Chris "Belt To" Ash - Defensive Coordinator

IrishTusker

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Says who? The defensive game plan against BYU largely resembled the same game plan against Miami last year. Soft zone, generic 4-man pass rush that never got pressure --> Beck did whatever he wanted. History repeats. We can only hope, at this point, that particular game plan isn't the same for this year. That recipe is flawed and incompatible with the current players' strengths.
Right. It's the same mistakes again and again, on both sides of the ball; the coaches are testing the definition of insanity. Also, Ash's halftime adjustments only happened after BYU had already scored 21 points. He should have known before the game -or right away, after they marched down the field with ease- that his "plan" wasn't working.
 

fightingirish26

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Probably depends on the circumstances, yes? Any other year, this BYU road loss would probably be chalked up as a “quality loss.” But ND should be beyond that point, especially as a 10-point road favorite against a top-10 team (Yikes).

This loss comes on the heels of two similar losses last year that kept ND out of the playoffs. Another one against Miami this year, and it’s the same song and dance all over again. So, yeah, these types of losses are starting to pile up, and they kind of, sort of feel as bad as they seem. Let’s see how ND responds the rest of the way.

Win out, get into the playoffs, and all these qualms become moot.
Yup.

"Leave no doubt" had very little to do with the non Miami/BYU games. We werent kept out last year because we didnt look convincing enough in the other 10 games.

Leave no doubt was all about handling our business in the two big games this year. So far, 0/1.
 

Jiggafini19Deux

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I think injuries caught up to them a bit on defense. Use the bye week to get guys rest and treatment.

Schematically, figure things out. The coaches get paid quite well.
 

fightingirish26

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Goolsby on his podcast even stated that after watching the film it wasn't on Chris Ash it was the effort the players were giving. Basically stating the players had horrible effort.
I mean Moore was clearly not ready to play yet.

Shuler must be really hurting as well, I know his shoulder is less than 100%. Boy, do I feel for him. He's had no time to grieve.

I'm not sure I noticed anyone else clearly not putting in full effort. Confusion with zone responsibilities isnt necessarily horrible effort. But I haven't rewatched the game, nor do I plan on it.
 

Dale

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There is a considerable chance we don’t give up 28 points if JOB and Sanders start over Shuler and Moore. Tough to say, but it was that bad on some plays.
 

Irish#1

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Probably depends on the circumstances, yes? Any other year, this BYU road loss would probably be chalked up as a “quality loss.” But ND should be beyond that point, especially as a 10-point road favorite against a top-10 team (Yikes).

This loss comes on the heels of two similar losses last year that kept ND out of the playoffs. Another one against Miami this year, and it’s the same song and dance all over again. So, yeah, these types of losses are starting to pile up, and they kind of, sort of feel as bad as they seem. Let’s see how ND responds the rest of the way.

Win out, get into the playoffs, and all these qualms become moot.
This was a regular season game. That's why coaches like to move onto the next opponent after a game. If teams get too high or too down after a win/loss it typically leads to problems.
 

Dale

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There is plenty of ND beat ND to go around but just had to be said, I’ve rewatched most of the game at this point and honestly BYU was also just a lot better, or played a lot better in some places then I thought. Bear was accurate and decisive all night. Kasper dusted our guys. They do some clever things with pass protection, it’s not as simple as protect 7. They will protect 6.5 really and Bear combines that with a really deep drop, they combo block for it accordingly. Other plays with a PA read option type look slows the DL to keep to their run responsibilities. It’s all pretty clever. Uulave, Glasker, Satuale, both CBs are legit players. Like the they wouldn’t start here thing? Not the case on that night.
 

Irish#1

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Says who? The defensive game plan against BYU largely resembled the same game plan against Miami last year. Soft zone, generic 4-man pass rush that never got pressure --> Beck did whatever he wanted. History repeats. We can only hope, at this point, that particular game plan isn't the same for this year. That recipe is flawed and incompatible with the current players' strengths.
Nothing to base it upon, but I would guess that MF isn't going to allow Ash to play the same defense against Miami again.
 

