The Latest article from SBT on Elizabeth Seeberg

k1ssme1m1r1sh

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It seems as if this investigation isn't moving as "fast" as the parents would like, and unfortunately, sexual assault cases dont. There was a man just convicted in Cass County MI to 25-40 yrs for raping his 12 yr old step daughter, and it took 4 years. There as DNA evidence which lead to the jusry conviction. But it takes a long time.

The Chicago Tribune and ESPN writers who have written articles seem to be on the bias mentioning the text about not messing with ND football. Whether she was at ND or IU or UM, this would still take time, the fact that she committed suicide makes it take longer.

As a parent I would want to see justice served like anyone else, but I don't believe the ball was dropped, I believe she gave conflicting statements to police, some reports say yes, she was "raped" others say her own typed report on her laptop states there was no penetration. So how do you find out? Bottom line is, DNA doesn't lie.
 

Irish Houstonian

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So they proved there was no phone communication prior to the "assault" by looking at phone records? I'll take your word on that, but that's hilarious if they left out that detail intentionally.

Basically, she alleged that she and the alleged assailant were in the room with another couple, when the two men began texting each other, immediately after which the other man decided to leave with his girlfriend. The insinuation is that this was a sort-of conspiracy to get the assailant alone in the room with the victim. Phone records show the two men were texting on their phones during this time -- just not with each other.
 

dre1919

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I think any way you look at this situation, there are no winners. Notre Dame doesn't want this type of activity to occur on campus and then have thrust into their faces. Ms. Seeberg didn't want the situation that transpired, whatever it was, to play out as it did. The player involved didn't want to become an alleged sexual attacker, and Mr. Seeberg didn't want to have his daughter potentially violated or dead. But the problem is, some or all of these things did happen and so now we as society are left to clean up the mess.

So what's to gain here? Ms. Seeberg is still dead. Notre Dame is still embarrassed. Mr. Seeberg is still grieving over the loss of a daughter and the player may or may not be guilty and may or may not get punished. I'm not condoning the activity at all by the player...nor am I saying that the investigation should stop or that the player should be let off the hook. I am simply saying that the investigation should be done thoroughly and carefully, even if it means retreading over worn ground, until the truth is uncovered. Who cares what media outlet thinks they are entitled to or how long it takes? The truth is what matters...not the "story" or "scoop" for the papers.

If the player is guilty, punish him according to the law in place and move on. There is no need to smear Notre Dame nor the football program. From the facts presented, it doesn't appear either did anything wrong as it relates to the incident itself (neither entity endorsed the activity). Were there mistakes made in the investigation by Notre Dame's PD? Maybe. If so, correct them and finish out the case, then take steps to make sure those mistakes aren't made again.

But, the problem here is, Ms. Seeberg's untimely passing. It's obvious that she had other mental health or emotional issues as most women who are exposed to sexual assault do not commit suicide, and we don't even know for sure yet there was a sexual assault. If you have the mindset, mental and intestinal fortitude to carry out ending your life, you have other serious mental and emotional issues that require help despite recent events. It's not something that most people just arrive at as a decision lightly.

So, I feel like, there is nothing for anyone to gain here. Notre Dame cannot get back the embarrassment of having this happen and possibly botching the investigation. Ms. Seeberg cannot get her life back. Mr. Seeberg cannot get his daughter back. Should he get justice for his daughter? Hell yes! But what is that, really? His daughter is dead. How will anything the courts do to the alleged player ever make that better? And the player? Does he get disciplined? Maybe. Even so, will it be as harsh as another person losing their life? Not at all.

So, unfortunately, there are no winners here. Even if Notre Dame made the Seeberg's rich for the universities' supposed negligence, and for the loss of their daughter, it's still only money. Money cannot replace a child (I know, I have two). It's an ugly and unfortunate situation to have happen, but the real tragedy here is that Ms. Seeberg took her life. There was no reason for that at all, and that is the worst part of the story. So let the investigation go on at a proper pace and let the fact come to light. I sincerely doubt Notre Dame has anything to hide, why would they? It would be hard to ague they are truly at fault over a situation that obviously was out of their control.
 

