The Latest article from SBT on Elizabeth Seeberg

[devolg]

Replaced your link with the text. Don't give that douchebag the hits.

Good call, thanks.

 

[phgreek]

Usually, articles bad mouthing ND don't bother me. I shrug, I laugh, I understand. I hate the Yankees and the Cowboys, people hate ND. Understood.

These articles are starting to make me see red. The lack of perspective is what really gets me. Based on the evidence we have, I can tell the story in three headlines:

1) Football player touches girl's breast, decides to stop.

2) Freshman sends stupid text message. Threatening or attempt to be helpful? Nobody knows.

3) Girl with history of depression overdoses on anti-depressants, dies.


That's the story. Has any one of the Tribune or blog reporters looked into SOP for investigating claims of sexual assault at American universities? Has anyone shown that the football player knew he was "assaulting" the girl? Has anyone shown that ND has enough influence over the DA and the local police to strong arm them into a cover-up? Or that ND would even try to cover something like this up?

NO! Anything beyond my three headlines is pure conjecture or worse--- malicious BS. Articles about ND sell, especially when they're controversial. Remember that ESPN reporter? Doesn't he look good now? He looked into the story and decided there wasn't one. If only the Tribune held itself to the same journalistic standards that ESPN does...

agree...and wow..ESPN as the integrity beacon...not sure I can go there...but in a relative sense we seem to be there on this one...

 

[TerryTate]

Integrity a two-way street | Inside the Irish

Very good article.

 

[IrishLax]

Wow, great post Terry. That should be shared with everyone.

 

[kmoose]

Integrity a two-way street | Inside the Irish

Very good article.

Indeed!

 

[no.1IrishFan]

Integrity a two-way street | Inside the Irish

Very good article.

AMAZING article!

 

[devolg]

Great piece however I'm afraid it will do little to inspire integrity at the tribune?

 

[IrishLax]

Great piece however I'm afraid it will do little to inspire integrity at the tribune?

Yeah, it's not going to change anything, but at least between this article and ESPN taking the middle road, at least SOME media outlets are giving us a fair shake. I already wrote a couple emails to the Tribune writers linking this article and asking if they have any comment or if they were being intentionally deceiving. I don't think I'll get a response, but they do read the emails they get so at least they'll get the message they can't hoodwink everyone.

 

[gatsby]

Usually, articles bad mouthing ND don't bother me. I shrug, I laugh, I understand. I hate the Yankees and the Cowboys, people hate ND. Understood.

These articles are starting to make me see red. The lack of perspective is what really gets me. Based on the evidence we have, I can tell the story in three headlines:

1) Football player touches girl's breast, decides to stop.

2) Freshman sends stupid text message. Threatening or attempt to be helpful? Nobody knows.

3) Girl with history of depression overdoses on anti-depressants, dies.


That's the story. Has any one of the Tribune or blog reporters looked into SOP for investigating claims of sexual assault at American universities? Has anyone shown that the football player knew he was "assaulting" the girl? Has anyone shown that ND has enough influence over the DA and the local police to strong arm them into a cover-up? Or that ND would even try to cover something like this up?

NO! Anything beyond my three headlines is pure conjecture or worse--- malicious BS. Articles about ND sell, especially when they're controversial. Remember that ESPN reporter? Doesn't he look good now? He looked into the story and decided there wasn't one. If only the Tribune held itself to the same journalistic standards that ESPN does...

I have followed this thread with great interest. I have been a trial lawyer for 37 years. I can't say I have been involved in many criminal cases in recent years but I think I can respond intelligently to the discussion about this case. This fellow IrishinSyria is definitely emotional about this matter. He said in a previous comment: This is the only indisputable fact in the whole case. ND has a reputation of being very diligent when it comes to punishing students for failing to live up to their standards. Given the lack of certainty we can ever have...."

Now he goes off on the indisputable fact that this player touched the girl's breast!!!! HOW DO WE KNOW THIS??? Is this based upon proof that would stand up in court? The answer is clearly no and this case needs to melt into the past. No one will ever know and commentators here need to get over that.

