Hamstring Issue

[irish1958]

What is the relationship between "perfect conditioning" and hamstring pulls? It appears to me that the pulled hamstring is becoming a common injury. Is this caused by the conditioning protocols that emphasize the squat and lower body explosiveness? At what point does the loss of an individual for a few games or the season become more of a problem than the benefit gained from the extra power?
I can see where it is very important in the lines and running backs to have maximum power, but how does this help the rest of the team? Is it important to have your wide receivers maximumly strong? And then lose playing time or effectiveness?
It appears that hamstring injuries are significantly increased this year. I don't know that statistics for ND nor how it compares to previous years. I note that for the Indy Colts that
five of their players (about 10%) are battling hamstrings and have missed a lot of playing time for this

 

[IrishLax]

There is basically no correlation. A study was done a couple years ago when Yankees players all got hammy injuries and they fried their strength and conditioning coach. Someone did a correlative study between incidence of hamstring injuries over time and they're basically just a random event.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I was just thinking about the same sorts of things. Now I am not any kind of expert, but I reviewed material about sprains and strains. When you add it up, between the two, we have had above 7% of our players affected to some degree this year.

One of the common things I have found is that often times if there is an imbalance between the strength of the flexor and extensor, (or any opposing muscle groups), of a limb, one, (the weaker muscle group) or the ligaments of a joint seem to be more susceptible to injury. This is a bit of a controversial hypothesis, but the University of Cincinnati is doing extensive work with female athletes, whom those conducting the research seem to think operate as a group using overly developed quads, instead of a balance between quads and hamstrings, resulting in a significantly higher number of knee and hamstring injuries.

Also, more power and weight (raw bulk) put more stress on body tissues, creating a greater possibility of strains and sprains. In addition, some athlete’s anatomy makes them more prone to certain injuries. If I had to hypothesize, I would look along the lines of the startup of this conditioning program at Central Michigan, and U of C. I would want to know if there was any kind of increase in these injuries in the first year of implementation of the program. That may be somewhat hard to determine, because I would bet that overall injuries were down in either program, as they probably are at Notre Dame.

If we can assume one thing, it is that the overall conditioning at Notre Dame was lacking, as much any with major college athletic program. You don’t need to go farther than looking at how last year’s team faded in the fourth quarter, and this years team doesn’t. Success stories like Chris Stewart also show the long term potential of the program. Also, does it seem that the few months Paul Longo has had to work with the team is long enough to reach any kind of total conditioning goal? Hopefully, this is just a first year anomaly that will fade as the athlete’s progress further toward the goal of total conditioning.

 

[phgreek]

I was just thinking about the same sorts of things. Now I am not any kind of expert, but I reviewed material about sprains and strains. When you add it up, between the two, we have had above 7% of our players affected to some degree this year.

One of the common things I have found is that often times if there is an imbalance between the strength of the flexor and extensor, (or any opposing muscle groups), of a limb, one, (the weaker muscle group) or the ligaments of a joint seem to be more susceptible to injury. This is a bit of a controversial hypothesis, but the University of Cincinnati is doing extensive work with female athletes, whom those conducting the research seem to think operate as a group using overly developed quads, instead of a balance between quads and hamstrings, resulting in a significantly higher number of knee and hamstring injuries.

Also, more power and weight (raw bulk) put more stress on body tissues, creating a greater possibility of strains and sprains. In addition, some athlete’s anatomy makes them more prone to certain injuries. If I had to hypothesize, I would look along the lines of the startup of this conditioning program at Central Michigan, and U of C. I would want to know if there was any kind of increase in these injuries in the first year of implementation of the program. That may be somewhat hard to determine, because I would bet that overall injuries were down in either program, as they probably are at Notre Dame.

If we can assume one thing, it is that the overall conditioning at Notre Dame was lacking, as much any with major college athletic program. You don’t need to go farther than looking at how last year’s team faded in the fourth quarter, and this years team doesn’t. Success stories like Chris Stewart also show the long term potential of the program. Also, does it seem that the few months Paul Longo has had to work with the team is long enough to reach any kind of total conditioning goal? Hopefully, this is just a first year anomaly that will fade as the athlete’s progress further toward the goal of total conditioning.

