Stirring the pot on Sunday morning....

[BeatSC]

No. They do not redshirt. Each player is expected to graduate in 4 years or less. What they do is hold a player out to reserve a year of eligibility, but not based on their academic class standing. When it comes time for a 5th year, they must apply to stay with the team and be a part of some type of post graduate program. It is not a guarantee that you remain with the team in the fifth year. It has to be earned.

can a player sit out for a year and gain a 5th year of eligibility? Yes. Techncally not a red shirt but if KElly and the player both want it ND will get it. Same net affect.

Couple of Rees observations that I did not catch in this thread:

- 80 yards total offense in the second half (I would say that is less than productive)
- 17 tunrnovers in 7 games and 17 touchdown passes
- No rushing TD's
- No rushing yards
- No threat of rushing
- average at best at extending the play
- He throws some good slant pattern passes
- Next game we lose where he has or more tunrovers he will be replaced
- I can't see ND moving forward with a QB with his limitations
- We have too many weapons and we need a QB with a run/scramble threat. Even
Dayne can take off and make a play with his legs.
- I remember Dayne looking good against UM, Mich St and BC last year.

Do you really think if we had stayed te course with we couldn't put up 31+ against UM or 24+ against Mich St.?

I do like Tommy's ability to run the Offense at the line of scrimmage but I think Dayne can do the same. He made one big mistake (not as big as Tommy whiffing with the ball) in the USF game otherwise he did not deserve to see the bench so fast. I think we'll see Dayne again one way or theother this season and once he gets another chance he will finish off the season. If we keep winning and Tommy can keep his TO's to or less per game Kelly will tolerate him because of he W's. As far back as I can remember ND has had a NFL caliber QB and Rees is not that guy. Just look at his numbers. I am more than happy for him to make me look like an idiot going forward I just think we're laying the least capable player at that position.

Think about it.

 

[kmoose]

can a player sit out for a year and gain a 5th year of eligibility? Yes. Techncally not a red shirt but if KElly and the player both want it ND will get it. Same net affect.

I think the important difference is that, if you sit a kid out as a freshman to save a year of eligibility, it's a bit of a crapshoot. If the kid is one class short of graduating, after 4 years, then you gained nothing by sitting him out as a freshman.

 

[koonja]

I don't think we'll see Crist, but I wouldn't complain if BK came out and named him the starter again (which won't happen). He takes care of the ball (at least compared to Rees). I've said this a thousand times, with Tommy's guaranteed 2-3 TOs a game, the rest of the team needs to play flawless in order to beat good (not great) teams.

Crist had one bad half in the first game of the season. Tommy has at least one bad half each game.

 

[BeatSC]

Crist had one bad half in the first game of the season. Tommy has at least one bad half each game.

Well said, The second half of the MSU game was very lackluster. With Rees in there we have limited playcalling options. He is makinf a living on passes behind the line of scrimmage or in front of the first down marker. Also his Ints have not been bad luck tip passes or great D plays they are just stupid decisions and poorly thrown balls. The one thing I do like about hims is his short passing accuracy and timing (quick decisions). This is not enough to start at QB at ND with all hese weapons around him. DC is a 5 star and deserves a second chance. Football IQ is no replacement for talent (Denard Robinson). Nobody is game planning for Tommy Reese. I honesty would like to see any of the other 3 guys we have given a chance.

 

[pkt77242]

Well said, The second half of the MSU game was very lackluster. With Rees in there we have limited playcalling options. He is makinf a living on passes behind the line of scrimmage or in front of the first down marker. Also his Ints have not been bad luck tip passes or great D plays they are just stupid decisions and poorly thrown balls. The one thing I do like about hims is his short passing accuracy and timing (quick decisions). This is not enough to start at QB at ND with all hese weapons around him. DC is a 5 star and deserves a second chance. Football IQ is no replacement for talent (Denard Robinson). Nobody is game planning for Tommy Reese. I honesty would like to see any of the other 3 guys we have given a chance.

