ness of the discussion. A playoff WILL happen in my lifetime. The combination of political pressures, economics, and ascension of forward thinking administrators will lead to a legitimate playoff.
 

Irish Rogue

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While it's nice to watch the home games. The coverage at NBC is lousy, and the announcers are even worse. This might not be a bad thing to end the NBC marriage. When they originaly signed with NBC that is when all the Haters came out. Translation= Bowl losses, bad officiating from conference crews, hatred from ESPN, high profile coaches (spurrier/paterno/miles) etc. Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but it's funny how the Bowl losses have piled up since the contract with NBC.
 

NDMontana

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I think you are overreacting. ESPN is not going to intentionally screw us out of the BCS

I agree with you.

The assumption with the writers is that, even though some may be homers, their votes will be balanced out by other writers. It would be impossible to rank teams without someone voting and it can't be left to the fans. The computers used in the BCS need a jumping off point and that is why the average ranking from those two polls are included.

I also think that the team needs to figure out how to go above .500 before we start worrying about getting screwed out of the BCS!
 

ACamp1900

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The bowl system NEVER worked. In fact, there really is no such thing as a "bowl system". Bowls are exhibition games, nothing more.

Its quaint, unique, and stirs conversation, but the wrong kind of conversation. Its an anachronism. If you think the bowls are great because of their "tradition", then that is accepting tradition for its own sake, which is a lesson that it seems anyone in South Bend has a hard time learning.

The only real solution is 16 team playoff, but I'll take 4 to start. Expansion of the field is inevitable. What I don't understand is why people think bowl exhibition games and a playoff are mutually exclusive? They can both coexist, though the top 4 bowls will have to accept the reality of not having the best 4 teams available.

Whats funny is the moot-ness of the discussion. A playoff WILL happen in my lifetime. The combination of political pressures, economics, and ascension of forward thinking administrators will lead to a legitimate playoff.

People like this make me want to scream... If you love seeing sports destroyed by playoffs you have evey other watered down sport in the country to enjoy... PLEASE leave cfb alone
 

MeanGreen

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My problem with any playoff is how will you pick the teams. March Madness works because basketball teams play 30 regular season games, conference tournament games and they can play every other day. The schedules somewhat even themselves out and if you do not play decent schedule you are left out when March comes around. Every year will still have issues with who did not get in. My fear with a playoff is how will you pick the 16 teams. Are we going to count on coaches and writers to pick them. They do not do that for March Madness. I believe the committee is made up of SID's, some conference officials, and other members of athletic departments. Again I will bring up schedules. I am sure in the 60's, 70's and 80's there was some controversy about the NC, but not like we have had lately. I believe the reason was everyone played a tough schedule. Check and see how many NC back then had Div IAA schools on their schedules. If you pick 16 number 17 is going to bitch, especially if the beat anyone of the 16 teams chosen. Then someone will take up their flag and point out a flaw in the system.
 

ACamp1900

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My problem with any playoff is how will you pick the teams. March Madness works because basketball teams play 30 regular season games, conference tournament games and they can play every other day. The schedules somewhat even themselves out and if you do not play decent schedule you are left out when March comes around. Every year will still have issues with who did not get in. My fear with a playoff is how will you pick the 16 teams. Are we going to count on coaches and writers to pick them. They do not do that for March Madness. I believe the committee is made up of SID's, some conference officials, and other members of athletic departments. Again I will bring up schedules. I am sure in the 60's, 70's and 80's there was some controversy about the NC, but not like we have had lately. I believe the reason was everyone played a tough schedule. Check and see how many NC back then had Div IAA schools on their schedules. If you pick 16 number 17 is going to bitch, especially if the beat anyone of the 16 teams chosen. Then someone will take up their flag and point out a flaw in the system.
exactly... people STILL won't be happy, we would have to endlessly tweak it, and in the process we have killed the intensity of the reg. season and destroyed the tradition of the bowl games that is unique to cfb...
 

IrishAddiction

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Teams that would make the top eight teams in the nation would be put in the race, decided much like the BCS style of voting just my opinion. No way the top 4-5 teams in the country would get left out. And as of right now, the team with the biggest loophole in the BCS is none other than our beloved irish, so to say we get screwed in the BCS is just dumb.
 