There are clearly suspicions cast toward the university that are unfortunate. That's not nice but life is like that.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Now he goes off on the indisputable fact that this player touched the girl's breast!!!! HOW DO WE KNOW THIS??? Is this based upon proof that would stand up in court? The answer is clearly no and this case needs to melt into the past. No one will ever know and commentators here need to get over that.

Alright, so I've been fast and loose with the word "indisputable*". Wouldn't want me having to testify about *anything* in court because I really don't know what happened.

That being said, it's pretty clear that he did "touch her breast". The DA "broke" that news in his letter explaining the decision not to prosecute... both parties gave very similar accounts about what happened, the major difference was one...Lizzie... called it "assault" while the other... ND student... was under the impression it was consensual. In fact, if you take into account her history of panic attacks and insecurities, it is completely possible that both students were telling their truth in their respective accounts. They come from different backgrounds and have different psyches. One is a stud football player who is probably used to having girls throw themselves at him while the other is a girl intimidated by the guy she's with and deeply uncomfortable with her own sexuality. I'd go so far to say this, it is very likely they were completely honest in their statements. In his mind, he was acting normally and in her mind, she was being violated but was too scared to say "no."

Now, the other thing is this; I agree with you. I don't *think* that ND student committed any crime or even acted abnormally. I am *almost positive* that even if the kid did commit a crime, there's not enough evidence to convict him in front of a disciplinary board, never mind a court of law. And I *would bet my life* that ND nor the police department nor the DA are involved in a football-centric conspiracy to cover up for this kid. And I *wish* this would just go away, but the Chicago Tribune and various blogs seem determined to make this into a story. So when I read a series of articles slandering a University that strives to hold its students to a higher standard and mocking a coach for saying "integrity is important"... yes, I do get emotional. Mad even.





*actually, no I haven't. I never said my three headlines were "indisputable", but I'll cede the point.

 

[phgreek]

I have followed this thread with great interest. I have been a trial lawyer for 37 years. I can't say I have been involved in many criminal cases in recent years but I think I can respond intelligently to the discussion about this case. This fellow IrishinSyria is definitely emotional about this matter. He said in a previous comment: This is the only indisputable fact in the whole case. ND has a reputation of being very diligent when it comes to punishing students for failing to live up to their standards. Given the lack of certainty we can ever have...."

Now he goes off on the indisputable fact that this player touched the girl's breast!!!! HOW DO WE KNOW THIS??? Is this based upon proof that would stand up in court? The answer is clearly no and this case needs to melt into the past. No one will ever know and commentators here need to get over that.

There are clearly suspicions cast toward the university that are unfortunate. That's not nice but life is like that.

...It may not be "evidence" but both sides seem to accept it...anyway I understood what Syria was saying...to me its more an approach that says...fine she says a breast was touched, and he didn't appear to deny... ok he touched her breast...doesn't have to be admisible to be true, or worthy of acknowledgement.

I don't like the "suspicions" cast toward the university...I think its typical, and the institution will certainly weather this. Where I draw the line, and start to get jacked up is when folks skewer a kid.

I believe Ms. Seeberg's offical statements, if ever presented in their entirety with the evidence, will not support the ire and commentary from the Chicago Tribune and others...I believe the tribune has seen her statements (from her laptop), and chose to manipulate the situation...and chose to make the accused expendable in their pursuits. And as they intended, he has been outed as a rapist, and his life will never be the same.

Thats the conduct I get emotional over...

The Tribune's conduct may not evoke such a visceral response from you...but they sure as hell do from me. let it go...NOPE, and tell that to the accused and his family while your at it.

 

[devolg]

According to Dean Huppert... "National morning show with the father coming maybe tomorrow."

 

[devolg]

Tom Seeberg on GMA

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[ab2cmiller]

I saw the interview on Good Morning America this morning.