Some yes, but he had one against USF that hit a reciever (Jones) in the helmet and was then picked and against Michigan Kelly said on one of the picks the receiver ran the wrong route.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

Well said, The second half of the MSU game was very lackluster. With Rees in there we have limited playcalling options. He is makinf a living on passes behind the line of scrimmage or in front of the first down marker. Also his Ints have not been bad luck tip passes or great D plays they are just stupid decisions and poorly thrown balls. The one thing I do like about hims is his short passing accuracy and timing (quick decisions). This is not enough to start at QB at ND with all hese weapons around him. DC is a 5 star and deserves a second chance. Football IQ is no replacement for talent (Denard Robinson). Nobody is game planning for Tommy Reese. I honesty would like to see any of the other 3 guys we have given a chance.

They do during practice, and there is a reason why Hendrix has not been contending to play.

Dayne's career was ruined by injuries, and a coaching change. Tommy makes his living on passes behind the line of scrimmage, and in front of the first down? Are you judging by one game? Tommy's accuracy within 40 yards is better then Dayne's, Dayne has a strong arm, but can't put the ball anywhere near the reciever, and always throws to his safety outlet. Plus, he just does not understand the offense.

Dayne is awesome when hes on a roll, and playing great, but when he makes a mistake he implodes. Dayne, barring injury to Tommy, is done playing for ND. Tommy will get better, and better each week. His knowledge for the game is his biggest asset. And, in the case of Tommy vs. Dayne, knowledge weighs a lot more then physical ability. Denard is a freak, and one of the few talents that can perform on that level.

 

[Grahambo]

I personally don't think we have seen the end of Dayne Crist. The problem with Crist is mental unlike Rees who is limited physically. DC always seems to be in a hurry during a play and tends to rush things. I like Rees a lot but he is still young so it's tough taking the bumps along the way. To be fair, DC has as much experience running the BK offense as Rees does and I think DC deserves another shot.

In the end though, the only thing that matters is winning.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

Well said, The second half of the MSU game was very lackluster. With Rees in there we have limited playcalling options. He is makinf a living on passes behind the line of scrimmage or in front of the first down marker. Also his Ints have not been bad luck tip passes or great D plays they are just stupid decisions and poorly thrown balls. The one thing I do like about hims is his short passing accuracy and timing (quick decisions). This is not enough to start at QB at ND with all hese weapons around him. DC is a 5 star and deserves a second chance. Football IQ is no replacement for talent (Denard Robinson). Nobody is game planning for Tommy Reese. I honesty would like to see any of the other 3 guys we have given a chance.

I'd also make the argument that our playbook is handicapped more by Dayne then Rees. Rees isn't running the water downed simple offense he ran last year, he can do a ton more then Dayne because he understands what he's doing, and understands what the defense is doing.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

I personally don't think we have seen the end of Dayne Crist. The problem with Crist is mental unlike Rees who is limited physically. DC always seems to be in a hurry during a play and tends to rush things. I like Rees a lot but he is still young so it's tough taking the bumps along the way.

In the end though, the only thing that matters is winning.

I really don't understand how people say Rees limits our game because he's physically inferior. No, he can't throw the ball 75 yards. No, he can't run a 4.4 40. How many NFL QB's can throw the ball 75-80 yards? Not many. He can hit every pass needed to win. He's gained like 15 lbs of muscle since last year, and does not look like a child. His arm strength is a lot stronger then last years.

To be fair, DC has as much experience running the BK offense as Rees does and I think DC deserves another shot.
DC can't run the offense better then Tommy, no shot. Dayne has a lot of trouble reading coverages, and seeing the field. That's why its 3rd and 12 and Dayne throws the 5 yard out route to the safety option.