This is a difficult discussion. It is the convergence of genetics and training. While the program targets widespread programmatic benefits, there will be guys who don't benefit as much, or even those who get hurt. I suspect it takes some time for the coach to figure things out and adjust the regimen for certain guys. It also requires these guys to be forthcoming with old injuries or known weaknesses...and whats the likelyhood of that?

As in all things when you build a program...Time.

 

[Jerry]

I'm going to go ahead and dumb this down. I think it's all about stretching. Playing sports and being around sports my whole life I don't think that 90 % of athletes warm up and or stretch correctly. When you're younger and still growing your body is very resilient. But when you stop growing around 20/21 you have to take care of your body more. Whether it's sprinting too quick on cold legs or throwing a baseball too hard when not warmed up I've seen countless kids injure themselves by not taking the proper 10 or 15 minutes to stretch out and get loose.

I don't know what Rudolph and Floyd's pregame or pre practice routines are? But it wouldn't surprise me if ND's stretching is very basic and possibly not pushing some athletes to get their legs (hamstrings) properly warmed up.

 

[fitz_bu47]

Definitely a combo of a lot of things, but from my experience w/ my patients and in school, I would blame a combo of muscle imbalances like bogtrotter was saying, and warm up issues as Jerry said. A lot of these "kids" will not warm up properly, and try to play through "tweaks" and if there is an area not to mess w/ it is definitely the hammy's. You can attribute plenty to random stuff like slipping on bad turf, etc. too, but I have also noticed a ton of hamstring and head injuries this football season.

 

[tko]

where is mbeckha?

 

[lookingdeadred]

That's harsh

That's harsh

Fire the guy maybe, but wow, they fried him? Then again it's the Yankees.

A study was done a couple years ago when Yankees players all got hammy injuries and they fried their strength and conditioning coach.

 

[IrishLax]

Fire the guy maybe, but wow, they fried him? Then again it's the Yankees.

haha early morning typo...

Basically the study concluded that stretching helps some but not as much as people think and that pulled muscles are basically a random event when considered on a macro scale.

However, I also know of another study that shows how athletes with higher body fat are less prone to joint/tendon injuries than people with less body fat. While the study was correlative and there were a lot of holes, the conclusion they tried to draw was that fat cells are crucial as shock absorbers to joints and tendons. I've also heard something similar from my orthopedic surgeon.

 

[irish1958]

Obliviously, nobody knows how to prevent these injuries or they wouldn't happen.
Everybody agrees that last year's team wasn't in great physical shape, either from a strength or an endurance standpoint.
The question I have is this: are muscle injuries greater this year than the past five years?
If so, is it due to (or at least contributed to) by our conditioning program.
If it is, should we back off some on those athletes for whom additional strength doesn't appear to offer any great benefit.
To my knowledge, the only controlled study that offered a reduction in hamstring injuries was "balance" training in female soccer players (which probably acted by improving core muscle strength).
There are a lot of suggestions, but there doesn't appear to be much or any data to substantiate them.
Just as concussions appear to be increased (?due to the face mask making the attacker more reckless??) so hamstring injuries appear to be more common. I have no data to prove this, but it appears to be the case.
Both could be the result of bigger, stronger, faster players and the emphasis on the "big" hit.
I suspect that if we had the defensive players play without an helmet, concussions would dramatically decrease.
I have no data on any of these points, I was just wondering if we could do something to reduce the injuries and lost playing time of some of out best players.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Obliviously, nobody knows how to prevent these injuries or they wouldn't happen.
Everybody agrees that last year's team wasn't in great physical shape, either from a strength or an endurance standpoint.
The question I have is this: are muscle injuries greater this year than the past five years?
If so, is it due to (or at least contributed to) by our conditioning program.
If it is, should we back off some on those athletes for whom additional strength doesn't appear to offer any great benefit.
To my knowledge, the only controlled study that offered a reduction in hamstring injuries was "balance" training in female soccer players (which probably acted by improving core muscle strength).
There are a lot of suggestions, but there doesn't appear to be much or any data to substantiate them.
Just as concussions appear to be increased (?due to the face mask making the attacker more reckless??) so hamstring injuries appear to be more common. I have no data to prove this, but it appears to be the case.
Both could be the result of bigger, stronger, faster players and the emphasis on the "big" hit.
I suspect that if we had the defensive players play without an helmet, concussions would dramatically decrease.
I have no data on any of these points, I was just wondering if we could do something to reduce the injuries and lost playing time of some of out best players.

