Opinions on the 3-4 Defense

[Old Man Mike]

Forced to disagree with most of this thread at least in separate parts of the posts. 21st century defense will be all about speed, flexibility, and disguise. Diaco doesn't have all the speed he needs yet but he is installing the flexibility and disguise. Defense against the service academies is an exception, and Diaco went way outside the box in using Slaughter creatively [a brilliant stratagem] and, although some don't like it, Kelly is correct that that offense WILL stop itself if you just make it grind without long plays.

As to "normal" offenses: we have been almost alternating the looks of our fronts this year. VERY flexible, and tossing an immediate curve to the QB and O-Line. Then, the 3-4 is supposed to strike on passing downs by employing unpredictable 4 man rush packages [or greater] coming from positions not given away until the snap. That's flexibility and disguise. But it takes quite a few reps for the guys to get the timing and flow correct. Diaco, by the way, couldn't get the shifts into the safety quick enough when Air Force "tempo'd" us in the 2nd half, so that Harrison had no time to get everyone on the same page. That is why they invented the bulletin boards.

Diaco knows what defense is all about and once again used the chaotic mill-around pre-snap confusion in a second game this year. He's being quite creative and the results show it. Not stopping USC is hardly going to be a rare event for their opponents now that they've gelled. And our guys did not come ready to give it hell, which is why all the other sociological brouhaha went on the week after.

Diaco's fine. Lucky to have him.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Diaco's fine. Lucky to have him.

One has to wonder if those complaining about Diaco and the 3-4 watched a single ND game between 2006 and 2009. The improvement in our defense has been dramatic since Diaco arrived.

 

[dre1919]

I have no problem with Diaco. I think he's done a good job turning the defense into a solid unit. In most of the "turnover fiesta" games we had this season, the defense was the only good thing. If he could get two corners like Blanton (or better) and a hard nosed safety then this defense would be pretty scary soon. We'll have great QB pressure when guys like Lynch, Nix, Tuitt and Shembo season up.

 

[koonja]

When Kelly came here everyone knew that he was an offensive guy and he didn't mention passing defense, he said he can win as long as his defense focuses on stopping the run. So far that's held true (in games where we don't have mulitple TOs).

 

[North Buffalo Irish]

I see that this is an old thread, but I have to say that the problem with Notre Dame's current 3-4 is the lack of ability in the linebacking corps.

Outside of Te'o, there isn't a standout player out of the entire group. Even Te'o -- who IMO is a little overrated -- doesn't rush the passer, lacks great speed and can't cover anybody. Fleming is a decent player, but he doesn't do anything great. Shembo was a terror as a freshman rushing off the edge on passing downs, but the mental side of his game is still miles behind where it needs to be. He's a liability against the run and in coverage. And the less said about the WILB position (or whatever Diaco calls it) the better: Fox and Calabrese are extremely limited players.

Another problem with the 3-4 with our current set of players is Aaron Lynch's skillset. Now, he will almost certainly grow into a bigger, stronger and stouter run-stuffer. But I see a kid that, if played as a traditional 4-3 defensive end, could set all kinds of sack records at Notre Dame. He is literally unblockable. BUT, he is not at the moment a great fit for a 3-4 DE.

 

[Domer4ever]

I see that this is an old thread, but I have to say that the problem with Notre Dame's current 3-4 is the lack of ability in the linebacking corps.

Outside of Te'o, there isn't a standout player out of the entire group. Even Te'o -- who IMO is a little overrated -- doesn't rush the passer, lacks great speed and can't cover anybody. Fleming is a decent player, but he doesn't do anything great. Shembo was a terror as a freshman rushing off the edge on passing downs, but the mental side of his game is still miles behind where it needs to be. He's a liability against the run and in coverage. And the less said about the WILB position (or whatever Diaco calls it) the better: Fox and Calabrese are extremely limited players.

Another problem with the 3-4 with our current set of players is Aaron Lynch's skillset. Now, he will almost certainly grow into a bigger, stronger and stouter run-stuffer. But I see a kid that, if played as a traditional 4-3 defensive end, could set all kinds of sack records at Notre Dame. He is literally unblockable. BUT, he is not at the moment a great fit for a 3-4 DE.

Yeah I would agree with a lot of what you are saying. Lynch looks like a more traditional strongside DE in a 43 to me. I think the kid is special in any scheme, but to me he could really excell and dominate coming off that edge in a 43 scheme. You also have to like Tuitt playing on the interior in that 43 scheme and controlling things in the middle. He is only going to get bigger and stronger and very well could develope into a Richard Seymour type player for Notre Dame.