IrishinSyria

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I'm trying really hard not to let my ND fandom skew my vision of this case. My heart goes out to her family. But still, it seems that the University is handling this the right way and is getting hammered for it. Here's why.

A) Absolute worst case scenario: a ND football player touched her breasts without her consent. That, according to all the evidence, is the worst thing that happened. Nobody is responsible for her death, nobody raped her. Without the suicide, breast touching is a very hard thing for me to get worked up about especially because...

B) The player allegedly stopped when he "received a text message." Does that really sound like someone in the middle of a sexual assault? He's driven mad with lust but then oooooo... my phone is ringing!

I will say this though: the kid who sent her the semi-threatening text message is an idiot. It's not "you don't mess with ND football" it should be either "the kid didn't assault you, don't screw up his life" or "the kid did assault you, he doesn't deserve to ever put on a gold helmet so don't worry about ND football, just make sure he really assaulted you and it wasn't a misunderstanding."
 
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tommyIRISH23

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I'm trying really hard not to let my ND fandom skew my vision of this case. My heart goes out to her family, even if I suspect that the way they raised their daughter played a role in her emotional problems. But still, it seems that the University is handling this the right way and is getting hammered for it. Here's why.

A) Absolute worst case scenario: a ND football player touched her breasts without her consent. That, according to all the evidence, is the worst thing that happened. Nobody is responsible for her death, nobody raped her. Without the suicide, breast touching is a very hard thing for me to get worked up about especially because...

B) The player allegedly stopped when he "received a text message." Does that really sound like someone in the middle of a sexual assault? He's driven mad with lust but then oooooo... my phone is ringing!

I will say this though: the kid who sent her the semi-threatening text message is an idiot. It's not "you don't mess with ND football" it should be either "the kid didn't assault you, don't screw up his life" or "the kid did assault you, he doesn't deserve to ever put on a gold helmet so don't worry about ND football, just make sure he really assaulted you and it wasn't a misunderstanding."

It's just a mess that is going to linger until its blown over. Lizzy's family isn't going to let it go, and there doesn't seem to be enough evidence to charge anyone.
 

devolg

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Dvorak said Seeberg alleged that the player touched her breasts, which prosecutors were investigating as a potential sexual battery charge

I don't mean to sound insensitive but THIS is what all the fuss was over?
 

irish1958

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It is my understanding that the Notre Dame campus police force is a legal, fully empowered police force. They have the duty and every right to investigate any reports of a possible crime in their jurisdiction.
Why is the assumption made that they are incompetent?
And therefore their investigation is therefore a cover-up?
Is there any proof of this?
 

k1ssme1m1r1sh

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Please see my thread "Press release from michael dvorak st joe co prosecutor" No charges are being filed in this matter, it is considered closed, however, the presser sheds some light on the allegations.
 

tommyIRISH23

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It is my understanding that the Notre Dame campus police force is a legal, fully empowered police force. They have the duty and every right to investigate any reports of a possible crime in their jurisdiction.
Why is the assumption made that they are incompetent?
And therefore their investigation is therefore a cover-up?
Is there any proof of this?

It's a type of delegation system. For instance, town X is a fully empowered police force, but a sexual assault happens. They take the initial reports then file them with the Pros Office. Detectives from town X and the Pros Office work together to solve the case. All felony/indictable criminal activity is filed with the state (the county) and tried in the states court (county pros. office). Town X does not investigate, send to grand jury, and hold trial for anything above a classified misdemeanor offense. In toher words, you are not going to go to your local town court house and see a murder trial, sexual assault trial, or arson trial. They get waved up to the states branch (county pros. office/detectives).

I am assuming that because of the reports saying "NDPD didnt refer the case to the pros office, no wait..they did". I could be wrong. I do not know all the facts. It's just unsettling that there was finger pointing, and it took 3 months to investigate phone records.

