Opinions on the 3-4 Defense

[Domer4ever]

Just wanted to get some opinions on the 3-4 defense that the Irish run. I personally am not a big fan of it.

Tonight the Irish were getting absolutely hammered on the ground against USC and did not even start competing until they went to more of a true four man defensive line. I am wondering if the Irish would not be better off scratching the 34 front and going with a more traditional 43 front considering the talent on the defensive line and the commitments they have coming in next season. I think it puts more of your better players on the field and probably provide you with a better chance to get after the QB with more of the better pass rushers getting on the field. Notre Dame has not done a good enough job getting after the other teams QB's this year. Why not go with something like this along the defensive line?

RDE- Lynch, Hounshell
DT- Tuitt, KLM
NT- Nix, Cwynar
LDE- Fleming, Ishaq Williams

OLB- Shembo, Niklas
MLB- Teo, Calabrese
OLB- Fox, Spond

Then next season you are looking at guys like Jaron Jones and Sheldon Day coming in. I just think when you have elite talent along the defensive line like Notre Dame does, I want as many of those guys on the field as possible.

What are your thoughts on the 34 scheme the Irish run?

 

[DomerInHappyValley]

The 34 run correctly is a great defense. The problem with it is the OLB have to have speed to fill gaps.

 

[pkt77242]

Just wanted to get some opinions on the 3-4 defense that the Irish run. I personally am not a big fan of it.

Tonight the Irish were getting absolutely hammered on the ground against USC and did not even start competing until they went to more of a true four man defensive line. I am wondering if the Irish would not be better off scratching the 34 front and going with a more traditional 43 front considering the talent on the defensive line and the commitments they have coming in next season. I think it puts more of your better players on the field and probably provide you with a better chance to get after the QB with more of the better pass rushers getting on the field. Notre Dame has not done a good enough job getting after the other teams QB's this year. Why not go with something like this along the defensive line?

RDE- Lynch, Hounshell
DT- Tuitt, KLM
NT- Nix, Cwynar
LDE- Fleming, Ishaq Williams

OLB- Shembo, Niklas
MLB- Teo, Calabrese
OLB- Fox, Spond

Then next season you are looking at guys like Jaron Jones and Sheldon Day coming in. I just think when you have elite talent along the defensive line like Notre Dame does, I want as many of those guys on the field as possible.

What are your thoughts on the 34 scheme the Irish run?

Um, by your post we would have the same 7 people on the field for our front seven (why is KLM a back up and Tuitt and Lynch are starting?) so how would changing from a 3 man front to a 4 man front matter? the front 7 would still be the same or maybe I have just drank too much tonight.

 

[Veer option]

This hangover is going to be a bear tomorrow....

 

[Domer4ever]

The 34 run correctly is a great defense. The problem with it is the OLB have to have speed to fill gaps.

I guess I have always thought of it as kind of a tricky type defense that can mask defeciencies by allowing a team to bring pressure from different angles making the LB's the stars of the defense. I think Notre Dame's strength is along the defensive line and not the LB positions, and I think this becomes even more true next season with guys like Day and Jones. There is no need to get tricky if your defensive line has the talent to whip the man across from them like ND's guys should.

 

[pkt77242]

I guess I have always thought of it as kind of a tricky type defense that can mask defeciencies by allowing a team to bring pressure from different angles making the LB's the stars of the defense. I think Notre Dame's strength is along the defensive line and not the LB positions, and I think this becomes even more true next season with guys like Day and Jones. There is no need to get tricky if your defensive line has the talent to whip the man across from them like ND's guys should.

But in your srating line up all you did was move a DE down to DT and put an OLB as DE. How does that get more of our talented DL on the field. You would have been better off saying.

DE KLM
DT Nix
DT EJ
DE Lynch/Tuitt
OLB Fleming
MLB Manti
OLB Shembo/Fox/anyone who can freakin tackle

 

[4irishnation]

I want to see some played myself

 

[Domer4ever]

Um, by your post we would have the same 7 people on the field for our front seven (why is KLM a back up and Tuitt and Lynch are starting?) so how would changing from a 3 man front to a 4 man front matter? the front 7 would still be the same or maybe I have just drank too much tonight.

I think in a four man front Lynch and Tuitt would be better pass rushers than Kap would, but who knows for sure? All I know is I think the talent along the defensive line is better than at linebacker and I would like to see more of them on the field in a 43 scheme because (in my opinion) it fits the talent better.

 

[DomerInHappyValley]

Call it a tricky defense if you want but every defensive play is designed to mask your coverage and where the pressure is coming from.
In the 43 you have a pretty much guaranteed idea where 4 men are coming from.
In the 34 with the right OLB's and right DE's the only one you know is NT because a speedy OLB can rush while a speedy DE can drop into coverage.
Go watch the Steelers Ravens or GB run the 34 and you will often times see an OLB up on the line showing a 4 man front look.
The Steelers and Ravens also have the advantage of having damn good safeties that you have to account for.