IrishLax

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Goolsby on his podcast even stated that after watching the film it wasn't on Chris Ash it was the effort the players were giving. Basically stating the players had horrible effort.
do people actually not understand that "effort" is literally on the coach but more importantly that when guys are playing "tentative" on film it can have a lot to do with what they are being asked to do vs how hard they are trying to play
 

Dale

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do people actually not understand that "effort" is literally on the coach but more importantly that when guys are playing "tentative" on film it can have a lot to do with what they are being asked to do vs how hard they are trying to play

I think there are legitimate issues like McKinney getting lost for no reason in zone that are tangibly different than Shuler and Moore not showing up for run fits like they have for 2.5 years+

Shuler I don’t know. Moore had the concussion it sucks, but maybe he shouldn’t have played.
 

PutuporShutup

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There is plenty of ND beat ND to go around but just had to be said, I’ve rewatched most of the game at this point and honestly BYU was also just a lot better, or played a lot better in some places then I thought. Bear was accurate and decisive all night. Kasper dusted our guys. They do some clever things with pass protection, it’s not as simple as protect 7. They will protect 6.5 really and Bear combines that with a really deep drop, they combo block for it accordingly. Other plays with a PA read option type look slows the DL to keep to their run responsibilities. It’s all pretty clever. Uulave, Glasker, Satuale, both CBs are legit players. Like the they wouldn’t start here thing? Not the case on that night.
Agree on what BYU did, and how well they played and were prepared.

But what Ash did to counter made it even easier for them. Bear could either go at his quick first read or wait for someone to find the open spot in our soft zone in the mid game. BYU was one of the worst in the country with passes 10-20 yds going into the game, but they connected on a ton of them vs ND. The game plan was pretty much don't let bear scramble or complete a pass over 40yds for a td. We'll give them anything else they want. Then BYU got into the redzone easy, and really had unique schemes down there where our players were not ready or disciplined at all.

We have aggressive attacking players on D (Shuler, KVA, Bowen, sneed, dunham, Young) and then 2-3 lock down corners. Ash hardly asked them to do anything they're good at. Bear was under 40% completion vs man and almost 80% completion vs zone.

We blitzed some, but not much, but we hardly ever let the ends rush of the edge.
 

PutuporShutup

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I think there are legitimate issues like McKinney getting lost for no reason in zone that are tangibly different than Shuler and Moore not showing up for run fits like they have for 2.5 years+

Shuler I don’t know. Moore had the concussion it sucks, but maybe he shouldn’t have played.
There was complete confusion from our players on what the call was, what their responsibility was, where they line up, and what they were doing post snap. The confusion typically came when in zone, that's my issue with the zone, they were much better in man.

Look at one of BYU's first completions of the game on shuler. TE cuts in front of him, shuler is right there to drive on him and probably would just be a 4 yard gain setting up a 3rd and 5, instead he inexplicably just stops, looks to the left like "oh crap, am i supposed to be over there" then TE catches it and gains 15. So weird. That's why it's on coaching way more than the players because it was so many players confused not just 1 or 2, not able to play fast and aggressive, and having MA's. They flat out weren't prepared at all. I jokingly said they called the game and played like they were sick all week and couldn't practice, and pretty much came up with a scheme and plan on the flight over/morning of the game.
 

Silentkaw

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Yeah it’s pretty obvious to everyone but Goolsby apparently that it wasn’t a lack of effort it was that the players didn’t know what they were doing. I think it’s an old school meathead thing saying “well the players just need to try harder”
 

IrishLax

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There was complete confusion from our players on what the call was, what their responsibility was, where they line up, and what they were doing post snap. The confusion typically came when in zone, that's my issue with the zone, they were much better in man.

