A (hopefully) Objective look

[piyachi]

There has been a lot of vitriol flying around of late, and though it may seem this is rehashing something that shouldn't have ever been 'hashed' to some I think it's important to really break down the facts and numbers on Coach Weis. Some clearly think he is overrated, some think that he is everything he is cracked up to be. Let's take a look.....

Ok I'm going to break this down into Categories since there is a lot of ground to cover as far as being a head coach (these may be too subjective, so feel free to criticize....in a logical manner). Lets see here..... Record (factored into this is the quality of the opponent), Offensive and Defensive numbers, quality of assistants that they bring to the program, academic standards (this really only applies to a few schools unfortunately), character of the individual (and character of their players during their tenure), and recruiting (we will default to the pay services here - frankly they know more than I do).

1. Record
As you can tell if you have paid any attention to the news, and/or 'The Fulmer Cup' what most schools care about are whether there is a W or an L at the end of the day. This is no exception at ND and with all that tradition and whatnot, we love to see her loyal sons marching to victory. First lets cross-check Weis and his 2.15 (or somethin' like that) against all the other coaches we have had, and their first 3 seasons if they got that far, starting with Rockne. (thanks GH!)

Rockne - 21-1-2
Anderson - 19-6-2
Layden - 19-6-1
Leahy - 24-2-3
Mckeever 8-2-0
Devore - 9-9-1
Brennen - 19-11-0
Kuharich - 12-18-0
Parseghian - 25-3-2
Devine - 28-7-0
Faust - 18-15-1
Holtz - 25-10-0
Davie - 21-16-0
Willingham - 21-15-0
Weis - 19-8-0

So where in this chain does Weis look to fit? Granted these things vary, and I can't forsee the future (yet!) but it seems like he slides in around Holtz. Assuming we finish out with 5 wins and 7 losses (may sound pessimistic) he will be 24-13-0, not far off of Holtz' mark.

Lets also compare him to some current 'sucessful' coaches after their first 3 years:

Pete Carroll (that's a girls name!) - 29-9-0
Urban Meyer - 24-4-0 (also at the 2.15 phase)
Jim Tressel - 29-7-0

So essentially if this season sucks it, Weis is a little behind these 3 coaches at their respective 3-season mark.

Whew thats part one - more to come tonight....

 

[piyachi]

2. Offensive and Defensive numbers

Usually when an assistant rises above the pack and manages to scrabble up to the top of the heap in order to become a head coach, it's because they have done something drastic for either the offense or defense of the team they leave. We all (I hope) know that Weis made his mark on the Patriots through offensive acumen, or at least thats the story. Lets take a look at how other head coaches at ND have affected the O and D production 3 years in. Now this all depends on what their predecessor did, so again it is a little more subjective.

PF PA
Rockne - 25.16 - 5.53
Anderson - 11.93 - 5.56
Layden - 14.03 - 6.93
Leahy - 23.9 - 7.66
Mckeever - 27.2 - 11.8
Devore - 19.1 - 14.8
Brennen - 16.7 - 20.53
Kuharich - 15.23 - 18.33
Parseghian - 30.63 - 6.26
Devine - 27.23 - 12.63
Faust - 22.03 - 15.03
Holtz - 29.43 - 17.03
Davie - 26.0 - 22.9
Willingham -22.3 - 21.8
Weis - 33.7 - 24.2 (this doesnt include this seasons 7.0 and 31.5 avg)

One thing that really sticks out here is how the better coaches have a good differential between points fielded and allowed. Thats pretty much an indicator of which coaches have gone down in legend and which ones have gotten the boot. Now its REALLY tough to say how Weis will stack up at the end of this season, seeing as the scoreboard numbers have been atrocious on both ends (like thumbtacks, hurt goin' in and comin' out). But in the completed seasons Weis has really stacked up pretty well, again comparing relative to Holtz.

* Little side-note.... HOW DOMINANT WAS PARSEGHIAN?!??! Scary good with those numbers.

