The Latest article from SBT on Elizabeth Seeberg

IrishinSyria

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In ND's favor, we have seen players suspend or expelled for far far less crimes than sexual assault or rape.

This is the only indisputable fact in the whole case. ND has a reputation of being very diligent when it comes to punishing students for failing to live up to their standards. Given the lack of certainty we can ever have, besides certainty of what didn't happen (he didn't text his buddy asking him to leave, she never tried to stop him, there was no sex or penetration that took place...), there's absolutely no reason to believe that ND all of a sudden decided it was going to shield football players.
 

IrishLax

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This is the only indisputable fact in the whole case. ND has a reputation of being very diligent when it comes to punishing students for failing to live up to their standards. Given the lack of certainty we can ever have, besides certainty of what didn't happen (he didn't text his buddy asking him to leave, she never tried to stop him, there was no sex or penetration that took place...), there's absolutely no reason to believe that ND all of a sudden decided it was going to shield football players.

So true. We kicked McLarney out of school for smoking weed. Yaetman got in all kinds of trouble for just drinking. And those guys were star athletes.

Why on earth anyone thinks we are all of a sudden covering up for a frosh football player is beyond me. It also reinforces my belief on why America was designed as a republic and NOT a democracy. People, as a whole, are uninformed and illogical.
 

Irish Houstonian

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"If you accept that, all other things being equal, a mentally-ill person is more likely to misreport facts than a "sane" person"

this is how your premise started. it is faulty from the get go. you cant be trying to say you were saying all this in a general sense and not attributing said mental illness to Lizzy Seeburg. mental illness is an awfully broad term. the answer is no, a person with her "condition" is not more likely to misreport events....thus her condition would not be relevant as it pertains to the reporting of events.

her condition is, however, most certainly attributable to the way she chose to handle whatever may have happend to her.

dskoo,

First, when a person uses the word "if" what they are saying is "in the event that". That is, they are presenting a hypothetical. It's not a premise. I'm sorry they didn't teach you that in mental-illness-expert school.

Secondly, I don't have to take any "general sense" or whatever that means. My father and brother (and me?) both suffer from depression and mental illness, and *all other things being equal* a mentally-ill person is more likely to misreport facts than a non mentally-ill person. If you're more likely to see leprechauns, or be paranoid, or have an unhealthy desire for attention, then you are more likely to misreport events. If that's politically incorrect, or make you uncomfortable, tough. Being an attorney, I was simply commenting on what was necessary to make her mental illness relevant to the inquiry.

I have no idea whether this particular victim is lying or not, nor does anyone else. And each time you accuse me of making this claim you only reveal your lack of reading comprehension abilities.
 

IrishinSyria

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Wasn't Yeatman drinking and driving?

IIRC, he had two offenses: one for driving with alcohol on his breath when he was under 21 (I'm pretty sure he was under the legal limit) and another for being at a house party while he was under 21.
 

Irish Insanity

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None of us know what happened in the room, just her and the player. In ND's favor, we have seen players suspend or expelled for far far less crimes than sexual assault or rape.

Your right, none of know what happened in the room because we weren't there. But, no charges were filed and all of the allegations were left as such. Which means previous suspensions based on proven fact can't be compared to an unproven incident.
 

IrishLax

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IIRC, he had two offenses: one for driving with alcohol on his breath when he was under 21 (I'm pretty sure he was under the legal limit) and another for being at a house party while he was under 21.

This is basically correct. For the second violation he blew something very low.

My point is, he was suspended for the whole season for both the first incident and the second one. ND does not **** around with players that step out of line. If the freshman in question had really done something wrong, he would've been at a minimum suspended and probably kicked out of school. And believe me... if there was anything prosecutable the local authorities would have gone after it as well. The ignorance shown by the general public and media here has been disgusting to me. They just don't get the way thing works.

Also, a couple years ago a USC player straight up raped a girl, she filed the complaint and it was covered up. ESPN did a whole feature on it. Can't remember the guys name. For what it's worth, as much as most of us hate ESPN, they've been pretty fair throughout this whole thing. It's the hack Tribune reporters that have been completely out of line with the way they have spun "facts."
 

IrishinSyria

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Here's another article at Lizzy Seeberg's Family Feels Rejected by Notre Dame as Football Star Is Not Charged. Our hearts and prayer are with her family.