 

[Domer4ever]

But in your srating line up all you did was move a DE down to DT and put an OLB as DE. How does that get more of our talented DL on the field. You would have been better off saying.

DE KLM
DT Nix
DT EJ
DE Lynch/Tuitt
OLB Fleming
MLB Manti
OLB Shembo/Fox/anyone who can freakin tackle

That would work too. Again, I just think the talent is better along the defensive line and there should be more of those guys on the field and less project OLB's trying to figure things out.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I wouldn't try to draw any serious conclusions about the 3-4 based on the USC game. It's good at (1) stopping the pro-style run; and (2) disguising pressures. It's generally bad at (1) stopping the spread; and (2) defending quick passes on the edges.

Disguising pressures isn't optional if you want to win football games. If we ran a 4-3, we'd have to do with it Zone Blitzes and dropping DL into coverage.

 

[Domer4ever]

Call it a tricky defense if you want but every defensive play is designed to mask your coverage and where the pressure is coming from.
In the 43 you have a pretty much guaranteed idea where 4 men are coming from.
In the 34 with the right OLB's and right DE's the only one you know is NT because a speedy OLB can rush while a speedy DE can drop into coverage.
Go watch the Steelers Ravens or GB run the 34 and you will often times see an OLB up on the line showing a 4 man front look.
The Steelers and Ravens also have the advantage of having damn good safeties that you have to account for.

I hear you. There are a lot of NFL teams who run it extremely well, but how many programs outside of Alabama run a top notch college 34 scheme? I cant think of too many and I think the reason for that is you are dealing with younger developing players and there is a lot of complexity with that type of scheme from coverages, gap responsabilities and so forth. I think you also have to recruit elite specialty type players to run it.

Notre Dame is finally landing elite, top notch defensive line talent that in my opinion is being wasted to a certain extent trying to be space eaters for the LB's to make plays instead of just lining up and using that elite talent to whip the man across from them.

 

[t3hjc]

I don't have a problem with the 3-4 defense, I have a problem with how vanilla we play. We never seem to be a threat to force turnovers.

 

[DomerInHappyValley]

I hear you. There are a lot of NFL teams who run it extremely well, but how many programs outside of Alabama run a top notch college 34 scheme? I cant think of too many and I think the reason for that is you are dealing with younger developing players and there is a lot of complexity with that type of scheme from coverages, gap responsabilities and so forth. I think you also have to recruit elite specialty type players to run it.

Notre Dame is finally landing elite, top notch defensive line talent that in my opinion is being wasted to a certain extent trying to be space eaters for the LB's to make plays instead of just lining up and using that elite talent to whip the man across from them.

As of 2010 UGA GT Houston ND Stanford aTm Texas Tech Bama the academies BYU Cal SMU run a 34. Most up to date info I could find.
It's not complex in my opinion it's a defense that relies on speed.
You need to have speed at every position but NT.
Your NT needs to be able to take on 2 or more blockers to open the gaps so your LB can key on the RB's
Look at it this way
The talent we have recruited for the DL is gonna force opposing offenses to choose to allow those DL to be blocked by a single player or double every player allowing the LB corps to crash down and fill gaps. No gaps no running lanes.
It's unfortunate the Filer proved it tonight we don't have the speed on the edges to play it properly which is why Williams was moved to OLB.
If you have great DB's like Bama has now you can put those guys on an island and start playing games with the safeties as well. And who are our top recruits for this class?
In 2 years this defense will be running full speed and we'll be having greatest ND defense ever discussions.
Besides if you play with your hand in the dirt you understand that you don't get the credit from fans but your team mates understand what you are doing.

 

[Domer4ever]

I don't have a problem with the 3-4 defense, I have a problem with how vanilla we play. We never seem to be a threat to force turnovers.

I agree with your last comment. I think playing a 4-3 would generate a better pass rush because it would put the better pass rushers on the field, and in turn would hopefully cause more tunrovers.

Frankly I would rather see a guy like Ishaq with his hand in the dirt getting after the QB from a defensive end position then watch our OLB's flail around on the outside losing contain while not generating any pressure.

 

[Veer option]

Frankly I would rather see a guy like Ishaq with his hand in the dirt getting after the QB from a defensive end position then watch our OLB's flail around on the outside losing contain while not generating any pressure.

Perhaps its the booze talking but Ishaq has done absolutely zero this season whilst playing, I dont see how playing him over other players who seem to grasp the concept of the 3-4 would help the defense at all.