Here is a link to the Good Morning America Website which has the video replay of it.
Link

It looks like devolg beat me to it

 

[gatsby]

When you combine sex and a newsworthy subject like Notre Dame football it makes perfect sense the media will sometimes go crazy. I have seen it many times. Many years ago our local paper literally crucified a fine doctor who had plead guilty to incest many years prior. It was sickening.

I come here to read about this subject because I won't ever get in depth information anywhere else. And I love Notre Dame as much as anyone here. We were national champs my senior year. So I am with you on the outrage at the coverage. But as previously alluded to some comments go too far. Comparing this poor girl to the complainant in the Duke lacrosse case even in an oblique fashion, for example, is not right. Sad case, but I do think it will go away eventually. I did see the name of the player which I am sure has now been deleted and will follow his career. Unfortunately sexual assaults by prominent football players is at least as common as a group of players praying in the middle of the field.

 

[kmoose]

I have some issues with the family in this story, and the media reporting of it. This story is very much a he said/she said kind of situation. In such situations, an individual or entity's credibility is crucial. I keep hearing what a "vibrant" girl Lizzy Seeberg was, how she was "the life of the party", etc. I'm not anything near a mental health professional, but in my uneducated experience, these are not the types of descriptions that I would normally hear associated with someone who was suicidally depressed? I just have to wonder if there is no credibility to these characterizations of her, and if these characterizations are only invoked in an attempt to sway public opinion in a "David(Lizzy Seeberg) vs. Goliath(Notre Dame football)" manner. I'm not saying that this is the only explanation, but I am saying that it adds to my skepticism about the motives of those accusing the player and University.

 

[Jerry]

What's seems to be ironic in this whole situation is that if the player would have actually physically abused and assaulted the girl. It would have been an open and shut case, the player would have been arrested and expelled and this whole thing would have been different.

But because the incident appears to be so casual. Tom Seeberg says in that interview that Lizzy wasn't pursuing a criminal charge but she wanted to "pursue something in the disciplinary code of conduct". Well that's sort of a huge gray area for police????? You either make a specific charge against an individual or you don't. If you can't decided whether you want to accuse somebody of something it puts the police in an awkward position.

 

[gatsby]

Guess I will add my totally speculative comment that if the incident involved facts that are the best information we currently have, I would not expect to see a young woman take her own life for that reason/incident alone.

 

[devolg]

It looks like devolg beat me to it

Sorry bud :\

I'm really starting to take issue with this family. I still feel for them, but I feel their motives might not be as sincere & wholesome as they would like you to believe.

From the onset this ABC story has huge inconsistencies. The mother describes her as "always happy" and then (literally within seconds) the reporter states how she "battled anxiety and depression" This seems to be a major contradiction. I'm not sure how anybody at ABC missed this.

They go on to show a statement from Notre Dame that includes in part of the statement “We kept the Seeberg's informed and at the same time honored their request to keep this matter private”. Keeping it private at the request of the victims family completely contradicts what media outlets (most notably the Chicago Tribune) would lead you to believe about a conspiracy to hide this in hopes that it goes away. Claims that the Seebergs have chosen not to refute but whats more have participated in.

Most noticeable to me was Mr. Seebergs reaction when the reporter says... “and that player continues to take the field for Notre Dame” There's an awkward silence & a painful expression on Seeberg's face as he considers this. Then very quickly his comments turn defensive. Down playing what they're after with words like “simple” saying “ we started this journey as two people, a simple trip, from Chicago to South Bend to find out like any parent would what the status of this investigation is” It clearly infuriates this man that the accused is going unpunished.

The Seebergs aren't interested in facts or some righteous crusade to protect possible future victims. They're interested in justice and seemingly don't care whether its right or wrong. I give them a week before they utter the players name publicly.

Also I've been hearing some rumors that something very similar to these sexual abuse accusations happened at Dayton with this girl and is the reason she was only there for 1 semester. Again they're just rumors but at this point I wouldn’t be shocked.

 

[IrishLax]

Devolg, you're more right than you know.

 

[phgreek]

I saw the interview on Good Morning America this morning.