Look at one of BYU's first completions of the game on shuler. TE cuts in front of him, shuler is right there to drive on him and probably would just be a 4 yard gain setting up a 3rd and 5, instead he inexplicably just stops, looks to the left like "oh crap, am i supposed to be over there" then TE catches it and gains 15. So weird. That's why it's on coaching way more than the players because it was so many players confused not just 1 or 2, not able to play fast and aggressive, and having MA's. They flat out weren't prepared at all. I jokingly said they called the game and played like they were sick all week and couldn't practice, and pretty much came up with a scheme and plan on the flight over/morning of the game.
This is EXACTLY the problem. Zone defense is fine, we have seen lots of zone defense played lots of different ways here and get great results. Diaco '12 was a zone defense king. Clark Lea had some elite defenses playing lots of zone. If your guys look lost and slow out there... it does not really matter if it's man or zone or some combo... it's just bad teaching / bad coaching. You can't constantly have alignment issues, confusion, etc. and say it isn't on the coach.
 

IrishLax

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I think there are legitimate issues like McKinney getting lost for no reason in zone that are tangibly different than Shuler and Moore not showing up for run fits like they have for 2.5 years+

Shuler I don’t know. Moore had the concussion it sucks, but maybe he shouldn’t have played.
Yes, the question of "these guys look clearly hurt" is a different question. Reminds me of Matthias Farley gutting it out for a whole season on one shoulder and people questioning effort / toughness that he "can't tackle anymore".... and then being shocked when he got healthy and was instantly a pretty darn good NFL player. I think questioning effort is pretty lazy analysis from Goolsby when it's not actually effort... it's slow / soft play manifesting for many different reasons.
 

Dale

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You can't constantly have alignment issues, confusion, etc. and say it isn't on the coach.

I never said Ash doesn’t deserve a ton of responsibility for the issues. There were also more than one issues to go around and the propensity to say fire the coordinator and change the offense/defense is just stereotypical message board talk. The defense won’t be fixed if we call man but the same effort shows up against Miami. It just won’t be. People want the answers to be that easy and to not say or post an highlight ill against a player but they were BOTH issues.
 

PutuporShutup

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Again, you can blame the players or blame the coaches but generally speaking if your guys seem to bust coverage / have trouble getting lined up / are gesticulating pre-snap showing confusion... you're probably not doing a good job.

Confident this was a Sneed issue initially and if he plays his short flat zone, it's a 1-2 yd gain, then shuler obviously shuler forgets his 4 years of coaching on how you breakdown and tackle someone in space. Looks like the play was designed to go to the TE, then check down to RB if needed. Call was perfect from Ash, but you clearly don't have the players that are seniors prepared to execute it. Bear would have had to fit it to the TE potentially between shuler and moore to the TE.

Confusion for the nth time in zone, then shuler makes another bad play.

What's crazy to me is the confusion wasn't everyone every play, but it was tons of different players on a lot of different plays, and it seemed like byu's scheme always attacked the confused player. Maybe that was just unlucky for ND

Ash just can't coach/teach zone and structure the pressure packages based off it. Flat out
 

BleedBlueGold

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I never said Ash doesn’t deserve a ton of responsibility for the issues. There were also more than one issues to go around and the propensity to say fire the coordinator and change the offense/defense is just stereotypical message board talk. The defense won’t be fixed if we call man but the same effort shows up against Miami. It just won’t be. People want the answers to be that easy and to not say or post an highlight ill against a player but they were BOTH issues.

Just curious when anyone has legitimately been able to question player effort when they're actually being put in a position of strength? To me, that goes hand-in-hand. Coach to the players' strengths and they'll do the talking on the field. This defense is loaded with missiles who are constantly in attack mode. When the scheme calls for it, they go out and play fast, sharp, aggressive, and assignment-sound. Why deviate?
 

Dale

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Just curious when anyone has legitimately been able to question player effort when they're actually being put in a position of strength? To me, that goes hand-in-hand. Coach to the players' strengths and they'll do the talking on the field. This defense is loaded with missiles who are constantly in attack mode. When the scheme calls for it, they go out and play fast, sharp, aggressive, and assignment-sound. Why deviate?