Well, perhaps he did his job in the MSU game in helping Blanton get the INT but all other games I have yet to see him make any meaningful impact. To me he seems like a coaching project. Meaning he is a year or two away from being a real defensive weapon.

 

[Domer4ever]

As of 2010 UGA GT Houston ND Stanford aTm Texas Tech Bama the academies BYU Cal SMU run a 34. Most up to date info I could find.
It's not complex in my opinion it's a defense that relies on speed.
You need to have speed at every position but NT.
Your NT needs to be able to take on 2 or more blockers to open the gaps so your LB can key on the RB's
Look at it this way
The talent we have recruited for the DL is gonna force opposing offenses to choose to allow those DL to be blocked by a single player or double every player allowing the LB corps to crash down and fill gaps. No gaps no running lanes.
It's unfortunate the Filer proved it tonight we don't have the speed on the edges to play it properly which is why Williams was moved to OLB.
If you have great DB's like Bama has now you can put those guys on an island and start playing games with the safeties as well. And who are our top recruits for this class?
In 2 years this defense will be running full speed and we'll be having greatest ND defense ever discussions.
Besides if you play with your hand in the dirt you understand that you don't get the credit from fans but your team mates understand what you are doing.

So basically 4 of the top 25 teams in the country run a 34 scheme.

It's a great scheme in theory, but right now the defensive line talent on Notre Dame is far greater then the LB talent and its probably going to stay that way next year with guys like Day and Jarron Jones being added into the mix. I would also contend that a guy like Teo would be even better with more big defensive lineman in front of him allowing him to roam more freely to the ball. I think there is too much space in that 34 right now and we are seeing a lot of blockers getting to that second level and getting on Teo this season. Combine that with the minimal impact from the OLB's all season and it's almost like Diaco is trying to ram a round peg into a square hole instead of taking advantage of the talent pool he has along the defensive line.

 

[Who'saWildManNow]

I've noticed a few patterns..

Carlo is awful in pass coverage.

Anyone that gets near the QB rarely takes him down.

I continue to scream Shembos name while my face turns Kelly red.

Offensive play calling gets desperate, real fast.

As tough as it is to say.. Kiffin had Diaco in his back pocket all night.

This 3-4 needs more athletic CAT n DOG LBs.. They coukd be Niklas and Ishaq.. but will the development and coaching be there?

 

[Domer4ever]

Perhaps its the booze talking but Ishaq has done absolutely zero this season whilst playing, I dont see how playing him over other players who seem to grasp the concept of the 3-4 would help the defense at all.


Well, perhaps he did his job in the MSU game in helping Blanton get the INT but all other games I have yet to see him make any meaningful impact. To me he seems like a coaching project. Meaning he is a year or two away from being a real defensive weapon.

He is a project because he is transitioning from DE to OLB to fit into the 34 scheme. To me, he is a natural pass rusher that very well could be the best guy on the roster at getting after the QB. He doesn't play because he is having to learn coverage scheme's and so forth which is a steep learning curve. If they moved to a 43, he plays DE and it gives him much more opportunity to do what he does best.

 

[DomerInHappyValley]

So basically 4 of the top 25 teams in the country run a 34 scheme.

It's a great scheme in theory, but right now the defensive line talent on Notre Dame is far greater then the LB talent and its probably going to stay that way next year with guys like Day and Jarron Jones being added into the mix. I would also contend that a guy like Teo would be even better with more big defensive lineman in front of him allowing him to roam more freely to the ball. I think there is too much space in that 34 right now and we are seeing a lot of blockers getting to that second level and getting on Teo this season. Combine that with the minimal impact from the OLB's all season and it's almost like Diaco is trying to ram a round peg into a square hole instead of taking advantage of the talent pool he has along the defensive line.

The talent may be there but the experience isn't. The 43 requires a lot of discipline Teo would not be allowed to roam to the ball because he has to maintain his assignment of locking down the middle of the field.
The 43 also has a tendency to get eaten up on sweep plays.
The problems you are seeing in this defense fall back onto not having enough speed on the edges and a sub par secondary forcing the defense to play a lot of zone coverage.

He is a project because he is transitioning from DE to OLB to fit into the 34 scheme. To me, he is a natural pass rusher that very well could be the best guy on the roster at getting after the QB. He doesn't play because he is having to learn coverage scheme's and so forth which is a steep learning curve. If they moved to a 43, he plays DE and it gives him much more opportunity to do what he does best.

It's not always about getting after the passer. There are 5 other guys on the field he can get the ball to. Want to do nothing but pass rush you'll get destroyed by the draw and screen pass.

 

[Domer4ever]

The talent may be there but the experience isn't. The 43 requires a lot of discipline Teo would not be allowed to roam to the ball because he has to maintain his assignment of locking down the middle of the field.
The 43 also has a tendency to get eaten up on sweep plays.
The problems you are seeing in this defense fall back onto not having enough speed on the edges and a sub par secondary forcing the defense to play a lot of zone coverage.