It's a moot point now, the pros. office said the aren't charging anyone.
 

IrishLax

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It is my understanding that the Notre Dame campus police force is a legal, fully empowered police force. They have the duty and every right to investigate any reports of a possible crime in their jurisdiction.
Why is the assumption made that they are incompetent?
And therefore their investigation is therefore a cover-up?
Is there any proof of this?

Exactly. And there is ZERO evidence that they didn't handle everything by the book. Glad the prosecutor is acting responsibly. This case has no standing and they realize it. You struggle to prove sexual assault and anyone who would try to establish a causal link between a boob grab and an OD would get laughed out of court.
 

phgreek

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The girls issues do not matter.

...ahh I see, so the mental state of a person does not matter when evaluating their conduct as a consideration in someone else's defense...only when said persons conduct is considered a crime against another person...then of course we need to look at all of that as part of their defense...wait a minute...that seems...well...hypocritical.

Obviously I disagree with the assertion that her mental state does not matter...her issues do matter, and despite the sensativity, or my apparent lack thereof, I'll say it... these mental issues may indeed be core to what transpired, her interpretation of events in real time, and how she processed events after the fact. Maybe questions should have been asked immediately...but then I'm not sure there isn't something in the NDSPD report that explains why they didn't do things as you think they should have...

I guess we'll have to wait for it to all come out on WikiLeaks...then we'll know...:(
 

IrishinSyria

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http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2...0-16095122.pdf

Follow this link. It's over. No criminal charges will be pursued, and it gives the true allegations from the victim, and not the Chicago Tribune.

Saying "it's over" is kind of like saying "the war's over in Iraq and we won." Wishful thinking. There's still potential civil charges, the NCAA could get involved, and the University could buckle under the pressure and take disciplinary measures against the 2 students involved. Now that the Chicago Tribune has put this on their front page, other media outlets are going to smell the scent of a story and jump on it, they'll be talking about it on PTI, etc...

In all fairness though, at least the DA doesn't see this as as career maker like they Duke guy did.
 

phgreek

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http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2...0-16095122.pdf

Follow this link. It's over. No criminal charges will be pursued, and it gives the true allegations from the victim, and not the Chicago Tribune.

...saw it earlier today...doubt its over...but at least the criminal side is...the civil side, and the ND persecution will continue based on assertions the investigation was botched and there is a conspiracy...

BTW...If it turns out there was a little keystone cops going on..then yea, blast away...but until that is confirmed...I think its important to continue to poke holes in poor logic and assertion.

Thanks for the posts today...
 

tommyIRISH23

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...ahh I see, so the mental state of a person does not matter when evaluating their conduct as a consideration in someone else's defense...only when said persons conduct is considered a crime against another person...then of course we need to look at all of that as part of their defense...wait a minute...that seems...well...hypocritical.

Obviously I disagree with the assertion that her mental state does not matter...her issues do matter, and despite the sensativity, or my apparent lack thereof, I'll say it... these mental issues may indeed be core to what transpired, her interpretation of events in real time, and how she processed events after the fact. Maybe questions should have been asked immediately...but then I'm not sure there isn't something in the NDSPD report that explains why they didn't do things as you think they should have...

I guess we'll have to wait for it to all come out on WikiLeaks...then we'll know...:(


I'm sorry, I should have been more clear with my thought. How can the prosecution/defense prove that her "issues" had anything to do with her reporting of the assault. Do all people whom are suicidal/depressed conjure up false sexual assault allegations? Why would her "issues" cause her to report the assault?

You're right, it may have been at the core of the situation? Or it may have been a very vulnerable and troubled girl was a victim? We don't know, and will never know because, as far as i know, a mental health professional did not do an evaluation on her( not a college rape counselor) to figure her motives, reasoning, how she felt...a million questions that were not answered, and can't be, because Lizzy is not here.