You know what. That article did it for me. My hearts and prayers aren't with the family anymore. They've clearly leaked the identity of the player to just about any reporter who will listen and are coming off as increasingly desperate in their attempts to blame anybody for their daughter's alleged suicide except for the one person truly at fault: her. I know it must be a terrible terrible thing to lose a daughter, especially in such a horrible fashion, but this passive aggressive act is starting to get old. 'We don't want to blame ND... but it's their fault.' 'We don't want to ruin the player's life...but here's his name' and 'we just hired a lawyer, made this public, described the incident in the worst light possible, and blamed ND and the player for our daughter's suicide because we want someone to say they're sorry? They already did say sorry? We want them to be more sorry... you know... in a way that would open up the door to a civil suit and possible criminal charges.'

Clearly, I'm being insensitive right now. I blame it on that article, which includes such highlights as "presenting their lawyer's summary of several conversations with ND's lawyer as direct quotes" "revealing the player's identity by a description of his actions that is so specific it can only be one person*" "using an interview with an anonymous mom of somebody who knew him in middle-school to slander his character" and finally, ignoring any detail that might make the whole thing seem less damning.






*Did any of our recruits get suspended during high-school last year?
 

devolg

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I read that article yesterday & was completely perplexed. What really caught my attention was.....

According to the records her family gave me, she'd fought back suicidal thoughts periodically since high school

This is an all out witch-hunt against Notre Dame and anyone either wanting to make a name for themselves or or add fuel to their already deep hatred for the University is getting on board. They will not let go of the fact that it was originally reported as a "rape" and they want someone to blame for this girls suicide. There's simply no other reason she took her own life. Sadly most of them are more interested in taking down Notre Dame rather than the facts which have become very muddied.

The simple fact is (and this is based on her own account) an admittedly emotionally unstable girl willingly went to this young mans dorm room & willingly put herself in a position to be alone with him. (she could of left when the other couple left if she was in fear) An advance was made and a breast was touched. I'm sorry but BFD. I've made several attempts to get to 2nd base in my life, some successful some not. It's a natural progression. A girl agrees to be alone with you whom you believe is interested, you start off kissing & hands begin to roam as you believe you are being intimate. It's human nature & does not make you a "Monster".

Maybe the police did drag their feet but I can really kind of understand. This was not sinister. It wasn't rape. It was a boob grab.
 

IrishLax

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I read that article yesterday & was completely perplexed. What really caught my attention was.....



This is an all out witch-hunt against Notre Dame and anyone either wanting to make a name for themselves or or add fuel to their already deep hatred for the University is getting on board. They will not let go of the fact that it was originally reported as a "rape" and they want someone to blame for this girls suicide. There's simply no other reason she took her own life. Sadly most of them are more interested in taking down Notre Dame rather than the facts which have become very muddied.

The simple fact is (and this is based on her own account) an admittedly emotionally unstable girl willingly went to this young mans dorm room & willingly put herself in a position to be alone with him. (she could of left when the other couple left if she was in fear) An advance was made and a breast was touched. I'm sorry but BFD. I've made several attempts to get to 2nd base in my life, some successful some not. It's a natural progression. A girl agrees to be alone with you whom you believe is interested, you start off kissing & hands begin to roam as you believe you are being intimate. It's human nature & does not make you a "Monster".

Maybe the police did drag their feet but I can really kind of understand. This was not sinister. It wasn't rape. It was a boob grab.

Exactly. As I've said from the beginning, this girl had serious mental issues for a long time, and anyone who thinks boob grab => death is a reasonable cause and effect is out of their minds. This is beyond a witch hunt.
 

IrishinSyria

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Ok, so my last post was a little over the top, but the fact that that the author of the last article identified the player by giving a description so specific that it could only refer to one person, but was too much of a coward to actually use his name really pissed me off.
 

Irish Insanity

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Reading the new article my prayers are still with the family because this is not something anyone desires to go thru. But at the same time they have spent their time since gaining knowledge of the situation has been to paint their family as the victims. They have brought most of the non-factual info to the media and helped the many media outlets build BS stories out of comlete lies. They're daughter is the victim because of how she felt violated and eventually chose to end her life. They aren't owed any meeting or explination by anybody at ND. ND has done nothing wrong. Closure and grieving is what anyone needs when they lose a loved one. They seem to feel thats not important and that painting themselves as the victim and attacking the inocent ND is more important. I'm sorry for the loss of their daughter, but shame on them for everything they have done since.
 