Somebody mentioned earlier that this 34 really needs speed LB's to get off the ground and I question where those guys are going to come from. I still think Ishaq looks like a DE and ditto for Niklas. Shembo looks lost in space and is much better just getting after the QB. Fleming is gone after this year, so again, where are these guys going to come from? The loss of David Perkin's commitment does also not help the cause of going with a base 34 defense because he was one of the true speed guys coming in who really fit the scheme IMO.

 

[cody1smith]

Is TE' O going to the nfl in 2012? Lots of mock drafts have him going first round. Cant blame him for leaving but hope it does not happen!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BeauBenken]

Is TE' O going to the nfl in 2012? Lots of mock drafts have him going first round. Cant blame him for leaving but hope it does not happen!!!!!!!!!!

Why did you post this here?

 

[Old Man Mike]

Stream of consciousness apparently---the most prominent characteristic of the Internet. Oh how we teachers love it.....

 

[TerryTate]

Per Poster on II:

We want another OLB for sure (Odenigbo, McCalister and Ekanem among current options there), and would consider a second LB if it were the right one, especially if capable of playing Inside (ie, Ekanem possibly and Miles among options).

Overall, they feel pretty good about their young LB talent and depth across the positions, but need to add as noted and continue developing the current (young) guys. Niklas may stay at OLB (more of a Rush guy in time) or may slide down to DE in time.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

That's encouraging. Also glad to read a knowledgeable source confirming that Niklas will ultimately settle at Cat or DE.

 

[CelticChanter]

Saw a stat somewhere. Can't remember where but it said ND plays almost a split 50/50 between the 3-4 and 4-3. They mix up a lot of looks and have a lot of formations with extra hands on the ground. I think too much is being made of the formation. Get the players here and anything will work.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Saw a stat somewhere. Can't remember where but it said ND plays almost a split 50/50 between the 3-4 and 4-3. They mix up a lot of looks and have a lot of formations with extra hands on the ground. I think too much is being made of the formation. Get the players here and anything will work.

There's a big difference between a 3-4 defense in an even front and a true 4-3. There are also significant differences in the types of athlete one recruits for either system.

I agree that the importance of scheme is frequently exaggerated by laymen, but to imply it doesn't matter at all is inaccurate.

 

[CelticChanter]

There's a big difference between a 3-4 defense in an even front and a true 4-3. There are also significant differences in the types of athlete one recruits for either system.

I agree that the importance of scheme is frequently exaggerated by laymen, but to imply it doesn't matter at all is inaccurate.

I never said it doesn't matter.

I simply said too much is being made of it considering that ND spends a lot of time in a hybrid 4-3 look anyways on top of the fact that if Kelly and Diaco keep recruiting on the defensive side of the ball like they have been ND could play any formation and be fine...trying to paint the broader picture that this entire thing is being WAY over analyzed. In my experience discussung this most people who are against a 3-4 are sayign so because of some preconceived notion against it and not really basing it on what is actually occuring in South Bend with the defensive turn around.

I think the fan base is just complaing ot hear their head rattle on this one and there are other mroe important issues to look into.

 

[Patulski]

In the 43 you have a pretty much guaranteed idea where 4 men are coming from.

No you don't

In 4-3 zone blitzes I've seen tackles dropped into coverage, defensive ends dropped in coverage, both dropped in coverage (with a safety and LB blitzing" etc. etc. etc.

 

[Domer4ever]

I never said it doesn't matter.

I simply said too much is being made of it considering that ND spends a lot of time in a hybrid 4-3 look anyways on top of the fact that if Kelly and Diaco keep recruiting on the defensive side of the ball like they have been ND could play any formation and be fine...trying to paint the broader picture that this entire thing is being WAY over analyzed. In my experience discussung this most people who are against a 3-4 are sayign so because of some preconceived notion against it and not really basing it on what is actually occuring in South Bend with the defensive turn around.

I think the fan base is just complaing ot hear their head rattle on this one and there are other mroe important issues to look into.

I dont know about any preconceived notions, but I think it's fairly obvious that the personel defensively is better suited now and probably in the future to run a 43 scheme on a more regular basis as opposed to a 34.

I watched this 34 scheme get absolutely manhandled in the running game by the USC offensive line with not enough beef up front and offensive lineman getting on the LB's. They improved when they went with a 43 just before halftime. I have also watched this 34 scheme have a difficult time getting after opposing QB's the last couple years.

To me it's real simple, the strength of the defense is the defensive line as opposed to a marginal LB core that struggles in coverage and in space. Tuitt and Nix are absolute young studs in the middle, Lynch is a special talent at DE, and there is certainly a lot to like about Ishaq, Niklas, and some of the other young guys that could easily slide in at the other DE spot oppsite Lynch. You could even put Ethan Johnson in at DE on running downs and go with Ishaq, Flemming, or Shembo as designated pass rushers on passing downs. By going with a 43 you are putting more of these really good lineman on the field, keeping less bodies off the LB's, and getting more pressure on QB's.