I would venture to guess most of these guys came from a 43 scheme in high school, so playing in a 43 would probably be more natural for them then trying to adjust to the individual responsibilities of the 34 scheme. So the experience aspect could be a bit over rated.

As far as Teo, I think with more big body's in front of him ala Nix, Tuitt, Johnson, Cwynar, etc., those guys are going to take up more blockers which in theory should allow him to flow more freely to the football. The 43 could be more susceptible to sweeps, but the 34 is more susceptible to power running football up the middle like what we saw tonight with the offenisve line easily handling the 3 man front and getting to the LB's at the second level. I would personally take my chances against the occasional sweep then being ripped straight up the gut.

 

[Domer4ever]

It's not always about getting after the passer. There are 5 other guys on the field he can get the ball to. Want to do nothing but pass rush you'll get destroyed by the draw and screen pass.

When you have a subpar secondary, I think it is about getting after the passer as much as possible instead of letting a QB sit clean in the pocket and pick that subpar secondary apart.

 

[irishff1014]

The talent may be there but the experience isn't. The 43 requires a lot of discipline Teo would not be allowed to roam to the ball because he has to maintain his assignment of locking down the middle of the field.
The 43 also has a tendency to get eaten up on sweep plays.The problems you are seeing in this defense fall back onto not having enough speed on the edges and a sub par secondary forcing the defense to play a lot of zone coverage.


It's not always about getting after the passer. There are 5 other guys on the field he can get the ball to. Want to do nothing but pass rush you'll get destroyed by the draw and screen pass.

They ran right at us and we couldn't stop them so who cares about a sweep.

 

[Domer4ever]

They ran right at us and we couldn't stop them so who cares about a sweep.

I agree. This 34 scheme is susceptible to power running football. It worked against Michigan State, but was trampled by USC and I suspect we will see the same against Stanford. Just too many gaps in the defensive front that places a ton responsibility on the LB's which I dont see as being up to the challenge. When the strength is the defensive line core it would seem to be an easy fix to put more of those guys on the field in a 43.

Again, I think Kelly and Diaco brought this scheme with them from Cincy where they had inferior talent and had to get cute to get pressure on the QB. They dont have to do that at Notre Dame, and right now the scheme does not seem to be a match for the personel and talent they have defensively.

 

[irishff1014]

We are going to need the run defense step up against Navy. This game worries me until it is over. I don't have alot of trust in our D against them.

 

[Domer4ever]

They looked much better today going with a regular 4 man front. Granted it was Navy, but Tuitt and Nix really controlled the middle and Manti looked much better flowing to the football today with those big boys in front of him.

Not sure if this is something they did strategically to defend the triple option or if they finally just realized that the 43 fits their personel better and allows them to get after an opposing offense better from a pass rushing and run stopping standpoint.

 

[MantiFan]

Historically, how long has ND run the 34?

 

[BeauBenken]

Historically, how long has ND run the 34?

We ran it under Weis/Tenuta for (I think) 2 years before reverting back to the 4-3, and we've run it the entire time under BK/Diaco.

I'm not the oldest on here though so anyone feel free to correct me or add.

 

[DomerInHappyValley]

It's generally accepted that the 34 was created in the 40's by Wilkinson at Oklahoma.
As far as the D goes I think it's gonna become a hybrid D more than a traditional 34 or 43.

 

[dre1919]

I've never been a fan of the 3-4. I think it's an over hyped, and under performing creation mostly famous for working (with varying results) in the pros. The problem I find with it is that you're trading some much needed beef on the front line for (supposedly) more speed and flexibility in certain defensive situations with a linebacker. Well, first off, for the 3-4 to be effective at all you have to have really dominant linebackers. Plus, you need strong sown linemen and very good cover corners and aware safeties. Since you'll be surrendering some size and strength at the point of attack on run defense, you have to make sure your front seven aren't getting abused in the run game. This means the linebackers probably helping out in run defense more and the corners playing with less help over the middle. If the linebackers help out in pass coverage, like on a TE, HB, FB or slot receiver, it leaves them a little underpowered against the run.

So, I guess as with all things, it's a measure of risk versus reward. Do you want the size and strength (space eating) that comes from larger down linemen (four of them). Or, do you want the speed and flexibility of a linebacker? Since football is trending toward more pass happy (especially in the usage of the TE as a receiver first, blocker second), one can definitely see why the 3-4 has become popular. I think I prefer some of the more unusual defensive sets, like the 1-5-5, 2-4-5 and the 3-3-5 if you're trying to maximize speed and flexibility more so than a traditional 3-4.