5 Dead in TN military shootings

[NDgradstudent]

Consider the following remark earlier in this thread:

Disagreements are obviously fine and needed but not at the cost of upsetting posters or inhibiting discussion.

I do not believe that I broke any forum "rules," which are not written down anywhere and seem to be enforced capriciously. I have been the subject of many personal attacks; I have not launched any. I never make ad hominem arguments because they are illogical, not because I am worried about "offending" anybody. I also believe that discussion is inhibited far more posters using images like this one as their entire response to an argument than it is by anything I have ever posted here.

Posters cannot say anything that will "upset" other posters? This is an absurd standard that is impossible to meet. It is entirely boundless, arbitrary, and stifling.

We live in an extremely sensitive age. The truth is frequently upsetting to people, but that is not my problem. Meaningful political discussion involves controversy. If there was no division, there would be no politics.

Nobody needs to tell me that IE is the not the government, and so the First Amendment does not apply to it. The point is that it is a valuable to have a culture of free speech even outside the law. The rules governing debate, such as not talking over others, waiting your turn, and so on, facilitate free speech. But these rules do not forbid the expression of an opinion because it is upsetting to other people. My actual offense is having different opinions from some other posters here.

Unlike the shooter in this case (who apparently wanted to confirm the stereotype he complained about in his high school yearbook) I am not interested in self-pity. But when we cannot discuss issues (such as Muslim immigration) which have massive effects upon our society, the quality of the forum declines. As soon as some opinions are ruled off-limits, every other opinion is also at risk. The only limiting principle is a game of figuring out how many people are "upset" by some opinion- which is no limiting principle at all.

 

[Cackalacky]

Consider the following remark earlier in this thread:


I do not believe that I broke any forum "rules," which are not written down anywhere and seem to be enforced capriciously. I have been the subject of many personal attacks; I have not launched any. I never make ad hominem arguments because they are illogical, not because I am worried about "offending" anybody. I also believe that discussion is inhibited far more posters using images like this one as their entire response to an argument than it is by anything I have ever posted here.

Posters cannot say anything that will "upset" other posters? This is an absurd standard that is impossible to meet. It is entirely boundless, arbitrary, and stifling.

We live in an extremely sensitive age. The truth is frequently upsetting to people, but that is not my problem. Meaningful political discussion involves controversy. If there was no division, there would be no politics.

Nobody needs to tell me that IE is the not the government, and so the First Amendment does not apply to it. The point is that it is a valuable to have a culture of free speech even outside the law. The rules governing debate, such as not talking over others, waiting your turn, and so on, facilitate free speech. But these rules do not forbid the expression of an opinion because it is upsetting to other people. My actual offense is having different opinions from some other posters here.

Unlike the shooter in this case (who apparently wanted to confirm the stereotype he complained about in his high school yearbook) I am not interested in self-pity. But when we cannot discuss issues (such as Muslim immigration) which have massive effects upon our society, the quality of the forum declines. As soon as some opinions are ruled off-limits, every other opinion is also at risk. The only limiting principle is a game of figuring out how many people are "upset" by some opinion- which is no limiting principle at all.

Alright I tried to handle this in PM with you and now you want to keep it going.... no one is saying you can't say what you want. But posters are also free to respond in their manner as well. You can post whatever you like. What you can't do is in the rules we discussed.

The problems arise when you make a claim, someone refutes it or attempts to present another side and you ignore it. You then post some other claim. Someone else tries to respond to it and you ignore that one. You then go to other threads and post similar crap like your first post in this thread. You know very well there are no muslim flags over state houses yet in two separate threads you post the same false dichotomy even after you have been corrected for lack of nuance. You also intentionally insult and paint Irishjayhawk as a "cause head" which is very close to a personal attack so spare me the claims that you haven't antagonized anyone.

Your pattern of posting behavior is called "arguing in bad faith". It pisses posters off obviously as to the response by numerous posters to virtually everyone of your posts. If you don't know this you do now. As you can see when several posters respond against to your bad faith arguments it causes threads to get derailed Like THIS one and it INHIBITS discussion in the thread. We have a great community in here and the mods do a great job of keeping threads on topic and enjoyable to read.

