Can any of Notre Dame's 2007-2009 struggles be placed on Jimmy?

[Kingbish01]

I heard that same thing. How did Terry Tate confirm it?(does he have a source or something) Just wondering.

Not sure, but that guy is Johnny on the spot for real. We have a few guys on here that don't miss, he is one of them.

 

[DillonHall]

This thread is getting pointless now. Jimmy Clausen is a very polarizing figure, and the heated emotions in the past couple of pages reflect this. I would guess that some people who saw the HOF commitment thought he was extremely arrogant and never gave him a fair chance. Meanwhile, others liked the confidence and put all their faith in him. Either way, it shows the importance of first impressions and the role of bias in the way fans view the legacy of a player.

 

[irishpat183]

LOL...I can't believe Jimmy's mom used two other ND qb's as her screen name!

Good lord. It was like I was ragging his own kid. I hate when people get like that. If you don't like my opinion, fine. I can live with that. But don't start calling people pathetic and it "sucks to be them".

We're all ND fans here. But it's not all puppies and ice cream. There are players/coaches/teams that I didn't like, but that doesn't mean I'm any less of a fan.

 

[irishpat183]

This thread is getting pointless now. Jimmy Clausen is a very polarizing figure, and the heated emotions in the past couple of pages reflect this. I would guess that some people who saw the HOF commitment thought he was extremely arrogant and never gave him a fair chance. Meanwhile, others liked the confidence and put all their faith in him. Either way, it shows the importance of first impressions and the role of bias in the way fans view the legacy of a player.

I can live with that. I have to admit, I didn't like the committment. But I have stated that he is a very talented kid. Never thought he had the head to be great...

 

[irishpat183]

Not sure, but that guy is Johnny on the spot for real. We have a few guys on here that don't miss, he is one of them.

Good to know. Thanks!

 

[BGIF]

Wow, I didn't that players peaked when they're 19!
...

Check the career of the guy who makes up the last part of your user name. His best clippings were in HS. Tremendous hype in HS. Offensive Player of The Year if I recall correctly.

Wrong type of QB in Holtz's base offense (and Davie's whatever offense system). Jad to deal with 2 coach's versions of transition offenses. Had 3 QB coaches and multiple OCs and 2 HCs. Came to ND after the Cerrato pipeline ran dry. Holtz lacked the WRs for his Blarney Offense. Two broken bones. (Melving Dansby said he was the best QB he had ever seen BEFORE he broke his collarbone right before the first game of the '03 season.

Etc, etc.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

Jimmy did enough to win games, but the defense was nonexistant. It's almost comical how bad it was. Weis is to blame for the losses, and his inability to develop talent. College kids need to be coached up, and very rarely is there a player who can take the control of games and win (Cam Newton) but he still had Nick Farley and co. to lean on.

Football is about balance, you need a offense, and a defense to win.

 

[Mirer3Powlus]

How would you know what kind of domer I am? Because I don't think that Jimmy Clausen was nearly as good as advertised? Or because I think he left too early when it's obvious that he wasn't mature enough for the NFL?? That makes me pathetic?

And who brought up the Stanford game???......I didn't. Now you're picking and choosing. You want me to start throwing out games in which Jimmy played poorly?? Cause there are a few. And Quinn, was better than advertised/expected at his time at ND. Which is far more impressive than some 5 star kid like Clausen strolling on campus into the starting job. I have a lot more respect for Quinn.

You said, and I quote: "Quinn didn't really win any big games either, but he could beat the MICH's and Stan's and Navy's..." No, Quinn didn't beat those teams; the Notre Dame football team did. Clausen threw for five touchdowns against Stanford and 452 yards against Navy, and you're disappointed in him?

Like I said, my problem doesn't lie with you calling his career a disappointment, as I agree that the most important statistic is wins; my problem lies with you somehow believing that him playing in a spread offense would somehow have been good for his draft status. That shows me that you don't have a clear understanding of what scouts and GMs are thinking.

I'm sorry for making it personal (I was just generalizing you as being overzealous, not attacking you specifically), but I think your blames are in the completely wrong area. Blame the defense, man.

 

[BGIF]

A couple things: ...

You could have saved yourself a bunch of posts if had had simply posted the clause below first. It really sums up your perspective.

... I never liked him all that much. ...

 

[Mirer3Powlus]

Check the career of the guy who makes up the last part of your user name. His best clippings were in HS. Tremendous hype in HS. Offensive Player of The Year if I recall correctly.