 

[kmoose]

What's funny about the whole QB debate is:

People who are calling for Hendrix or Golson are confident in Kelly's ability to develop them, and get them ready to play against what is, at least, a difficult schedule. Yet, apparently, these same people have NO trust in Kelly, to choose a starter. If the guy is that good at developing QBs, then it stands to reason that he knows a little bit about the position, and how to evaluate/coach it. But they seem to think that this guy who is so knowledgeable about the position is wrong in assessing that Tommy Rees is the best option to start at the position.

Does this seem crazy to anyone else?

 

[BeatSC]

I really don't understand how people say Rees limits our game because he's physically inferior. No, he can't throw the ball 75 yards. No, he can't run a 4.4 40. How many NFL QB's can throw the ball 75-80 yards? Not many. He can hit every pass needed to win. He's gained like 15 lbs of muscle since last year, and does not look like a child. His arm strength is a lot stronger then last years.

To be fair, DC has as much experience running the BK offense as Rees does and I think DC deserves another shot.
DC can't run the offense better then Tommy, no shot. Dayne has a lot of trouble reading coverages, and seeing the field. That's why its 3rd and 12 and Dayne throws the 5 yard out route to the safety option.

Until he can take off and get a first down with his legs or execute the run option and score 4 TD's in 6 games we will be running a very truncated and less effective version of Kelly's offense. Tis would also open up the passing and running game. We are not going to see Reease playing QB for this team the next 3 years. No way.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

For me here is my following wish list. Tis may not lead to an improvement but the "Status Quo" is not making the grade IMO.

- New Punter hands are tied-
-New Punt Returner (How about Toma, Harrison Smith, Blanton, Michael Floyd) No to all your suggestions IMO
- Different starting QB with expanded offense to truly include a QB run option threat. Be careful what you wish for
- Start Lynch Whole-heartedly agree. Defense just looks more amped when he's out there
- Don't start Niklas or Fox again Yes to Niklas not being ready, no to Fox not starting.
- More Nix whenever possible Agree
- More blitzing when Lycnh is in and more stunting Agree
- Get more creative in the run game especially in the second half when everyone has figured it out. Agree. Take it outside more
- Try the lepracat, maybe even use Goodman since he can throw the ball. Maybe once in a salted away game to see what happens
- Develop a FB on the team for short yardage or get a dual threat QB in there. Jonas is pretty much a fullback with RB speed
- New ND logo on the home jerseys (looks too muddled) Pretty fair
- Back in the day 70/80/90's the ND pants had a shiny front to them. I like the current pants
- What would a home throw back jersye look like? Green with yellow numbers ala Joe

Tommy's done OK but he is not a BCS bowl caliber QB. Dayne needs another chance as his upside is greater and he has flashed it in last years UM, Mich St. and BC games. IF we need our offense to produce and we don't shut it down like we did in the second half of the Mich st game then Tommy will continue to throw 2 Ints a game.

I would like to see Dayne get another shot, but Rees has done everything any other guy would do and more. Hopefully we smoke the crap out of sPitt so Dayne can at least get some reps in.

 

[pkt77242]

Until he can take off and get a first down with his legs or execute the run option and score 4 TD's in 6 games we will be running a very truncated and less effective version of Kelly's offense. Tis would also open up the passing and running game. We are not going to see Reease playing QB for this team the next 3 years. No way.

Oddly enough, Tony Pike couldn't run to save his life but Kelly had no problem starting him at Cinci. In fact Tony Pike makes Rees look mobile.

 

[BeatSC]

Oddly enough, Tony Pike couldn't run to save his life but Kelly had no problem starting him at Cinci. In fact Tony Pike makes Rees look mobile.

Don't know the stat but I'm guessing Pike's stats regardin TD to TO's were a little better than Tommy's. If Tommy has one TO per game I wouldn't even comment on this but it's hard to look at 17 turnovers in 7 games with 17 TD's with no rushing yards or TD's. IF he had a 75% completion % maybe but his completion % is in nte low 60's aided by a lot of dinking and dunking. Not to mention great receivers and good pass blocking.