Rocket's Rocket Fan

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MeanGreen said:
My problem with any playoff is how will you pick the teams. March Madness works because basketball teams play 30 regular season games, conference tournament games and they can play every other day. The schedules somewhat even themselves out and if you do not play decent schedule you are left out when March comes around. Every year will still have issues with who did not get in. My fear with a playoff is how will you pick the 16 teams. Are we going to count on coaches and writers to pick them. They do not do that for March Madness. I believe the committee is made up of SID's, some conference officials, and other members of athletic departments. Again I will bring up schedules. I am sure in the 60's, 70's and 80's there was some controversy about the NC, but not like we have had lately. I believe the reason was everyone played a tough schedule. Check and see how many NC back then had Div IAA schools on their schedules. If you pick 16 number 17 is going to bitch, especially if the beat anyone of the 16 teams chosen. Then someone will take up their flag and point out a flaw in the system.

But we have that now too. I would rather hear bitching about who the number 17th team is than the number 1 or 2.

I would really like to see a playoff system. Why should every other level of football have one, but college should not? Its the only way to decide who the best team is.
 

NDFan537

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First and foremost please everyone don't talk about us getting screwed out of the BCS. If we win 9 games we are in, that is the qualifications. Look we are a 6-6 team and I bet there are 7-5 teams that didn't get a bowl. Come on I loved Brady and the boys too but did we have any chance in the Sugar Bowl? No. We were there though.

As for the solution. In my mind it is a playoff. Look I am not the smartest guy in the world but if every other major sport college and pro has some form of a playoff, why wouldn't college football. Even if you had the 4 BCS games and then the winners of each played a 4 team playoff that would give 8 teams a chance every year and no one would lose money. Shorten the length of the break from seasons end to start of bowl season and it would work.

This would also fix that lose early you are good, lose late you are screwed crap. A loss is a loss no matter when it comes.
 

jfjkd01

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USC, from what I gathered, is in a weaker division than say the BIG-12 or the SEC, that's why they got shafted, and I could careless about SC..............If Texas didn't lose to T.T in the last seconds of the game then maybe they would be in th N.C. game...........
 

ShamrockOnHelmet

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People like this make me want to scream... If you love seeing sports destroyed by playoffs you have evey other watered down sport in the country to enjoy... PLEASE leave cfb alone

Its going to suck to be you when it happens. Won't it? [shrug]
 

ShamrockOnHelmet

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My problem with any playoff is how will you pick the teams. March Madness works because basketball teams play 30 regular season games, conference tournament games and they can play every other day. The schedules somewhat even themselves out and if you do not play decent schedule you are left out when March comes around. Every year will still have issues with who did not get in. My fear with a playoff is how will you pick the 16 teams. Are we going to count on coaches and writers to pick them. They do not do that for March Madness. I believe the committee is made up of SID's, some conference officials, and other members of athletic departments. Again I will bring up schedules. I am sure in the 60's, 70's and 80's there was some controversy about the NC, but not like we have had lately. I believe the reason was everyone played a tough schedule. Check and see how many NC back then had Div IAA schools on their schedules. If you pick 16 number 17 is going to bitch, especially if the beat anyone of the 16 teams chosen. Then someone will take up their flag and point out a flaw in the system.

Yeah, but #17 has much less of a reason to bitch than #3 (say, I dunno, Texas). I understand your point, but that alone is no excuse to stand in the way of reason.
 

ShamrockOnHelmet

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...we have killed the intensity of the reg. season and destroyed the tradition of the bowl games that is unique to cfb...

Oh, not THIS tired argument. Not only will the regular season NOT be watered down, winning your conference will become EVEN MORE significant than it is now. Time take that phony old horse behind the barn and shoot it.
 

Dizzyphil

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When you have coaches and writers voting, there is going to be a love-hate relationship with certain teams. Look at the year we finished second behind the Seminoles in '93. Many said we should have been champs that year. Seminoles wound up being #1 because the writers and coaches listened to a coach by the name of Holtz who emphasized most of the year, "we are not that good of a team".

Diz
 

MeanGreen

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1993 was Bowden lifetime achievement award. They changed the rules on us. 1989 Miami got the NC because they beat us, that was the criteria.
I would be for a playoff, if you make changes. It may only be 1 or 2 games on a schedule, but please lets get away from these games against Citdel, UL-L, Chattanooga, and others. Say Oklahoma played Ohio State, Penn State, USC, or Alabama instead of Chattanooga maybe they lose that game. The same could be said for Florida about the Citadel game. One game makes a difference ask Texas, USC, and Penn State. Even creating a schedule that includes Michigan, Notre Dame, and Tennessee, is no guarantee. These program can have bad year(s), but at least the are on the same level as far as recruits and facilities. Create a committee similar to the Final Four committee to rank the teams. Give the computer ranks more weight, they are unbiased.
 

phgreek

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The bowl system NEVER worked. In fact, there really is no such thing as a "bowl system". Bowls are exhibition games, nothing more.