Wrong type of QB in Holtz's base offense (and Davie's whatever offense system). Jad to deal with 2 coach's versions of transition offenses. Had 3 QB coaches and multiple OCs and 2 HCs. Came to ND after the Cerrato pipeline ran dry. Holtz lacked the WRs for his Blarney Offense. Two broken bones. (Melving Dansby said he was the best QB he had ever seen BEFORE he broke his collarbone right before the first game of the '03 season.

Etc, etc.

I was referring to peaking physically, which is what the Michigan fan was talking about with draft stock.

And I can't tell if you're lambasting Powlus or giving him a 'get out of jail free' card. Either way, I agree with everything you said.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Powlus would have won the Heisman based on hype alone, even if he had never played a game. I felt bad for the guy. Thought he was Holtz and the next coach's attempt at fitting a square peg into a trapezoid. I still like the guy though.

 

[Mirer3Powlus]

Powlus would have won the Heisman based on hype alone, even if he had never played a game. I felt bad for the guy. Thought he was Holtz and the next coach's attempt at fitting a square peg into a trapezoid. I still like the guy though.

Jimmy Clausen had hype... but Ron had HYPE. Lou immediately named him the starter as a true freshman in a season where he had a championship contending roster! Since he broke his collar bone, there's never been a true freshman to start the season opener at quarterback, right?

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Jimmy Clausen had hype... but Ron had HYPE. Lou immediately named him the starter as a true freshman in a season where he had a championship contending roster! Since he broke his collar bone, there's never been a true freshman to start the season opener at quarterback, right?

I don't think so. I don't think McDougal had ever started until hie finally got his chance his senior year.

I don't think ND had a champ contender when Powlus arrived. They already were experiencing serious flaws on the team, special teams, defense...

By the time Powlus arrived, the Holtz era was crashing to a halt. Daviies, who had been a good DC at TAMU, totally stunk it up at ND. Then he was named HC. I almost thought (just my own angry imagination...) that Davies sabotaged the team to push Holtz out. (Again, just my imagination, but Davies sure did stink it up at ND.)

 

[Jerry]

I can live with that. I have to admit, I didn't like the committment. But I have stated that he is a very talented kid. Never thought he had the head to be great...

You don't really need to be mentally superior to win at QB in college IMO. Look at Vince Young, Matt Leinart, Jamarcus Russell, Cam Newton, ect. The mental capacity usually gets exposed in the NFL. Jimmy just happened to play on terrible ND teams. If you plug him into some of the top programs in the country over the last decade he wins 10+ games easy.

I'll admit that his career was disappointing but there are a lot of factors like people discussed. I can just remember after the '05 season and ND getting NC hype for '06 and landing this Clausen kid who was the top rated QB prospect it just seemed like ND was headed in such a great direction. If somebody would have told me a few years later they would struggle to win 6 games and Weis would be canned I wouldn't have believed it.

 

[BGIF]

I was referring to peaking physically, which is what the Michigan fan was talking about with draft stock.

O.K.

And I can't tell if you're lambasting Powlus or giving him a 'get out of jail free' card. Either way, I agree with everything you said.

Neither lambasting him nor giving him a Monoply card.

Many fans bought into the HS hype about Powlus including Beano's way over the top "Two Heisman's" long before "drinking the kool aid" was a hackneyed expression. Powlus was good enough in 4 weeks on campus for Holtz to name him the '93 Starting QB. Then he had his collarbone broken in practice. In '94 ND's team had lots of newbies, not just the QB. Many fans neglected those facts every time he got sacked.

Powlus didn't live up to the messiah role that many fans (and pundits) had pinned on him. (Neither did Holtz in '94 -'96 nor Weis in '07 - '09.) Like with Clausen the fans couldn't admit that injuries, coaching, scheme, OLine, running game, defense, etc enter into a TEAM game. The messiahs are supposed to throw 5 TDs a game - every game. The fans EXPECT it of "legends" and like religous zealtots they tend to turn on the messiah that proves to be mortal.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

You don't really need to be mentally superior to win at QB in college IMO. Look at Vince Young, Matt Leinart, Jamarcus Russell, Cam Newton, ect. The mental capacity usually gets exposed in the NFL. Jimmy just happened to play on terrible ND teams. If you plug him into some of the top programs in the country over the last decade he wins 10+ games easy.