There just seems to be a ton of gray area. I'd hate for Lizzy to be labeled as a wacko, and a story-teller who made up the situation for attention, just as much as I would hate for ND to be ran through hell for "conspiring a cover up". Neither parties deserve that reputation.

This is just all and all a terrible situation. Sexual Assaults are so hard to prove/investigate let alone when involving a mentally ill person whom is dead because of suicide. It's just terrible.
 

IrishLax

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Saying "it's over" is kind of like saying "the war's over in Iraq and we won." Wishful thinking. There's still potential civil charges, the NCAA could get involved, and the University could buckle under the pressure and take disciplinary measures against the 2 students involved. Now that the Chicago Tribune has put this on their front page, other media outlets are going to smell the scent of a story and jump on it, they'll be talking about it on PTI, etc...

In all fairness though, at least the DA doesn't see this as as career maker like they Duke guy did.

Yup. Whitfong or whatever that crook's name was is at least out of a job, disbarred and bankrupt thanks to his actions.

I seriously doubt the NCAA or school will do anything, however, I would expect a civil lawsuit or settlement.
 

Irish Houstonian

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I'm sorry, I should have been more clear with my thought. How can the prosecution/defense prove that her "issues" had anything to do with her reporting of the assault. Do all people whom are suicidal/depressed conjure up false sexual assault allegations? Why would her "issues" cause her to report the assault?

If you accept that, all other things being equal, a mentally-ill person is more likely to misreport facts than a "sane" person -- either by a greater propensity for lying or misperception of reality -- then her mental state is relevant as to whether her recollection of the event is accurate.
 

IrishLax

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Just one more post on this topic before I finally let it go.

I am so glad ND and the DA's office did not bend to bull**** media pressure and make a bunch of stupid decisions. After watching the Duke scandal as a senior in high school... where 3 players and a coach had their lives ruined and a bunch of other kids lost a championship caliber season for no reason... I've always been very jaded towards "the system."

The system allows politicians (ultimately, that is what a DA is) and public figures to toy with people's lives regardless of the facts. The media no longer has any journalistic integrity and there are no consequences for printing half-truths or unsubstantiated claims. And once you're convicted in the "court" of public opinion, that's almost as bad or sometimes worse than being convicted in a legal one.

Shame on the Tribune, shame on writers going to any length to keep their jobs and props to Notre Dame and the St. Joseph's County officials for taking the time to do this right. Regardless of the outcome, the important thing is that you follow procedures, and as far as I can tell... no matter how badly the Tribune wants there to be a "cover up".... everything was handled correctly.

Now let's recognize this for what it was: a largely unavoidable tragedy. Hindsight is always 20/20, but even in hindsight this girl was afforded counseling and had deep seeded depression and anxiety issues she struggled with. I don't think you can blame anyone for what happened. God bless the Seebergs, I cannot imagine their loss and I hope I never will, but there is no reason that someone always has to "pay" for a tragedy.

That is all. Go Irish, Beat Miami.
 

phgreek

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I'm sorry, I should have been more clear with my thought. How can the prosecution/defense prove that her "issues" had anything to do with her reporting of the assault. Do all people whom are suicidal/depressed conjure up false sexual assault allegations? Why would her "issues" cause her to report the assault? .

...I understand what you are saying...don't think anyone sees it as a strong causal realtionship like if you have mental issues, you neccessarily conjure up stories. However, that fact must be considered in the scheme of the circumstances...I'm not saying her claims should be dismissed sumarily, but I'm not saying anyone gets to wipe the mental illness from consideration either.

You're right, it may have been at the core of the situation? Or it may have been a very vulnerable and troubled girl was a victim? We don't know, and will never know because, as far as i know, a mental health professional did not do an evaluation on her( not a college rape counselor) to figure her motives, reasoning, how she felt...a million questions that were not answered, and can't be, because Lizzy is not here..

Agreed...

There just seems to be a ton of gray area. I'd hate for Lizzy to be labeled as a wacko, and a story-teller who made up the situation for attention, just as much as I would hate for ND to be ran through hell for "conspiring a cover up". Neither parties deserve that reputation.