Here is a link to the Good Morning America Website which has the video replay of it.
Link

It looks like devolg beat me to it

I see where Mr. Seeberg is coming from...I am sure it is insanely frustrating to walk in his shoes. My heart still goes out to him, and I believe as a dad, he doesn't have a choice but to keep swinging.

According to Mr. Seeberg himself, his issues seem to boil down to the ND investigators not prioritizing correctly...and ND not giving him the information or standing to pursue the honor code violation. We could argue these points...some points of law and accused rights issues...all day, but in the end, the worst case seems to fall significantly short of what was protrayed in the media.

Is anyone, including future victims, served by the media's conduct here?

In the end, this will go down as over reach, and will actually serve to weaken victims' positions. We have what could have been a repeat of the Duke Lacrosse situation (the university is moved by the press and public outcry) if ND doesn't follow their processes.

I don't think Lizzy Seeberg was being irresponsible in filing claims/reports, if she thought what transpired was an attack...I don't think her dad is doing things outside of what any dad would do...but niether of these people painted this as what the Chicago Tribune and other media have painted it. I don't think either of these people engaged in character assasination, however the media used their words to do so. Unfortunately, Mr. Seeberg is now yoked with the sins of the Tribune and other media for the remainder of his efforts...

Can't wait to see how he media tries to reconcile Mr. Seeberg's statements with their own...should be shower worthy for sure...there are just some horrific human beings in the media...

 

[IrishinSyria]

Guess I will add my totally speculative comment that if the incident involved facts that are the best information we currently have, I would not expect to see a young woman take her own life for that reason/incident alone.

You would not expect a rational young woman to take her life for what has been reported. Very rarely do suicides make sense... you often find that the people who have the highest mountains to climb thrive (Handcyclist Beimfohr To Compete in the Marine Corps Marathon: No Ordinary Joe | Paralyzed Veterans of America) while people for whom everything seems to be great choose to take their own life.

So, while I sympathize with the Seebergs, I think that what seems to be their driving motive, finding closure or an explanation or justice for their daughter's death, is a flawed one. My concern is that they're going to destroy a young man's life in their Sisyphean quest for... whatever it is they're looking for.

 

[gatsby]

You would not expect a rational young woman to take her life for what has been reported. Very rarely do suicides make sense... you often find that the people who have the highest mountains to climb thrive (Handcyclist Beimfohr To Compete in the Marine Corps Marathon: No Ordinary Joe | Paralyzed Veterans of America) while people for whom everything seems to be great choose to take their own life.

So, while I sympathize with the Seebergs, I think that what seems to be their driving motive, finding closure or an explanation or justice for their daughter's death, is a flawed one. My concern is that they're going to destroy a young man's life in their Sisyphean quest for... whatever it is they're looking for.

Yes

 

[phgreek]

You would not expect a rational young woman to take her life for what has been reported. Very rarely do suicides make sense... you often find that the people who have the highest mountains to climb thrive (Handcyclist Beimfohr To Compete in the Marine Corps Marathon: No Ordinary Joe | Paralyzed Veterans of America) while people for whom everything seems to be great choose to take their own life.

So, while I sympathize with the Seebergs, I think that what seems to be their driving motive, finding closure or an explanation or justice for their daughter's death, is a flawed one. My concern is that they're going to destroy a young man's life in their Sisyphean quest for... whatever it is they're looking for.

I can see that if the Seebergs stopped, this would go away, so in that point you are correct...no question. I just think what the Seebergs are doing is completely expected...and I haven't seen yet, where they targeted the young man...maybe that comes out later...or I missed something...but I still think the outing, and subsequent destruction of the young man's life has been largely a concoction of the Media and Blogosphere...