I'll admit that his career was disappointing but there are a lot of factors like people discussed. I can just remember after the '05 season and ND getting NC hype for '06 and landing this Clausen kid who was the top rated QB prospect it just seemed like ND was headed in such a great direction. If somebody would have told me a few years later they would struggle to win 6 games and Weis would be canned I wouldn't have believed it.

Can't say I've ever been fooled by any "hype" (part of that is because I know so many coaches are flat out stupid).

But there is such a thing as "football IQ" which many "fans" are not aware of. Those high football IQ athletes can make a dumb coach look great.

Funny but too true a statement by some coach..."Give me a superior athlete, and I will coach him down to average."

 

[Mirer3Powlus]

I don't think ND had a champ contender when Powlus arrived. They already were experiencing serious flaws on the team, special teams, defense...

Powlus arrived in the fall of '93, which was the team that was a two point loss to Boston College away from winning a national title. McDougal was never supposed to start for Notre Dame, but Powlus broke his collar bone and started in what was technically his redshirt freshman year in '94.

 

[Old Man Mike]

On Neutered's mention of "football IQ": one part of that [just a part, guys, don't get hyper] is probably what Howard Gardner called "bodily-kinesthestic intelligence". The trouble with Gardner's analysis and "multiple intelligences" scheme was that he was a Harvard Professor Geek and had no experiences that would have told him that there are two of those BK intelligences and not one.

The one he found was the "personal" one, the Greg Louganis one, the one where a person can have perfect awareness and control of every body part. The one he missed was the "geospatial/group" one, the Magic Johnson one, the one where the person has perfect understanding of not only where he fits into a group physical situation, but how the dynamic of that situation is about to change and where it is going to end up. This allows Johnson to "set up" the Magic pass as he is aware of what the whole deal is ahead of time.

It is also why a great "intuitive quarterback" can preternaturally evade the rush, look downfield, sense the dynamics of the loose ruck and know where the open break will be. [Running Backs have this "sense" too; also great linebackers and Troy Palomalo's.]

"You can't teach that", say the coaches, and yep, they're probably right. It's a deep-brain skill---but it's not "schoolbook" linguistic nor mathematical intelligence. You can always improve any brain if you work at it, but some brains are just wired better for some tasks inherently---"born Musicians", etc. This is surely some part of the "football IQ" that some seem to have unfairly naturally.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Powlus arrived in the fall of '93, which was the team that was a two point loss to Boston College away from winning a national title. McDougal was never supposed to start for Notre Dame, but Powlus broke his collar bone and started in what was technically his redshirt freshman year in '94.

Good call. I was off by a year or two. I wasn't able to watch as much ND football at the time. Brings up a good point though...With all Powlus's hype, his team let him get hurt. They rallied to support Mcdougal. Powlus got hurt twice.

I also thought Clausen's o-line, fokking worthless prima fokking donnas that they were, let Clausen take the fall early on. How the fock hard is it to snap from shotgun, and his ******* center bungled it too many times. His line was atrocious. Weis walked into a tough situation. So did Clausen.

 

[Rocket89]

You could have saved yourself a bunch of posts if had had simply posted the clause below first. It really sums up your perspective.

That's what I wanted to say.

 

[Mirer3Powlus]

On Neutered's mention of "football IQ": one part of that [just a part, guys, don't get hyper] is probably what Howard Gardner called "bodily-kinesthestic intelligence". The trouble with Gardner's analysis and "multiple intelligences" scheme was that he was a Harvard Professor Geek and had no experiences that would have told him that there are two of those BK intelligences and not one.

The one he found was the "personal" one, the Greg Louganis one, the one where a person can have perfect awareness and control of every body part. The one he missed was the "geospatial/group" one, the Magic Johnson one, the one where the person has perfect understanding of not only where he fits into a group physical situation, but how the dynamic of that situation is about to change and where it is going to end up. This allows Johnson to "set up" the Magic pass as he is aware of what the whole deal is ahead of time.

It is also why a great "intuitive quarterback" can preternaturally evade the rush, look downfield, sense the dynamics of the loose ruck and know where the open break will be. [Running Backs have this "sense" too; also great linebackers and Troy Palomalo's.]

"You can't teach that", say the coaches, and yep, they're probably right. It's a deep-brain skill---but it's not "schoolbook" linguistic nor mathematical intelligence. You can always improve any brain if you work at it, but some brains are just wired better for some tasks inherently---"born Musicians", etc. This is surely some part of the "football IQ" that some seem to have unfairly naturally.