Its quaint, unique, and stirs conversation, but the wrong kind of conversation. Its an anachronism. If you think the bowls are great because of their "tradition", then that is accepting tradition for its own sake, which is a lesson that it seems anyone in South Bend has a hard time learning.

The only real solution is 16 team playoff, but I'll take 4 to start. Expansion of the field is inevitable. What I don't understand is why people think bowl exhibition games and a playoff are mutually exclusive? They can both coexist, though the top 4 bowls will have to accept the reality of not having the best 4 teams available.

Whats funny is the moot-ness of the discussion. A playoff WILL happen in my lifetime. The combination of political pressures, economics, and ascension of forward thinking administrators will lead to a legitimate playoff.

I'm a fan of playoffs, but we need to look at some practical limitations. Here is what I see...

Anything more than 12 games in a year is bad. These are not pros, and this isn't basketball

So, of 12 games how many do you give up to non-conference teams...lets say 3...leaves 9

now in a 4 team playoff scenario, you are looking at 2 games...leaves 7

now you are looking at a bowl...leaves 6

you have 6 conference games in a 10 team conference to figure out who the winner is...thats asking for ties, and conference playoffs...can't do that lest we violate 12 game schedule.

So drop the bowl...a little better, but the odds are that you will still need a conference championship of sorts to decide...maybe even a 2 game conference playoff

This playoff thing seems real hard, and I see anything above 4 teams as impossible, and throwing a bowl in with the playoffs...man, I can't see it.

I'm sure I'm missing something, so straighten me out here...

I love this discussion...great post.
 

NeuteredDoomer

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I'm a fan of playoffs, but we need to look at some practical limitations. Here is what I see...

Anything more than 12 games in a year is bad. These are not pros, and this isn't basketball

So, of 12 games how many do you give up to non-conference teams...lets say 3...leaves 9

now in a 4 team playoff scenario, you are looking at 2 games...leaves 7

now you are looking at a bowl...leaves 6

you have 6 conference games in a 10 team conference to figure out who the winner is...thats asking for ties, and conference playoffs...can't do that lest we violate 12 game schedule.

So drop the bowl...a little better, but the odds are that you will still need a conference championship of sorts to decide...maybe even a 2 game conference playoff

This playoff thing seems real hard, and I see anything above 4 teams as impossible, and throwing a bowl in with the playoffs...man, I can't see it.

I'm sure I'm missing something, so straighten me out here...

I love this discussion...great post.
You are one sharp mofo phgreek.

I say no playoffs and less bowl games. Funny to be aware of the evolution of college football from a bunch of students playing a game for fun to the business it has become.

But they used to be college students just being men, having fun, and maybe relieving some stress.

Nothing like people using pups to make millions. 13 regular season games? C'mon now. Whole thing has been spiraling stupid for a while. Don't make it stupider.


Agree with MeanGreen's and Dizzy's last posts. Actually I agree with most of the posts.

System will never be exact, but so far seems "close enough." ND got fucked in 93, Texas got screwed this year, but who is to say for sure? It be what it be right now. It will further evolve. Hopefully someone will remember that these are just college pups.
 
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ShamrockOnHelmet

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I'm a fan of playoffs, but we need to look at some practical limitations. Here is what I see...

Anything more than 12 games in a year is bad. These are not pros, and this isn't basketball

I'm sure I'm missing something, so straighten me out here...

I love this discussion...great post.

FCS, DII and DIII teams can and do play up to 15 games if they make the championship game of their tournament.

THIS is where the NCAA is hypocritical. They say a DI playoff won't work, yet the do it ALL OTHER football divisions.
 

NDFan537

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I agree with you mean green but what I don't know is how would we prevent them from playing those schools. Are you suggesting to just penalize them for strenghth of schedule? That is what the BCS does. The big 12 and SEC were just really good and that is why even with the crap games UF and OU were still stronger than the rest. The fairness under the new system is not there and as for 93 that was just a bad deal. I do wish there was another way but it appears the system is here for a while longer.
 

phgreek

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FCS, DII and DIII teams can and do play up to 15 games if they make the championship game of their tournament.

THIS is where the NCAA is hypocritical. They say a DI playoff won't work, yet the do it ALL OTHER football divisions.