I think the Trotter and LAX kind of hit the nail on the head. I swear we must have read exact same articles and studies. Some major contributors to hamstring pulls, from what I have read, and experienced as an athlete and coach, is imbalance in leg strength and improper warming up. I have read many mixed reviews about stretching.

Personally, when I was about a soph or jr in high school, I stepped off the bleachers and onto the field "cold" and started stretching. Overstretching. I went beyond the point of initial tension and forced it, thinking that would be a better stretch. Well, my hamstring snapped. I kind of wince when I see teams stretching with partners. That can lead to overstretching. Not saying that's a definite, but certainly a possibility. Some studies even indicate stretching could be saved for after the workout.

While coaching, we developed a program of lifting which stressed balance, as was mentioned above. So if you did bench, the opposite for balance would be rows (or whatever you want to call it.) If you did leg extension, the opposite would be hamstring curls. Balance was the key. Also, we never stretched while cold. Our track team would actually jog a mile before stretching, and never with a partner. They were told to reach the point of tension only, and hold for a certain count. Many researchers say it is more important to warm the muscles before activity than it is to stretch. Our track workouts were one hour of warmup and warmup drills. The actual workout was maybe a half hour.
We had ZERO, count 'em, ZERO pulled hamstrings for years, I think as a result of proper warmup.

Football is a different beast however. You simply cannot afford one hour out of practice for warmup, so it seems very important to stress balanced training in the weightroom. I can see why Rudolph pulled his hammy, because he was running a track meet every game, while his training was probably more geared to power bursts. That's just my guess.

Either way, there are tons of studies out there, but I agree with the Trotter and LAX's posts.

This opinion is subject to change. Check for updates later. lol.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Yea, people seem to be on the mark here. As for stretching before vs. stretching after, for hockey the rule of thumb was always dynamic warm-ups before, stretch after. Stretching with your muscles cold doesn't help at all and can even limit your explosiveness and lead to injuries. However, college athletes are busy and almost never have the time to get a good dynamic warm-up in before every practice.

I've also read that football trainers tend to discourage things like yoga, because they can take away from explosiveness.

Irishlax, do you have a link to the first study you mentioned? Did they only look at baseball players, or did they look at other athletes as well?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

This opinion is subject to change. Check for updates later. lol.

Yes, read the fine print!

 

[IrishLax]

Yea, people seem to be on the mark here. As for stretching before vs. stretching after, for hockey the rule of thumb was always dynamic warm-ups before, stretch after. Stretching with your muscles cold doesn't help at all and can even limit your explosiveness and lead to injuries. However, college athletes are busy and almost never have the time to get a good dynamic warm-up in before every practice.

I've also read that football trainers tend to discourage things like yoga, because they can take away from explosiveness.

Irishlax, do you have a link to the first study you mentioned? Did they only look at baseball players, or did they look at other athletes as well?

Nah, it was a long time ago and I think it may have just looked at baseball players. It came out after After rash of injuries, Yankees fire conditioning coach - MLB - ESPN happened and I can't remember whether I saw it on ESPN or somewhere else. I will certainly look for it though tomorrow at work while I put off doing actual work

 

[Old Man Mike]

I once attended a one-day workshop on knee ligament tears where a guy from Marshall University reported on what seemed to me to be a good study of all this stuff, and what he said matches much of what Trotter, LAX, Neutered et al are saying. His main emphasis was muscle group imbalance [and as much of the study was on female basketball players and their rashes of ACLs he mentioned that the average female athlete has the opposite muscle group imbalance as the male--but both need looking into really before you even get started on the main big muscle building exercises]. He emphasized a testing regimen which he said could measure these imbalances, and a set of simple tests [with photography] wherein you could see the signs of the imbalances. Then he recommended building up "core strength" as a priority, rather than just slapping on the muscle fibre to the bigger "external" muscles. And yes, intelligent warm-up exercising too--not just heroic stretching.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some of this was beyond my ken, but his presentation combined with the video documentation made a lot of sense--his stats too. I'm boring you all with this because I believe that bio-sport-science IS coming close to getting a handle on this. I'd like to say one last thing: my brother is an upper level US Olympic Team weight-lifting coach. The relevance of that is he knows that many weight-lifting regimens used by college strength and conditioning coaches are mediocre at best---BUT you cannot tell them that. Strength coaches often have set-in-stone ways and will not listen to other experts or try new things [unless the word starts sweeping outwards that people like New England etc are doing it and are raving about results]. He's had several Houston sports teams visit his gym and be blown away, BUT THEY STILL WILL NOT CHANGE WHAT THEY DO. The point here is that some change in this esoteric mystery school is usually slow to happen.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