Very, very interesting stuff you bring up here; this sounds like a much more sophisticated way to define "it" or the intangibles that experts always try and sell you on when drafting a quarterback. You can tell that Golden Tate had "it", Michael Floyd has "it", and I truly, honestly believe that Clausen had "it". He was just a natural at the position; there's no way you throw up that many caught deep balls in his time at Notre Dame without having some sort of football - libido that tells you what spot is going to give the receiver an advantage, even fifty yards downfield. That's probably not a very popular opinion based on his win/loss record over his three year career, but I saw too many pretty passes from the kid to not be convinced that he has a supernatural feel for the game. I really hope Carolina gets him some help so everyone else can realize his potential.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

On Neutered's mention of "football IQ": one part of that [just a part, guys, don't get hyper] is probably what Howard Gardner called "bodily-kinesthestic intelligence". The trouble with Gardner's analysis and "multiple intelligences" scheme was that he was a Harvard Professor Geek and had no experiences that would have told him that there are two of those BK intelligences and not one.

The one he found was the "personal" one, the Greg Louganis one, the one where a person can have perfect awareness and control of every body part. The one he missed was the "geospatial/group" one, the Magic Johnson one, the one where the person has perfect understanding of not only where he fits into a group physical situation, but how the dynamic of that situation is about to change and where it is going to end up. This allows Johnson to "set up" the Magic pass as he is aware of what the whole deal is ahead of time.

It is also why a great "intuitive quarterback" can preternaturally evade the rush, look downfield, sense the dynamics of the loose ruck and know where the open break will be. [Running Backs have this "sense" too; also great linebackers and Troy Palomalo's.] "You can't teach that", say the coaches, and yep, they're probably right. It's a deep-brain skill---but it's not "schoolbook" linguistic nor mathematical intelligence. You can always improve any brain if you work at it, but some brains are just wired better for some tasks inherently---"born Musicians", etc. This is surely some part of the "football IQ" that some seem to have unfairly naturally.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I volunteered at a track club which produced some of the current top athletes in the country. The town I was at was 95% white (to include Hispanic and Latino), the club was 35% black athlets.

WORK. Look up the physcs def. if you want... They started young. They trained their minds and bodies early.

 

[HereComeTheIrish]

I personally think this question was worded poorly. "Can any of Notre Dame's 2007-2009 struggles be placed on Jimmy?"??? Seriously? Of course they can. He was in no way shape or form perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Let's not make him out to be Joe Montana here.... Just sayin'.

 

[Old Man Mike]

On Neutered's point of early training: The earlier you start the brain on a certain sort of task the more you are in its region of post-birth malleability. This will give you a maximum opportunity to highly train for any given skill/talent set. Which includes integration of intention with proper body-part responses in an effective action.

Most of us are quite like one another on most things, therefore our early and intensive training [sometimes unconsciously due to certain common behaviors embedded in the culture or the microculture] will prepare us for certain tasks.

There ARE however persons who are just genetically gifted with certain brain organization [an example of this is the person with the perfectly ordered audiocortex who is therefore gifted with "perfect pitch"]. [some persons are going to have less orderly motor cortexes, or corpus callosums, or less malleable or "accurate" cerebellums---each sort of thing might make one more of a "Klutz" than other folk]. [and of course, Neutered himself is just better looking than the rest of you guys].

There's a lot that goes on "upstairs", and as usual the resultants are a combo of genetics and environmental training and effort.

 

[jason_h537]

Didn't read the whole thread because i have heard this argument enough

At face value, Yes

The QB always gets too much credit and too much blame. Plus there is a group of fans who just dislike him.

As a fan and having watched him week in and week out. He as an individual player was as good as advertised and to me he is a true ND man.

the struggles of 07-09 was a program issue from the top to bottom.

 

[irishandy]

Is Clausen to blame for a poor blocking offense, an okay running game, and horrible defenses that couldn't hold their own ground?? By the way Clausen was playing QB at the University of College Football, not Ohio State, not Michigan, not USC...you get my drift. Personally I am not going to knock Clausen as a person because I don't know him and those who have knocked him- do you personally know him or is it what you've just read?? I would take Clausen over Quinn any day, neither had any big wins in the regular season, but Clausen did get ND a bowl win (Quinn lost his soph. year in his bowl- with a comparable ND team that Clausen had). The only thing that bothered me with Clausen was his leadership skills, but he got better each year. Great thread and I am glad that ND had 3 years with Clausen!!