Kingbish01

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close this thread

I agree, my vote is to close this. Just saw something on Youtube that was just crazy. I say let the cops and ND do their job and we should all relax on this topic.
 

kmoose

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I agree, my vote is to close this. Just saw something on Youtube that was just crazy. I say let the cops and ND do their job and we should all relax on this topic.

I have to disagree. There's nothing wrong with people offering their opinions on a very prevalent topic in today's society. I realize that some people may prefer not to read about, but they can always choose not to click on this thread. None of the discussion here is going to hinder the cops, or ND, from doing their jobs.
 

phork

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The problem is this discussion cannot go any further. None of us were there, none of us know anything about the case, other than what has been reported in the media. Which, incidentally, didn't know enough in the beginning anyway. I vote for a lock down.
 

kmoose

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The problem is this discussion cannot go any further. None of us were there, none of us know anything about the case, other than what has been reported in the media. Which, incidentally, didn't know enough in the beginning anyway. I vote for a lock down.

I don't think anyone here is trying to solve the case. I can only say that some of the discussion, for me, has opened my eyes to points of view that I had never considered.
 

devolg

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Whats the point of a "discussion" board then?

Look this is being discussed all over the internet & in most places it isn't pretty. Personally it's nice to be able to discuss it civilly without the underlying sentiment that Notre Dame is an evil empire hell bent on conspiring to protect its most prized demonic football players.
 

Fan of the Irish

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Whats the point of a "discussion" board then?

Look this is being discussed all over the internet & in most places it isn't pretty. Personally it's nice to be able to discuss it civilly without the underlying sentiment that Notre Dame is an evil empire hell bent on conspiring to protect its most prized demonic football players.

I agree, every article I have seen written about this keeps talking about Notre Dame covering up inforamtion just to protect the player. You can look back and it is clear that Notre Dame doesn't give players special treatment and at times you could argue are harder on players as far as discipline goes.
 

IrishLax

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Whats the point of a "discussion" board then?

Look this is being discussed all over the internet & in most places it isn't pretty. Personally it's nice to be able to discuss it civilly without the underlying sentiment that Notre Dame is an evil empire hell bent on conspiring to protect its most prized demonic football players.

Indeed.

I've had to resist going off on Facebook many times now. People just don't get it. There are thousands of sexual assault and rapes each year on college campuses. How many of them lead to a suicide? More to the point, how many times does the allegedly grabbing a boob get reported to the DA before the police have finished a report? NEVER! It's just an absolute freak coincidence that the girl feeling the "fear in the room" happened to have anxiety problems, depression issues and a history of suicidal thoughts. Maybe this sent her over the edge... but if this is all it took, it was only a matter of time. Not being insensitive, just applying some common sense.

The media and hack writers in this case = the "gang of 88" in the Duke lacrosse scandal. If you don't know what I'm talking about, look it up.
 

devolg

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I've had to resist going off on Facebook many times now. .

Facebook is rampant with torches & pitchforks surrounding this story. The almost universal refusal to be objective and open minded is absolutely horrifying.
 

Kingbish01

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I just said to shut it down because its like beating a dead horse. All that's left is to out the player (and its coming) and then all judge him. If the cops and ND decide to move forward then it would then make sense to discuss it. Just looks to me like a bunch of Irish haters keeping it going in the media and most message boards.
 

phgreek

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I just said to shut it down because its like beating a dead horse. All that's left is to out the player (and its coming) and then all judge him. If the cops and ND decide to move forward then it would then make sense to discuss it. Just looks to me like a bunch of Irish haters keeping it going in the media and most message boards.

The outing is done...the last article did everything but name the guy...and then commenters to that article named names and promised/wished biblical revenge (Ezekial 25:17, [players name] !)...this is now hanging on a named ND player...although the player named isn't the right guy!
 
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phgreek

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You know what. That article did it for me. My hearts and prayers aren't with the family anymore. They've clearly leaked the identity of the player to just about any reporter who will listen and are coming off as increasingly desperate in their attempts to blame anybody for their daughter's alleged suicide except for the one person truly at fault: her. I know it must be a terrible terrible thing to lose a daughter, especially in such a horrible fashion, but this passive aggressive act is starting to get old. 'We don't want to blame ND... but it's their fault.' 'We don't want to ruin the player's life...but here's his name' and 'we just hired a lawyer, made this public, described the incident in the worst light possible, and blamed ND and the player for our daughter's suicide because we want someone to say they're sorry? They already did say sorry? We want them to be more sorry... you know... in a way that would open up the door to a civil suit and possible criminal charges.'