Agreed, and while appearing insensative and an ND "homer" in this discussion...trust me, I ache for Lizzy's dad...what he found was his daughter was in pain, and he is angry...paternal insticts fuel a detrmination in action that is unmatched...some of us would not be so considerate of the law or process were we in his shoes, and still looking for answers...his pressing the issue is expected...those enabling/encouraging him to chase futile paths are cruel and criminal in my mind.

This is just all and all a terrible situation. Sexual Assaults are so hard to prove/investigate let alone when involving a mentally ill person whom is dead because of suicide. It's just terrible.

Agreed...
 

dskoo65

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If you accept that, all other things being equal, a mentally-ill person is more likely to misreport facts than a "sane" person -- either by a greater propensity for lying or misperception of reality -- then her mental state is relevant as to whether her recollection of the event is accurate.

wow. i had to read this twice to make sure someone actually wrote this.

this young woman suffered with depression and anxiety. i have worked with people who suffer from one or both of these thing most of my life. i can assure you that people with this battle DO NOT have a propensity for lying or misrepresenting reality. if we were talking about schizophrenia, that assertion would have some merit.

She sought assistance the next morning from Belles Against Violence, a St. Mary's program that helps victims of sex crimes and whose name pays tribute to the nickname for the all-female student population. She also went to a hospital, where she reported the alleged attack to authorities and consented to a DNA evidence kit.

people suffering from depression and anxiety also dont normally have the motivation to go through that much trouble for much of anything.

it appears to me that this girls reputation has taken the biggest beating and the benefit of the doubt certainly does not fall in her direction. i have a feeling if she were still with us, this all may have turned out differently.


hopefully BK has talked to his players and impressed upon them that taking a girl that you barely know (i believe this girl had only been on campus a few days at the time of the incident) into your room and doing anything of a sexual nature isnt the kind of thing that makes the Notre Dame student athlete appear very upstanding.
 

Jerry

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wow. i had to read this twice to make sure someone actually wrote this.

this young woman suffered with depression and anxiety. i have worked with people who suffer from one or both of these thing most of my life. i can assure you that people with this battle DO NOT have a propensity for lying or misrepresenting reality. if we were talking about schizophrenia, that assertion would have some merit.

She sought assistance the next morning from Belles Against Violence, a St. Mary's program that helps victims of sex crimes and whose name pays tribute to the nickname for the all-female student population. She also went to a hospital, where she reported the alleged attack to authorities and consented to a DNA evidence kit.

people suffering from depression and anxiety also dont normally have the motivation to go through that much trouble for much of anything.

it appears to me that this girls reputation has taken the biggest beating and the benefit of the doubt certainly does not fall in her direction. i have a feeling if she were still with us, this all may have turned out differently.


hopefully BK has talked to his players and impressed upon them that taking a girl that you barely know (i believe this girl had only been on campus a few days at the time of the incident) into your room and doing anything of a sexual nature isnt the kind of thing that makes the Notre Dame student athlete appear very upstanding.

I think the general consensus (save a few ND message boards) is that this poor girl did everything right and ND covered up a sexual assualt by a football player which directly led to her suicide. This seems to be the slant by every media outlet (Chicago Trib, Sun Times, Espn, The Score Radio, ect). The only place where her reputation seems to have taken a beating is on a few ND message boards.

I agree that this case would have turned out differently if she was still alive. It would have been a case against a player accused of fondling a girls breasts. And the player may or may not have been kicked off the team and or expelled. Instead it has been a media conviction of ND covering up a potential "rape" which led to a suicide.
 

IrishLax

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I think the general consensus (save a few ND message boards) is that this poor girl did everything right and ND covered up a sexual assualt by a football player which directly led to her suicide. This seems to be the slant by every media outlet (Chicago Trib, Sun Times, Espn, The Score Radio, ect). The only place where her reputation seems to have taken a beating is on a few ND message boards.