 

[pkt77242]

Don't know the stat but I'm guessing Pike's stats regardin TD to TO's were a little better than Tommy's. If Tommy has one TO per game I wouldn't even comment on this but it's hard to look at 17 turnovers in 7 games with 17 TD's with no rushing yards or TD's. IF he had a 75% completion % maybe but his completion % is in nte low 60's aided by a lot of dinking and dunking. Not to mention great receivers and good pass blocking.

The 17 turnovers are in more than 7 games. 10 last year included 6 games (Michigan, Tulsa, Utah, Army, USC, Miami) and 7 this year includes, USF, Michigan, and MSU. So that would be 17 in 9 games. 3 of which he was never supposed to see the field and so had almost no preperation (Michigan, Tulsa and USF).

So in his 6 starts he has 9 ints, and 1 fumble? Did he have any fumbles last year (honest question as I haven't been able to find any stats on it)? Not great but not near as bad as you are making it out to be.

 

[kmoose]

Don't know the stat but I'm guessing Pike's stats regardin TD to TO's were a little better than Tommy's. If Tommy has one TO per game I wouldn't even comment on this but it's hard to look at 17 turnovers in 7 games with 17 TD's with no rushing yards or TD's. IF he had a 75% completion % maybe but his completion % is in nte low 60's aided by a lot of dinking and dunking. Not to mention great receivers and good pass blocking.

Tommy Rees' completion percentage = 69.7%. I have no idea where you got this "low 60's" from...........but it's just flat out wrong.

 

[BeatSC]

Tommy Rees' completion percentage = 69.7%. I have no idea where you got this "low 60's" from...........but it's just flat out wrong.

Not yesterday or this year in his 7 + games. How about 17 TO's in 7 games. Is that good enough at ND? Would you be upset if Kelly announced that Dayne was getting anoter chance this week because our offense stalled in the second half (80 yards)?

 

[pkt77242]

Not yesterday or this year in his 7 + games. How about 17 TO's in 7 games. Is that good enough at ND? Would you be upset if Kelly announced that Dayne was getting anoter chance this week because our offense stalled in the second half (80 yards)?

The 17 TO's in 7 games is false. Please stop typing it. it is 17 TO's in 9 games. Get your facts straight. You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

PS I am struggling getting exact amount of fumbles on Rees from last year, so I could possible be wrong, but if you are using the stats that I am using, then

 

[BeatSC]

The 17 TO's in 7 games is false. Please stop typing it. it is 17 TO's in 9 games. Get your facts straight. You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

I stand corrected but I would say 9 different games but 8 games of equivalent quarters. I think Dayne would have about the same game time with 10 TO's I believe with 15 pass TD's and 4 rushing. Not impressed by either QB's statistics but Reese did have more time (not alot but enough) in the system to get comfortable with it. Crist is just older but with less Spread exeprience which shows at times in is slower decision making. I just think his first drives of the USF game were very dynamic and then the voodoo set in on ND and really hasn't left yet. No team has been this unlucky in CFB in 20 years IMO.

 

[pkt77242]

I stand corrected but I would say 9 different games but 8 games of equivalent quarters. I think Dayne would have about the same game time with 10 TO's I believe with 15 pass TD's and 4 rushing. Not impressed by either QB's statistics but Reese did have more time (not alot but enough) in the system to get comfortable with it. Crist is just older but with less Spread exeprience which shows at times in is slower decision making. I just think his first drives of the USF game were very dynamic and then the voodoo set in on ND and really hasn't left yet. No team has been this unlucky in CFB in 20 years IMO.

Sorry, I ddin't mean to come off as a jackass. I think Crist would have less turnovers but I don't think he moves the team as well.

I mostly agree with this post of yours. Rees, makes better reads presnap and makes quicker decisions on where to throw.