Clearly, I'm being insensitive right now. I blame it on that article, which includes such highlights as "presenting their lawyer's summary of several conversations with ND's lawyer as direct quotes" "revealing the player's identity by a description of his actions that is so specific it can only be one person*" "using an interview with an anonymous mom of somebody who knew him in middle-school to slander his character" and finally, ignoring any detail that might make the whole thing seem less damning.



*Did any of our recruits get suspended during high-school last year?

All I can say is I read this "piece". Tell me what you think about Hennberger's right to freedom of the press when she used it to strip the rights of someone not even accused of a crime. He is now convicted in the court of public opinion...and she intended for that to happen...

Henneberger didn't even out him because she is on a crusade to get someone she thinks got away with something...you will leave that article thinking...she didn't really believe he committed a crime...she's angry at Jenkins for not talking to the Seebergs...Henneberger makes alot of backhanded references like same ole Catholic coverup...just like priests, and the St. Joes County folks were part of the conspiracy because they were Alums...and it took too long for the ND police to talk to folks...and the accused has a violent past according to an account from one girl's mother from the 5th grade and an incident in high school...but in the end, its all noise to cover the fact that she stomped on the guy's rights because she thinks Jenkins, Catholics, and ND are just too full of themselves...its like this nut job, like the last nut job, thinks she can determine that transparency trumps the rights of the accused (or not accused), and that she can make ND do what she thinks is right...its insanity...what an idiot.
 

NDFANnSouthWest

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I read this as well as other articles on this and it is a PR nightmare....and more importatly a young life was loss and no one will ever know if the death was induced by the incident.

A distant second however very relevant...is the young man accused of this...will carry a burden (innocent or not) for the rest of his life.

Tragic on all fronts...pray for the family....
 

phgreek

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I read this as well as other articles on this and it is a PR nightmare....and more importatly a young life was loss and no one will ever know if the death was induced by the incident.

A distant second however very relevant...is the young man accused of this...will carry a burden (innocent or not) for the rest of his life.

Tragic on all fronts...pray for the family....

agreed...I mentioned in earlier responses that I felt terrible for the Seebergs...Mr. in particlular. This not a reversal of my thoughts on that, but rather an adendum...

This article and the blog from Slowe are particularly offensive because they attacked this kid as judge, jury, and executioner...they both pretty much say how mad they are at ND, and not because they think this kid got away with a crime...they hate the process at ND...and their opinion on "transparency", and that of the Seebergs trumps any other legal concern...so how do ya get to where you burn the kid if you are pissed at ND...and feel ok with that?

and the video on Youtube...how is that not libel? does the NCAA stop college kids from establishing or being beneficiary to a legal/civil defense fund?
 

devolg

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More Tribune slander

SOUTH BEND, Ind. — Curious to see in person how the most visible leader at Notre Dame defended the most famous college football program in America from charges of hypocrisy — and worse — I came Friday to hear coach Brian Kelly.

And was astonished by what I heard.

I shouldn't have been.

Kelly used the word "integrity" four times in 30 seconds while answering a question about support for a player accused of sexually attacking a St. Mary's College student who killed herself 10 days later.

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"If you don't have integrity, what else do you have?" Kelly began. "I've got a family to raise. I've got kids. I have a football family here. If there's no integrity in what you do … I'd have been in a different business a long time ago.

"Integrity is probably, for me, the only thing that keeps me going in this business. Sometimes misinformation and not having the right facts drives you crazy. So you have to have something that you hang your hat on. It's always, for me, been doing the right thing. And integrity."

As the Notre Dame coach invoked all that was wholesome and good about the guys in gold helmets, the cyber hunt to identify the player and poke into his past continued. The Tribune is not naming the player because he was not charged with a crime.

For Kelly, a critical phase of the sad Elizabeth "Lizzy" Seeberg case ended when St. Joseph County Prosecutor Michael Dvorak announced Thursday he won't pursue criminal charges. Kelly can focus on recruiting blue-chip players and playing Miami on Dec. 31 in the Sun Bowl.