Yea, can't ignore that point...I gotta give you that.

not sure I like it for FCS, DII and DIII either...but, who in the hell is going to build a BCS for Div III...guessing they have no choice but to duke it out.
 

phgreek

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You are one sharp mofo phgreek..

Just tryin to keep up with you boys...

I say no playoffs and less bowl games. Funny to be aware of the evolution of college football from a bunch of students playing a game for fun to the business it has become.].

yea...a business it most certainly is...

But they used to be college students just being men, having fun, and maybe relieving some stress.

Nothing like people using pups to make millions. 13 regular season games? C'mon now. Whole thing has been spiraling stupid for a while. Don't make it stupider.].

using the pups is what makes this so hard...WTF is the NCAA good for...they only bust programs that have been blatant enough to win, and they can't seem to make the far reaching decisions...like reasonable games/season liits


Agree with MeanGreen's and Dizzy's last posts. Actually I agree with most of the posts.

System will never be exact, but so far seems "close enough." ND got fucked in 93, Texas got screwed this year, but who is to say for sure? It be what it be right now. It will further evolve. Hopefully someone will remember that these are just college pups.

I always felt like if we didn't go undefeated we didn't have a prayer to play for a NC...even when our schedule was perenially the toughest in the country

"someone" is right, cause it ain't been the NCAA...
 

MeanGreen

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Not sure what the solutions is and even if all of us genius here find an answer I doubt the NCAA would accept it. I guess I just do not like the conferences being so big and getting so much credit. Back in the 70's and 80's when PSU, FSU, Miami, BC, PITT, WVU were all independents it just seemed to me when someone was picked there was some debate but it always came down to their schedule, head-to-head competition, etc. Since the conference have expanded, I blame JoePa, and the policy of scheduling FCS teams it has become a cluster you know what. I would love a playoff that was fair. If the games are played this time of year little or no school is missed. Maybe we just break the country done into regions like the Final Four and move team along that way. No matter what I think or read, I still would want someone to balance out the schedules. Really though I could care less this year, but I just know whether we are 12 - 0 or 11 - 1 we are going to get screwed. They will pick our schedule, we did not place a conference championship game, something. I have a feeling once ESPN takes control that the possibility of us getting screwed increases.
 

NDFan537

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See I think the opposite, Mean. We don't play in a conference so alot of the time we play the best of all of the conferences'. Like this year many of you would say we played a weak schedule and I might agree. We did play the #2 team in the ACC BC, the #2 in the Big Ten MSU, and the #1 in the PAC 10 USC. Also Pitt finished high in the BIG EAST. We didn't play the Iowa States of the big conferences'.(exception being Mich. , but they are usually in the top of the BIG10.) Look if ND wants to strenghten up the schedule they could stop playing the military academys. Other than that most of the time our schedule is tougher than alot, not all, but alot of BCS conference teams.
 

ShamrockOnHelmet

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That what people don't get about our schedules, though. There may be years where its junk, but there's some years where we're playing everyone elses best. And also, people COMPLETELY underestimate the academies. Those are damn near the toughest, most physical games we play. When someone cracks on our schedule (with them sporting the Citadel, McNeese State or Southwest Missouri Tech) I just laugh.
 

NDMontana

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See I think the opposite, Mean. We don't play in a conference so alot of the time we play the best of all of the conferences'. Like this year many of you would say we played a weak schedule and I might agree. We did play the #2 team in the ACC BC, the #2 in the Big Ten MSU, and the #1 in the PAC 10 USC. Also Pitt finished high in the BIG EAST. We didn't play the Iowa States of the big conferences'.(exception being Mich. , but they are usually in the top of the BIG10.) Look if ND wants to strenghten up the schedule they could stop playing the military academys. Other than that most of the time our schedule is tougher than alot, not all, but alot of BCS conference teams.

I agree but Notre Dame will not stop playing the military academies. We have an honorable, long standing commitment--not in writing--to play those schools. The military academies were always willing to schedule ND back in the 40's and 50's when a lot of schools were refusing to play ND. It's a gentlemen's agreement.
 

chyrspchuck

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I like the mix of schedule right now. With the service academies it gives them exposure they don't normally get while it gives us a little softer game to offset the tough ones like the USC,Michigan,Tennessee,Nebraska,Oklahoma,FSU games.
 

NDFan537

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I was by no means complaining about the schedule or playing the acadamies. I was just saying we do have a tough schedule most of the time Just wanted to be clear.
 

NeuteredDoomer

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D I is always tough, no matter the "name" or "history" of the school, especially when they know they are playing on national TV. Maybe you have to have confidence in your own game rather than worry about who you are playing.
 
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