I agree that this case would have turned out differently if she was still alive. It would have been a case against a player accused of fondling a girls breasts. And the player may or may not have been kicked off the team and or expelled. Instead it has been a media conviction of ND covering up a potential "rape" which led to a suicide.

Which is the most ludicrous logic I've ever heard. What if ND lynched the player the night of the incident... are you telling me she'd be alive now? Isn't the whole "reason" she killed herself that she felt "outcast" by what happened?

So the media wants us to believe that if ND had expelled the player and the DA had pressed charges for a boob grab that she would have felt less "outcast" then when no one was making a big deal out of it and she was receiving private counseling?

Holy hell the masses are stupid. No one stops for a second to really think things through.
 

IrishLax

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Gah I told myself I wasn't going to post anymore in this thread :(
 

Jerry

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Which is the most ludicrous logic I've ever heard. What if ND lynched the player the night of the incident... are you telling me she'd be alive now? Isn't the whole "reason" she killed herself that she felt "outcast" by what happened?

So the media wants us to believe that if ND had expelled the player and the DA had pressed charges for a boob grab that she would have felt less "outcast" then when no one was making a big deal out of it and she was receiving private counseling?

Holy hell the masses are stupid. No one stops for a second to really think things through.

I can't tell you how many of the "comments" on the Tribune, ESPN, ect articles are from people who clearly haven't read the entire article. People saying that the ND player sent the text message or that because she submitted to a rape kit she had to have been raped. Unbelievable to me that somebody would comment on an article but not read the actual article??????
 

Irish Houstonian

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wow. i had to read this twice to make sure someone actually wrote this...i can assure you that people with this battle DO NOT have a propensity for lying or misrepresenting reality.

It's surprising how much you misunderstood what I wrote, considering you read it twice. Perhaps you should read things three times. The only people with a "propensity for lying" are, by definition, sociopaths. What makes her condition relevant to the legal inquiry is whether, all other things being equal, a person with her condition is more likely to misreport events than someone without her condition. Nobody will ever really know what her "propensity for lying" was.
 

dskoo65

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It's surprising how much you misunderstood what I wrote, considering you read it twice. Perhaps you should read things three times. The only people with a "propensity for lying" are, by definition, sociopaths. What makes her condition relevant to the legal inquiry is whether, all other things being equal, a person with her condition is more likely to misreport events than someone without her condition. Nobody will ever really know what her "propensity for lying" was.

"If you accept that, all other things being equal, a mentally-ill person is more likely to misreport facts than a "sane" person"

this is how your premise started. it is faulty from the get go. you cant be trying to say you were saying all this in a general sense and not attributing said mental illness to Lizzy Seeburg. mental illness is an awfully broad term. the answer is no, a person with her "condition" is not more likely to misreport events....thus her condition would not be relevant as it pertains to the reporting of events.

her condition is, however, most certainly attributable to the way she chose to handle whatever may have happend to her.
 

MeanGreen

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This is a very sad incident. Having dealt with relatives with depression and anxiety it is a slippery slope. Add to that mix the teenage years of lack of confidence, peer pressure, and acceptance issues it is a danger mix. For some of these people perception is reality. With most of the meds for these conditions adding alcohol is not a good thing and we all know that most college parties have alcohol readily available. Every kid want to fit in so the grab a drink or two. I feel bad for her parents and family, especially at this time of year. None of us know what happened in the room, just her and the player. In ND's favor, we have seen players suspend or expelled for far far less crimes than sexual assault or rape. I highly doubt they would cover this up, for any player heisman candidate, star, or scrub. I believe in the 70's the expelled one of the Browner brothers for just having a girl in his room. They may have sought legal counsel immediately because this came out at the time of the Sullivan incident. Therefor their hands may have been tied from the start. I hope and pray that they handle both these situation in the manner that has made ND a model institution. Media outlets of any type will use this to their advantage and spin it the best way to profit from it. They will not care what the do to the family or ND.
 
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