Kelly believes Dvorak's decision provided "clarity." It's the prevailing thought among certain Domers who always will believe this saga was nothing more than a witch hunt.

Clarity?

In an interview with the Tribune, Tom and Mary Seeberg revealed that 15 days passed between the time their daughter reported the allegation to Notre Dame Police and when police interviewed the player on Sept. 15. In the interim, the Seebergs' 19-year-old daughter took her own life while the accused player faced Purdue and Michigan.

Where is the clarity in that gap of time?

This search for answers never has been about whether a prosecutor files charges. This search has been about a university and its athletic department living up to the lofty standards it professes. This search is about doing the right thing.

The Seebergs are a family steeped in Notre Dame lineage. Buck Shaw, Lizzy's father's great-uncle, played football at Notre Dame with George Gipp. He was a finalist for the head coaching job in 1941 when Frank Leahy took it.

Officials treated them like they were nosy interlopers.

The school has made clear that the university's president, the Rev. John Jenkins, is not available to meet with the Seebergs. After the family's attorney sent multiple letters to Notre Dame, the Rev. Thomas Doyle, vice president for student affairs, responded that he was refusing to read the letter or forward it on to Jenkins.

The president's inner circle put up a bureaucratic wall, one Kelly contributed to in his first year on campus, brick by brick, "process" by "process." The Seebergs have been kept at arm's length for months by a place they had embraced for generations.

Two days after the alleged Aug. 31 attack, Lizzy forwarded a text message from the phone of the player's friend. "Don't do anything you would regret," the text said. "Messing with notre dame football is a bad idea." On Sept. 9, a Notre Dame Police detective first attempted to talk to the player. Unsuccessful, police waited another four days to try again. Finally, on Sept. 15 — five days after Lizzy took her life — police reached a player practicing and attending class on their campus.

Fifteen days to find the most popular kind of student at Notre Dame: a football player.

Kelly repeated himself Friday. He is proud of the university process, even while he looks silly defending it.

The sad part is the inaction of the university made a punk's text prescient.

It's sadder still that two women who have messed with Notre Dame football in the past weren't surprised by these latest reports. Not at all.

Each has accused Notre Dame football players of sexual assault — one in 1994, the other in 2002. They reached out after reading about Seeberg's story.

"It took me back," said Jennifer Porter-Tinsley, who in 1994 accused two players of assault. "I could relate to the helplessness Lizzy felt. I was asked if I really thought anybody would side with me because of the popularity and power of the football program."

Both of these women are now attorneys. Both said they were driven by their disenchantment with a university process they still believe empowers football players to mistreat women.

Is that the process Brian Kelly is talking about?

If I were one of the 49 members of the Notre Dame Board of Trustees, the school's processes — from the cold secrecy of the Seeberg case to the calculated approach in the aftermath of the tragedy involving student videographer Declan Sullivan — must be examined, and not just because of the specter of the U.S. Department of Education's preliminary inquiries into the school.

This can't be what Notre Dame strives to be.

Integrity is the word stuck in Kelly's mind. Indignity is what comes to mine

They can't go bankrupt soon enough.
 
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TerryTate

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Replaced your link with the text. Don't give that douchebag the hits.
 

IrishinSyria

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More Tribune slander

TT was right to remove the link, se Dev's post for article.


They can't go bankrupt soon enough.

Usually, articles bad mouthing ND don't bother me. I shrug, I laugh, I understand. I hate the Yankees and the Cowboys, people hate ND. Understood.

These articles are starting to make me see red. The lack of perspective is what really gets me. Based on the evidence we have, I can tell the story in three headlines:

1) Football player touches girl's breast, decides to stop.

2) Freshman sends stupid text message. Threatening or attempt to be helpful? Nobody knows.

3) Girl with history of depression overdoses on anti-depressants, dies.


That's the story. Has any one of the Tribune or blog reporters looked into SOP for investigating claims of sexual assault at American universities? Has anyone shown that the football player knew he was "assaulting" the girl? Has anyone shown that ND has enough influence over the DA and the local police to strong arm them into a cover-up? Or that ND would even try to cover something like this up?

NO! Anything beyond my three headlines is pure conjecture or worse--- malicious BS. Articles about ND sell, especially when they're controversial. Remember that ESPN reporter? Doesn't he look good now? He looked into the story and decided there wasn't one. If only the Tribune held itself to the same journalistic standards that ESPN does...
 
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