Its not about people agreeing with your POV. You are free to have that and express it. What you are not fee to do is antagonize the others in this community with bad faith (NEGATIVE POSTING see rule #3, 6 &7) posts. People are free to demolish your posts which happens quite often but I don't think you read them enough to know. You are also VERY free to post on another ND forum as much as you like. They might actually like it more than some here do. I suggest ND Nation as a starting point.

I have asked posters to back off of you. Moving forward I expect to see better from all posters. I consider this topic done. Anymore off-topic posts will be deleted. Move along.

 

[BGIF]

Chattanooga shooting: New details emerge about the gunman - CNN.com

By Holly Yan, Shimon Prokupecz and Evan Perez, CNN
Updated 9:15 AM ET, Mon July 20, 2015

(CNN)[Breaking news update at 9:16 a.m. ET]

Investigators have recovered writings from Chattanooga shooter Mohammad Abdulazeez that express dissatisfaction with the U.S. war on terror and other anti-U.S. sentiments, according to a person familiar with the family's interviews with investigators and a law enforcement official briefed on the investigation. The writings, some of which are more than a year old, are consistent with someone who is having suicidal thoughts, the sources said.

[Original story posted at 7:17 a.m. ET]

As the country mourns the deaths of five service members gunned down in Tennessee, investigators in both the United States and Jordan are trying to learn what prompted the attack.

Mohammad Abdulazeez first shot up a military recruiting center at a Chattanooga strip mall, then drove to local Navy operations support center and launched another attack, killing four Marines and a Navy sailor. He died in a gunfight with law enforcement.

A spate of new details have emerged over the past few days. Among them:

- Mohammad Abdulazeez suffered from depression and "was not the son we knew and loved," his family said in a written statement over the weekend. "We extend our deepest sympathies and condolences to the families of the honorable servicemembers and police officers who were victims of the shooting our son committed on Thursday." A police officer was among the wounded.

- The family has also told investigators that the 24-year-old had been abusing drugs for some time, according to a source familiar with the family's interviews with investigators. The drugs reportedly included "party drugs" and marijuana.

- Abdulazeez's family sent him to Jordan last year to get him away from Chattanooga friends who they said were bad influences on him, the relatives told investigators.

- Some of Abdulazeez's relatives and friends told investigators they detected changes in his behavior since he returned from Jordan last year, a law enforcement official said.

- Jordanian security investigators have interviewed Abdulazeez's extended family, asking where he went and who he spoke with, government sources there told CNN.

- Authorities are investigating a text message from Abdulazeez to a friend before the attack, law enforcement sources said. The message included an Islamic verse that says, "Whoever shows enmity to a friend of Mine, then I have declared war against him."

- Abdulazeez had a hard time keeping a job because of his manic depressive/bipolar disorder and drug use, for which he had sought treatment for with a psychiatrist, according to the source familiar with the family's interviews

- "It grieves us beyond belief to know that his pain found its expression in this heinous act of violence," the Abdulazeez family said in their statement.

CNN law enforcement analyst Tom Fuentes stressed that depression doesn't necessarily make anyone more likely to kill.

"I think mental health professionals would be not happy with what the parents are assessing, in saying, 'Well, he was depressed, and therefore that's why he became a killer like this,'" Fuentes said. "People with depression do not turn, necessarily, into psychopathic killers -- as he did."

U.S. Attorney Bill Killian said the shootings are being investigated as terrorism.

So far, there is nothing connecting the attacker to ISIS or other international terror groups, said Ed Reinhold, special agent in charge of the regional FBI office. Abdulazeez was not on any U.S. databases of suspected terrorists.

Boosting security
Some governors are increasing security measures for National Guard recruiters and military facilities. And several have called for armed National Guard members.

Motive unknown in Chattanooga shooting spree
Motive unknown in Chattanooga shooting spree 02:17
PLAY VIDEO
Florida Gov. Rick Scott ordered National Guard members at six state recruitment centers to be relocated to armories until security is improved. In addition, qualified Guard members will be armed.