 

[Kak7304]

Tommy gives us the best chance to win right now (although he really needs to cut down on his mistakes). Dayne isn't nearly as prone to turnovers, but he also doesn't really make many plays. While I agree that Hendrix and Golson both have a higher ceiling, more physical talent, and can expand the O with their running ability, Kelly has stated they do not have enough knowledge and experience with the offense. There's much more to playing QB than handing off, throwing, or running. They simply aren't at a level yet to recognize defensive schemes, make audibles, or have the knowledge to operate the full offense. This is the same stupid debate we had a few years back when people wanted Crist to start over Clausen because he had the stronger arm and better physical tools.

 

[kmoose]

ANot yesterday orB this year in his C7 + games.D How about 17 TO's in 7 games. Is that good enough at ND? Would you be upset if Kelly announced that Dayne was getting anoter chance this week because our offense stalled in the second half (80 yards)?

Since your response is all over the place, I'll try to break it down into sections:

A) Tommy Rees' completion percentage yesterday was 69.2%.

B) Tommy Rees' completion percentage for this year is 69.7%.

C) Tommy Rees' career completion percentage is 64.3%.

These stats are pretty readily available on the internet, so I'm having a hard time believing that you would argue them, without looking them up first. If you DID look them up first, then you are simply trying to lie to win a debate.

D) Again, I have to wonder how long some people have been watching college football, and how much they have paying attention to the game: Underclassmen who start at QB have ALWAYS had a high number of turnovers!! Water is wet, women are crazy, and Freshman/Sophomore QBs throw a lot of picks! These are not debatable, so don't even try!

I would not be upset if Kelly announced that Crist was going to start, due to the offense stalling in the second half. I would think he was off of his rocker!! The offense stalled just as bad, in the second quarter of USF, with Dayne at the helm. Why do you think he got benched in the first place?

 

[tommyIRISH23]

Sorry, I ddin't mean to come off as a jackass. I think Crist would have less turnovers but I don't think he moves the team as well.

Agree. Crist would have less turnovers, but wouldn't be able to get us out of our side of the 50. With Crist we would be 0-3, and looking like a team that is lost/confused on offense, and the defense would look terrible because they'd be on the field 70% of the game.

Crist physical abilities become moot because he can't run the offense. Also, I am not sold on how mobile he, 2 knee surgeries definitely limit his 40 time.

Whoever said Dayne deserves a chance because he is a 5 star recruit needs to look at the calender, it's not 2008...it's 2011.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

Since your response is all over the place, I'll try to break it down into sections:

A) Tommy Rees' completion percentage yesterday was 69.2%.

B) Tommy Rees' completion percentage for this year is 69.7%.

C) Tommy Rees' career completion percentage is 64.3%.

These stats are pretty readily available on the internet, so I'm having a hard time believing that you would argue them, without looking them up first. If you DID look them up first, then you are simply trying to lie to win a debate.

D) Again, I have to wonder how long some people have been watching college football, and how much they have paying attention to the game: Underclassmen who start at QB have ALWAYS had a high number of turnovers!! Water is wet, women are crazy, and Freshman/Sophomore QBs throw a lot of picks! These are not debatable, so don't even try!

I would not be upset if Kelly announced that Crist was going to start, due to the offense stalling in the second half. I would think he was off of his rocker!! The offense stalled just as bad, in the second quarter of USF, with Dayne at the helm. Why do you think he got benched in the first place?

Great Post

 

[Irishman77]

completely agree about Golson not being ready this year. I think next year our O will be extremely tough to defend when Golson takes over. JMO

 

[Grahambo]

I really don't understand how people say Rees limits our game because he's physically inferior. No, he can't throw the ball 75 yards. No, he can't run a 4.4 40. How many NFL QB's can throw the ball 75-80 yards? Not many. He can hit every pass needed to win. He's gained like 15 lbs of muscle since last year, and does not look like a child. His arm strength is a lot stronger then last years.

To be fair, DC has as much experience running the BK offense as Rees does and I think DC deserves another shot.
DC can't run the offense better then Tommy, no shot. Dayne has a lot of trouble reading coverages, and seeing the field. That's why its 3rd and 12 and Dayne throws the 5 yard out route to the safety option.