On the whole a 9 point differential is middle-of-the-road to above par. Clearly Weis has vamped up the O (at least the first two seasons) while suffering some blows to a traditionally tough D. So far this category still looks favorably on Weis.

 

[piyachi]

3. Quality of assistants

Good coaches usually surround themselves with good assistants. Knowing who knows their stuff is a sign of a quality head coach. For example the whole Belachick, Parcells tree has garnered a lot of attention because it seems like great assistants flock to them.

Now this part isn't my strong suit, although I recognize it as an important factor. Citizens of IE! Lend me your keyboards! Someone with (them mAd hAxx0r skill3z) please give some input here, and back it up with facts, not opinions, as much as possible. I frankly have no clue where to look for info on such a wealth of people, so help here is appreciated.

Also this is a major point for what people have taken away from this young season so far. Some want Ianello beheaded, others think Mendoza is actually inflatable and that isn't muscle. So this is a major point of contention in logically judging Weis.

 

[johnnd05]

All I have to say on the assistants question is that Corwin Brown is the TRUTH. CW deserves major credit for bringing him in.

While I'm at it, though, let me say that anyone who doesn't rep Piyachi after this effort is going to pay for it in the afterlife.

 

[piyachi]

4. Character

Character is something that might not show as plainly as td/int ratio, but I would argue that ultimately it makes winners and losers of us all. Character is when you get knocked down but get back up, when you help those that can't help themselves, when you forgive someone when you don't have to. In terms of football, it's why M. Vick is not a winner but Brady Quinn is. This isn't black and white but it certainly plays a part.

First: Weis vs Weis

Pros:
The Hannah and Friends Foundation
Pass Right
Upholds ND's standards - (maybe this is a job requirement?)

Cons:
Can be hostile to the press?

This isn't the Truman show and I am not QUITE creepy enough to follow the man everywhere, but in terms of public persona, Weis seems to more than pass the grade. There are many accounts of him working extremely long hours, and then spending a large amount of his personal time for charity work. Some people take the man as a 'blowhard' or at least coming off as unfriendly. Maybe this is true, maybe he is a jerk that objectively does good deeds but is rotten to be around. I must say I don't get that impression from the way that players act around him and speak about him. Those who seem to know him best seem to like him a lot, and have a lot of respect for him.

Now I three years old the last time ND won the NC (not counting 93). So there have been a lot of coaches that came and passed before my time. If anyone feels like comparing him against the line of ND coaching royalty, please do because I cannot.

As for comparison to current coaches.... (I'll use the axis of football evil again)

Petey Carroll (that's a girl's name!)
- Has a lot of player support - they seem to like him
- Has done some charity work I believe
- Allowed NCAA violations including Bush being paid (not sure if this is his fault or not)
- Owns the police? Sanchez thinks so

Jim Tressel
- Upped the academic standards supposedly
- Allowed Mo Clarett to stay on the team (again...no idea if MC was an Israeli thug yet)

Urban Meyer
- Turned down the ND job because he didn't believe he could win with them (con)
- UF's crime rate (along with win pcntg) has been climbing rapidly


Now again these are what's rattling inside this brain o' mine so if ant80 or someone wants to drop more in, please do. Overall I really do think Weis conducts himself as one of the classier, if gruff, coaches in CFB today (at least for major programs). He doesn't snipe at other programs, or talk about how some conference is weak (independent baby, woohoo).
In this regard I would say again he is at the top of the heap. Pass right cemented that as far as I am concerned.

 

[The Polish Irishman]

"All I have to say on the assistants question is that Corwin Brown is the TRUTH. CW deserves major credit for bringing him in."

For being an objective thread, I would say it is hard to claim Corwin Brown as the "truth "already. Lets wait until we hold opponents to under 30 points a game. Only time will time it the "Truth" is real.