The longest run of the game Shuler and Moore both know exactly what they need to do. Neither meets the toughness in the gap of the WR Kasper and he takes out both. The double pass Moore didn’t even try. Again he knew what was happening. The reverse Shuler was on his guy in man. He got blocked out the stadium while Moore wailed around again. Nobody had any confusion as to their responsibilities. You know who made the tackle on the reverse? Christian Gray ran an his ass off to get there. Played great on Saturday. BYU smacked them around by being tougher than the guy across from them.
 

arrowryan

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Again, you can blame the players or blame the coaches but generally speaking if your guys seem to bust coverage / have trouble getting lined up / are gesticulating pre-snap showing confusion... you're probably not doing a good job.


Adon Shuler is way worse than I thought. Good Lord.
 

Dale

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Confident this was a Sneed issue initially and if he plays his short flat zone, it's a 1-2 yd gain, then shuler obviously shuler forgets his 4 years of coaching on how you breakdown and tackle someone in space. Looks like the play was designed to go to the TE, then check down to RB if needed. Call was perfect from Ash, but you clearly don't have the players that are seniors prepared to execute it. Bear would have had to fit it to the TE potentially between shuler and moore to the TE.

Confusion for the nth time in zone, then shuler makes another bad play.

What's crazy to me is the confusion wasn't everyone every play, but it was tons of different players on a lot of different plays, and it seemed like byu's scheme always attacked the confused player. Maybe that was just unlucky for ND

Ash just can't coach/teach zone and structure the pressure packages based off it. Flat out

Isn’t this just basic cover 3? Sneed would have the middle hook zone with Bowen, nobody would have the flat. Shuler would have the curl. Sneed is doing what everyone wants to see. He read the play dropped into zone then latched onto a WR. That’s playing zone trusting your eyes and finding work.

Look at Sneed’s eyes at the start of the play and try to tell me he thinks the call is man. Soble is way off.
 
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IrishLax

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Adon Shuler is way worse than I thought. Good Lord.
Rumors of bum shoulder have to be true and ... if this is something that will get better with rest ... they gotta shut him down for Navy. His entire game is tackling, if he can't tackle you have to play other guys. If Tae Johnson comes back then it's probably safest just to go Johnson / Talich as your two dudes.
 

BleedBlueGold

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The longest run of the game Shuler and Moore both know exactly what they need to do. Neither meets the toughness in the gap of the WR Kasper and he takes out both. The double pass Moore didn’t even try. Again he knew what was happening. The reverse Shuler was on his guy in man. He got blocked out the stadium while Moore wailed around again. Nobody had any confusion as to their responsibilities. You know who made the tackle on the reverse? Christian Gray ran an his ass off to get there. Played great on Saturday. BYU smacked them around by being tougher than the guy across from them.
Both Moore and Shuler seem to be playing at less than 100% so calling out those two in particular doesn’t necessarily invalidate my question. At least now how I’m reading it in my head.
 

PutuporShutup

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Isn’t this just basic cover 3? Sneed would have the middle hook zone with Bowen, nobody would have the flat. Shuler would have the curl. Sneed is doing what everyone wants to see. He read the play dropped into zone then latched onto a WR. That’s playing zone trusting your eyes and finding work.

Look at Sneed’s eyes at the start of the play and try to tell me he thinks the call is man. Soble is way off.
Not 100% sure on how they ran it but one of shuler/sneed should have the curl/flat. When you have SS, corner, and LB to one side, we always preferred having the LB on the curl/flat and then the SS in the middle so you don't have your LB chasing as much. But watching again, sneed does seem a lot more confident in what he's doing compared to shuler.

If shuler had curl/flat responsibility and didn't fire, and then gave that effort to tackle, he's just insanely unplayable right now.
 
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