I understand why you would think that but I disagree. When I talk about physical attributes, I am referring to his mobility, I should have been more specific.

I think it's tough to get on DC because of one half of football after he missed a lot last year with the injury and if I recall correctly, Rees didn't do so hot in the 2nd half yesterday. It was Crist's first game action since Tulsa. BK will stick with Rees this week and that's just fine with me. His lack of mobility however will catch up to him sooner or later. The ability to scramble is underrated, IMO anyway.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

I understand why you would think that but I disagree. When I talk about physical attributes, I am referring to his mobility, I should have been more specific.

I think it's tough to get on DC because of one half of football after he missed a lot last year with the injury and if I recall correctly, Rees didn't do so hot in the 2nd half yesterday. It was Crist's first game action since Tulsa. BK will stick with Rees this week and that's just fine with me. His lack of mobility however will catch up to him sooner or later. The ability to scramble is underrated, IMO anyway.

Look at Denard. His ability to scramble and buy time won that game for UM. But, how effective of a scambler can Dayne be? 2 surgeries? I may be wrong, I havent seen him run, but I don't think he is much of a threat to keep a play alive with his legs anymore

 

[Grahambo]

Look at Denard. His ability to scramble and buy time won that game for UM. But, how effective of a scambler can Dayne be? 2 surgeries? I may be wrong, I havent seen him run, but I don't think he is much of a threat to keep a play alive with his legs anymore

I don't remember because he played one half of football, ages ago or at least it seems like it was ages ago.

 

[NDinL.A.]

What's funny about the whole QB debate is:

People who are calling for Hendrix or Golson are confident in Kelly's ability to develop them, and get them ready to play against what is, at least, a difficult schedule. Yet, apparently, these same people have NO trust in Kelly, to choose a starter. If the guy is that good at developing QBs, then it stands to reason that he knows a little bit about the position, and how to evaluate/coach it. But they seem to think that this guy who is so knowledgeable about the position is wrong in assessing that Tommy Rees is the best option to start at the position.

Does this seem crazy to anyone else?

Yup, it seems crazy to me too. I can't believe I read through 6 pages of this. Rees is basically a freshman, BLOWS Hendrix and Golson away in practice, and we have already seen what Crist does. Rees is the best option and it isn't even close. The offense runs so much smoother with him in the game; his audibles have been absolutely unreal many times. And the team just has a different feel with him in the game.

As for Crist...love the kid. Absolutely love him. But no way do we come back vs. Michigan with him as the QB, and I could see us losing yesterday with him in. Why? Because when the chips are down, his body language is just not that of a confident QB, and the team takes on that attitude as well.

Now, Rees has a lot to clean up, no doubt, but when we need offense, he gets it done, period. Look at the 93 yard drive at the end of the half, when things were starting to look bad for ND. Look at the late Michigan drive. Look at the beginnings of games. In the 2nd half, with a big lead, we went conservative, and we didn't move the ball down the field for really the first time all year under Rees in that 2nd half. But we did get one huge drive, and that throw to TJ was a thing of beauty.

Rees is the guy no doubt. And this is coming from a guy who was on the Crist bandwagon all off-season. But Rees is better, period. As he gains experience, the INTs will decrease, and hopefully threads like this will decrease as well LOL...

 

[NDinL.A.]

I understand why you would think that but I disagree. When I talk about physical attributes, I am referring to his mobility, I should have been more specific.

I think it's tough to get on DC because of one half of football after he missed a lot last year with the injury and if I recall correctly, Rees didn't do so hot in the 2nd half yesterday. It was Crist's first game action since Tulsa. BK will stick with Rees this week and that's just fine with me. His lack of mobility however will catch up to him sooner or later. The ability to scramble is underrated, IMO anyway.

Pike went 12-0 with limited/no mobility in this same offense. While the Golson-type QB is preferred, Rees can win in this offense. 1000 yds in 8 quarters makes that very clear.