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott has called for armed National Guard personnel at military facilities throughout the state.

And Oklahoma Gov. Mary Fallin authorized the arming of certain full-time personnel in military installations throughout the state.

"It is painful enough when we lose members of our armed forces when they are sent in harm's way," she said in a statement. "But it is unfathomable that they should be vulnerable for attack in our own communities."

Timeline: U.S. military recruiting center attacks, from New York to Chattanooga

Grief across the country
The victims came from across the country but united in Chattanooga, brought together by their service in the military.

Friend of sailor wounded in Chattanooga: You're a fighter
Friend of sailor wounded in Chattanooga: You're a fighter 03:06
PLAY VIDEO
Gunnery Sgt. Thomas Sullivan of Massachusetts was a two-time Purple Heart recipient. He served three tours of duty with the Marines.

Lance Cpl. Squire K. Wells, better known as "Skip," graduated from high school three years ago. The Georgia native joined the Marines in 2014 and had already earned a National Defense Service Medal.

Staff Sgt. David Wyatt of Arkansas served two tours of duty in Iraq and one in Afghanistan with the Marines. His wife posted about his death on Facebook. "He was such a great husband and father," one commenter wrote.

Sgt. Carson Holmquist was also a husband and father and served two tours of duty in Afghanistan with the Marines. Upon one of his homecomings, his family held up a sign that read, "We've waited 244 days for this moment. Welcome home Sgt. Holmquist."

And Petty Officer Randall Smith of Ohio was a logistics specialist for the Navy. He saw the gunman in last week's attack and warned people around him, family members said, but was unable to get away.

On Sunday, Smith's mother visited a makeshift memorial for the victims. Paula Proxmire cried as she left a baseball glove, a baseball and an American flag in honor of her son.

Red, white and blue balloons covered the memorial, along with a poster with pictures of the victims.

The poster had only two words on it: "OUR HEROS."

 

[ARALOU]

Could he have planned that attack on his own knowing there likely would be little or no resistance at the recruiting office? At the same time knowing that attacking the training facility would result in his death? Did someone in Jordan help him plan this shit?

 

[BGIF]

CNN TV reported Abdulazeez had a connection to Anwar al-Awlaki. Below is the only article I could find on the topic.

Evidence Chattanooga Gunman was Radicalized | WOKI-FM

Authorities investigating the Chattanooga shooting spree says evidence increasingly points to political and terrorist motives of Mohammod Youssuf Abdulazeez.

Justice Correspondent Evan Perez reports that, “There are signs of his radicalization, the radicalization of Mohammod Abdulazeez in the last couple of years, certainly dating back to some of his writings in 2013 in which he makes reference to Anwar al-Awlaki, the Yemeni-American cleric who was killed in a drone strike and in which he makes reference to the fact that he agrees with some of al-Awlaki’s teachings.”

(AP) A lawyer says an uncle of the shooter in last week’s killing of five U.S. servicemen in Tennessee has been in custody in Jordan since a day after the attack.

Abed al-Kader Ahmad al-Khateeb told The Associated Press today that he was barred from seeing his client and that family members were prevented from visiting. Al-Khateeb identified his client as Asaad Ibrahim Asaad Haj Ali, a maternal uncle of the Tennessee attacker, Muhammad Youssef Abdulazeez.

The Tennessee shooter had spent several months in Jordan last year, and a Jordanian government official said today that some of Abdulazeez’ relatives in Jordan were being questioned as part of an investigation into his time in the kingdom.

 

[BGIF]

Chattanooga shooter researched martyrdom, official says - CNN.com

By Shimon Prokupecz, CNN
Updated 3:59 PM ET, Tue July 21, 2015

(CNN)Chattanooga shooter Mohammad Abdulazeez conducted Internet searches on martyrdom as recently as a day before his shooting rampage took the lives of five service members in Tennessee, according to a person briefed on the investigation.

 

[BGIF]

FBI just had a briefing on the Chattanoga shootings.