PS..I do think Brown was a good hire, but once again time will tell

 

[piyachi]

5. Recruiting, the great American pasttime

Now I saved this until the end because I think it truly does make a great case for Weis. There is a semi-legitimate measuring stick for this in the rankings of the pay sites. Yes, they get it wrong sometimes, yes they have biases, and yes a lot happens to football players past the age of 17. But there is also a discernible difference between bringing in the haul that SC has since Carroll (thats a girls name!) has for 5 years and what say IU has. Good coaches coach up their talent whether it be 5 star or 2 star, but genetics and HS experience plays a role in the floor and ceiling for a given player (ahhh so THATS why I'm not out there on the field)

Now these services haven't been around forever, in fact the internet(s) are probably the reason for their existence. So really where this comparison works is Weis vs Willingham (aka the message board prime-time bout). Without further ado:

Rivals first, then scout

Willingham class ranks: 24, 12 , 32, 40
Weis class ranks: 8, 8, 1

Willingham class ranks: 13, 5, 30, 27
Weis class ranks: 5, 11, 1

Now that one middling class really belongs more to TW than CW, hence the grouping. I'm not even going to bother to average these out because the differential should be obvious to anyone that can sign onto a message board without assistance. Few would argue that Charlie is a better recruiter, and the pay services certainly agree with that.

Lets also see how the other three big-time coaches have done in terms of recruiting in their first three years.


Scout
Petey Carroll (that's a girls name!): n/a, 12, 1
Urban Meyer: 2, 1, 37
Jim Tressel: n/a, 3, 25

Rivals
Petey Carroll (that's a girls name!): n/a, 11, 3
Urban Meyer: 2, 1, 33
Jim Tressel: n/a, 5, 41

Now this actually surprised me quite a bit. I thought Petey Pablo was going to jump off the boards but he actually followed a similar path as Weis (2001 stats not available). We shall see how this year really ends up (I for one don't think we will lose a single player that has verballed so far - real bunch of class acts in that group), but Charlie is on path to average out better recruiting talent than 3 people who have won NC's. Willingham..... wasn't on that path.

These rankings lead me to think that Charlie will have a team that will rival USC's juggernaut if we can coach those players as effectively come gameday (with the caveat that they need to get some experience). This puts Weis at the tippy-top of the pile among todays premier coaches. Oh and none of the people Weis is recruiting are out sexually assaulting women (Sanchez, I'm looking at you), or firing of AK's like a Floridian jihaddi (sp?).

 

[piyachi]

Let me sum it up......

I think that Weis is very favorable when compared to some current coaches that aren't getting lambasted by their fan base, and also fits well into the mold of the ND-Supastar coach (coach U?).

I tried to be objective here, but I will freely admit I like Weis as a person and am swayed by the good vibe I get about him. So people, please if you respond here, back it up with facts, or at least refrain from bashing coaches, players or other people on the board.

GO IRISH

 

[piyachi]

Haha thanks John. And so far Corwin seems to be doing well, but that's another 'lets see come january' sort of thing. I like the guy a lot and I REALLY hope he is the answer for our D.

 

[onenybrother]

4. Character

Character is something that might not show as plainly as td/int ratio, but I would argue that ultimately it makes winners and losers of us all. Character is when you get knocked down but get back up, when you help those that can't help themselves, when you forgive someone when you don't have to. In terms of football, it's why M. Vick is not a winner but Brady Quinn is. This isn't black and white but it certainly plays a part.

First: Weis vs Weis

Pros:
The Hannah and Friends Foundation
Pass Right
Upholds ND's standards - (maybe this is a job requirement?)

Cons:
Can be hostile to the press?

This isn't the Truman show and I am not QUITE creepy enough to follow the man everywhere, but in terms of public persona, Weis seems to more than pass the grade. There are many accounts of him working extremely long hours, and then spending a large amount of his personal time for charity work. Some people take the man as a 'blowhard' or at least coming off as unfriendly. Maybe this is true, maybe he is a jerk that objectively does good deeds but is rotten to be around. I must say I don't get that impression from the way that players act around him and speak about him. Those who seem to know him best seem to like him a lot, and have a lot of respect for him.

Now I three years old the last time ND won the NC (not counting 93). So there have been a lot of coaches that came and passed before my time. If anyone feels like comparing him against the line of ND coaching royalty, please do because I cannot.