 

[enrico514]

The more I find out about this story the more I wonder why I've wasted time reading about it or listening to her father's interview. I'm terribly sorry for their loss and maybe this is their way of taking the pain away but there now seems to be something really off with this entire story. The family never wanted this to a legal matter but simply wanted the university to live by it's honor code. Well... this is just my opinion but ND has been way too strict in the past with how they deal with their athletes and specifically football players. Good for them for standing bye the player if the investigation showed that there was nothing really to the event of that night. Her parents seem to be putting to much of her death on that single one event. Her past would seem to indicate that there were some troubling signs prior that hold significantly more importance in her tragic decision. They have a right to grieve and to want answers but they do not have the right to keep coming after this kid (believed to be innocent) if they are not happy with the answers they are getting. Two wrongs do not make a right!!!

 

[IrishinSyria]

I can see that if the Seebergs stopped, this would go away, so in that point you are correct...no question. I just think what the Seebergs are doing is completely expected...and I haven't seen yet, where they targeted the young man...maybe that comes out later...or I missed something...but I still think the outing, and subsequent destruction of the young man's life has been largely a concoction of the Media and Blogosphere...

Basically, I think everybody's doing exactly what they're expected to do.

The anguished parents are trying to find answers. The school is trying to protect both it's student and it's reputation. The media is trying to find a story (once again, tip of the hat to ESPN). The player and Kelly are not talking to the media.

My worry is the player ends up being a casualty of the media and the parent's side of the equation. The part you missed is that the media received the player's name...from the father. The blog by the ND alum that discussed identifying information, she got that identity from the parents when they turned over Lizzie's statement. As far as I can tell, the parents have told the player's name to anyone with a notepad. It's been the media's call to not use the name, though it was that POS blogger that hinted at it who got me riled up in the first place (and the Tribune piece mocking Kelly's use of integrity..)

 

[NankerPhelge]

[But honestly, between this and the Sullivan case I can assure you, from being in the Bend everyday, it's being taken care of.[/QUOTE]

Of course the Sullivan case and this one are entirely different. I am a Johnny-come-lately to this thread, but the more I learn about the Sullivan case, the more I can see why some would think that ND was negligent in its investigation of the Seeburg case. Now, don't get me wrong here, I detest the whole idea of jumping to conclusions and trying to ruin someone's reputation and life based on mere accusations, or of attacking the University unjustly, as seems to be going on in the Seeburg case. What I am getting at is that, at least from the information I have gathered, there is some good reason to be astounded at the cynicism of the current ND administration as related to the Sullivan matter. Which could lead to suspiscion of ND's handling of other matters, including the Seeburg matter, whether or not that suspiscion is well-founded. So, Kiss Me, I am curious as to whether you are getting the same information I am about the Sullivan matter?

 

[phgreek]

Basically, I think everybody's doing exactly what they're expected to do.

The anguished parents are trying to find answers. The school is trying to protect both it's student and it's reputation. The media is trying to find a story (once again, tip of the hat to ESPN). The player and Kelly are not talking to the media.

My worry is the player ends up being a casualty of the media and the parent's side of the equation. The part you missed is that the media received the player's name...from the father. The blog by the ND alum that discussed identifying information, she got that identity from the parents when they turned over Lizzie's statement. As far as I can tell, the parents have told the player's name to anyone with a notepad. It's been the media's call to not use the name, though it was that POS blogger that hinted at it who got me riled up in the first place (and the Tribune piece mocking Kelly's use of integrity..)

I share the exact same worry about this kid...being used as a pawn...pisses me off...and yea, clearly I did not know the parents specifically threw him to the wolves. I know the tribune had the full statement, but I didn't know the idiot alum had it...thought she was just taking off from what the tribune said. Either way, you gotta wonder why they haven't just come out with the entire statement...and let it speak for itself...anyway I've kicked that dead horse enough.

on a positive note: I noticed that initial Libelous Youtube video came down, and the blogger I came across that linked to it was backpedaling like a DC politician...wish there was an IQ test before folks posted anything, anywhere...Also wished they knew Anonymity on YouTube, or anywhere on the net, is a farse...would prevent alot of this crap.

 

[Irish Insanity]

DELETE

 

[TerryTate]

We're still not promoting it.