Over 400 leads
700 -1000 agents working on the case full time.
At this time believe the shooter acted alone.
Treating this as home grown terrorist.
Friends and family have been questioned and will continue to be as investigations moves along.
Uncle overseas will be questioned in coordination with that local government jurisdiction.
Have identified where weapons were purchased but will not release info with investigation in progress.
After crashing through gate four were killed in the "motor pool area" outside the building. Abdulazeez then entered the building and pursued personnel. He exited the building from the rear and did not re-enter.
Two weapons not belonging to Abulazeez were found inside facility.
All shots to military personnel were from Abdulazeez weapons.
Deferred question about type and caliber of weapons to U.S. Military.
Deferred questions on deceased to release of autopsy info.
Deferred question about legality of officer issued weapon and marine's private weapon on "gun free" site to U.S. military.

 

[Grahambo]

Could he have planned that attack on his own knowing there likely would be little or no resistance at the recruiting office? At the same time knowing that attacking the training facility would result in his death? Did someone in Jordan help him plan this shit?

No.

 

[BGIF]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/22/u...column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

By MICHAEL S. SCHMIDT and JODI RUDORENJULY 21, 2015


WASHINGTON — Counterterrorism investigators have uncovered evidence the gunman who killed five service members last week in Chattanooga, Tenn., searched the Internet in the days leading up to the attack for Islamic materials about whether martyrdom would lead to forgiveness for his sins, like drunkenness and financial debt, according to law enforcement officials.

The searches are one part of a nuanced portrait of the 24-year-old gunman, Mohammod Abdulazeez, that investigators have patched together based on examinations of his electronic and online communications and interviews with his family and friends. The F.B.I., which is leading the investigation, has become increasingly convinced that Mr. Abdulazeez, who died in a shootout with police, turned to radical ideology as he struggled with severe mental health and financial issues, the officials said.

Investigators believe that one of the crucial factors in his radicalization may have been an uncle who lives in Jordan. The uncle, who is an American citizen and hosted Mr. Abdulazeez during a trip lasting several months to Jordan last year, has been detained there since Friday and interrogated by Jordanian intelligence officers. F.B.I. agents have been dispatched to Jordan to question him while other investigators in the United States are seeking to interview his associates.

Although counterterrorism officials have been warning of attacks from Americans radicalized online by the Islamic State, also known as ISIS or ISIL, investigators increasingly believe that Mr. Abdulazeez does not fit that model. The authorities have found no evidence that he was given orders to attack by any group overseas or was in touch with ISIS.

...

 

[woolybug25]

700 -1000 agents working on the case full time.

I admit that I haven't been keeping up with this story too much since it happened, but can someone explain to me why upwards of a 1,000 agents are assigned to a case where a gunman seemingly acted alone and was killed?

What could they possibly be doing at this point?

 

[kmoose]

I admit that I haven't been keeping up with this story too much since it happened, but can someone explain to me why upwards of a 1,000 agents are assigned to a case where a gunman seemingly acted alone and was killed?

What could they possibly be doing at this point?

Trying to identify whether or not someone helped/radicalized him, so that they can keep them from helping/radicalizing others?

 

[BGIF]

I admit that I haven't been keeping up with this story too much since it happened, but can someone explain to me why upwards of a 1,000 agents are assigned to a case where a gunman seemingly acted alone and was killed?

What could they possibly be doing at this point?

The speaker said 700-1000, that's between 2 and 3% of the FBI's 35,000 people. He didn't breakout the number of computer specialists, linguists, MEs, pathologists, ballistic specials, various and sundry analysts, and overseas foreign government liaisons from the Elliott Nesses beating the bushes following 400+ leads.

They're trying to confirm that he DID act alone and that this is NOT the first of other planned attacks.

An Army website says there are 9,500 recruiters at 1400 facilities. Then there are the other services.

Strikes me as a lot of potential soft targets that require answers now not later.


Meanwhile DOD must take steps to protect them. There apparently two guns in the hands of U,S. Personnel. One government issued and the other privately owned but both in violation of DOD regulations for gun free zones. That's got to change quickly but prudently to provide protection without turning into the O.K. Corral.