As for comparison to current coaches.... (I'll use the axis of football evil again)

Petey Carroll (that's a girl's name!)
- Has a lot of player support - they seem to like him
- Has done some charity work I believe
- Allowed NCAA violations including Bush being paid (not sure if this is his fault or not)
- Owns the police? Sanchez thinks so

Jim Tressel
- Upped the academic standards supposedly
- Allowed Mo Clarett to stay on the team (again...no idea if MC was an Israeli thug yet)

Urban Meyer
- Turned down the ND job because he didn't believe he could win with them (con)
- UF's crime rate (along with win pcntg) has been climbing rapidly


Now again these are what's rattling inside this brain o' mine so if ant80 or someone wants to drop more in, please do. Overall I really do think Weis conducts himself as one of the classier, if gruff, coaches in CFB today (at least for major programs). He doesn't snipe at other programs, or talk about how some conference is weak (independent baby, woohoo).
In this regard I would say again he is at the top of the heap. Pass right cemented that as far as I am concerned.

Thank you. Let's Go Irish!!!

 

[johnnd05]

"All I have to say on the assistants question is that Corwin Brown is the TRUTH. CW deserves major credit for bringing him in."

For being an objective thread, I would say it is hard to claim Corwin Brown as the "truth "already. Lets wait until we hold opponents to under 30 points a game. Only time will time it the "Truth" is real.


PS..I do think Brown was a good hire, but once again time will tell

No man, Corwin is the TRUTH. Bank it.

The "30 pts a game" stat is more than a bit misleading ... in the first place, seven of PSU's points game on a kick return. Secondly, GT's field position was absurdly favorable. Thirdly, loads of those points have come late in the game when our lack of depth really starts to kill us.

I repeat: Corwin is the TRUTH. Wait 'til January if you want, but I'm bankin' in the meantime.

 

[The Polish Irishman]

No man, Corwin is the TRUTH. Bank it.

The "30 pts a game" stat is more than a bit misleading ... in the first place, seven of PSU's points game on a kick return. Secondly, GT's field position was absurdly favorable. Thirdly, loads of those points have come late in the game when our lack of depth really starts to kill us.

I repeat: Corwin is the TRUTH. Wait 'til January if you want, but I'm bankin' in the meantime.

Just an objective point of view, I will still wait to see if Corwin is the so called truth, he has not done anything to deserve this title. Remember no one of his recruits has signed or played a game. How many rushing yards has our defense given up? I not trying to make excuses, just being objective.

 

[Sureal]

Personally I like what I see from the Defense. All of these rushing yards the team is getting is because of the lack of depth up front and the constant 3 and outs produced by our offense. You are going to get mistakes every so often in the passing game but as a whole we look way better scheme wise than we have the last couple of years. If you look at the beginning of the last two games we've done well. They just get tired.

BTW Trevor Laws is a first rounder, I don't care what anyone says. this kid is the truth

 

[wallym]

Just like the last 2 years, our Offense is sometimes our best defense. We have to sustain drives, and get the field position changed. You can't put our D and punter in the situations we have.

I think we improved a ton on the corners of the D and stopping the outside runs.

 

[goldandblue]

Personally I like what I see from the Defense. All of these rushing yards the team is getting is because of the lack of depth up front and the constant 3 and outs produced by our offense. You are going to get mistakes every so often in the passing game but as a whole we look way better scheme wise than we have the last couple of years. If you look at the beginning of the last two games we've done well. They just get tired.

BTW Trevor Laws is a first rounder, I don't care what anyone says. this kid is the truth

I agree with the Laws statement. He is a beast on the D-Line. Very glad to have him up there this year.

 

[connor_in]

I hope Corwin turns out to be the truth...

...I seriously liked our defense against Papa Joe's boys for about 2.5 quarters before sheer weariness, lack of depth, and frustration with the offensive (in more ways than one) unit set in...

Keep your heads up men! No where to go but up! You will reawaken the echoescheering her name soon...