I once attended a one-day workshop on knee ligament tears where a guy from Marshall University reported on what seemed to me to be a good study of all this stuff, and what he said matches much of what Trotter, LAX, Neutered et al are saying. His main emphasis was muscle group imbalance [and as much of the study was on female basketball players and their rashes of ACLs he mentioned that the average female athlete has the opposite muscle group imbalance as the male--but both need looking into really before you even get started on the main big muscle building exercises]. He emphasized a testing regimen which he said could measure these imbalances, and a set of simple tests [with photography] wherein you could see the signs of the imbalances. Then he recommended building up "core strength" as a priority, rather than just slapping on the muscle fibre to the bigger "external" muscles. And yes, intelligent warm-up exercising too--not just heroic stretching.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some of this was beyond my ken, but his presentation combined with the video documentation made a lot of sense--his stats too. I'm boring you all with this because I believe that bio-sport-science IS coming close to getting a handle on this. I'd like to say one last thing: my brother is an upper level US Olympic Team weight-lifting coach. The relevance of that is he knows that many weight-lifting regimens used by college strength and conditioning coaches are mediocre at best---BUT you cannot tell them that. Strength coaches often have set-in-stone ways and will not listen to other experts or try new things [unless the word starts sweeping outwards that people like New England etc are doing it and are raving about results]. He's had several Houston sports teams visit his gym and be blown away, BUT THEY STILL WILL NOT CHANGE WHAT THEY DO. The point here is that some change in this esoteric mystery school is usually slow to happen.

Hardly boring Boss. Some of us nerds eat this stuff up.

Even without research, I have noticed many female basketball players and other sports seem abnormally high with the use of braces. I actually thought it was a proud badge of courage in their minds for them to finally earn their brace. lol.

You are dead on about many coaches already set in stone with their philosophy. Well, I'll just leave it at that...

We kid about the poster mbeckha. He actually raised some valid points, but he seemed to apply the new found paragraph he read about biomechanics incorrectly.

The only thing I know for sure is that I don't know anything at all.

 

[Old Man Mike]

To Neutered: I join you in my ignorance. Although I'm sure you're smarter than I on this [most of the other guys too]. I only posted as an amateur because I once was a half-baked human biology prof, so I thought I understood what the guy was saying. Hope I'm not polluting the knowledge biosphere. Please correct me guys.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

To Neutered: I join you in my ignorance. Although I'm sure you're smarter than I on this [most of the other guys too]. I only posted as an amateur because I once was a half-baked human biology prof, so I thought I understood what the guy was saying. Hope I'm not polluting the knowledge biosphere. Please correct me guys.

I hardly think you need correcting Boss.

 

[johnnykillz]

From what I've noticed when studying female physiques, balance seems productive to interest. I like the counterbalances more focused in the rear and front end.

Just gonna throw that out there. My dissertation if you will...

BOOM!

 

[TerryTate]

Rear end takes major precedence in my book. I like your style Johnny

 

[Bogtrotter07]

From what I've noticed when studying female physiques, balance seems productive to interest. I like the counterbalances more focused in the rear and front end.

Just gonna throw that out there. My dissertation if you will...

Now I'm confused! Wouldn't that be, "back there?" Isn't that the point?

 

[Old Man Mike]

Now you guys have finally gotten the right tone for writing about the girls--makes me dream of Gene Tierney, Maureen O'Hara, and Hedy Lamarr---oops! Forgot you guys don't know who any of them are...well, your loss. As to Johnny's dissertation---as an old academic I remember quite a lot has been written about the subject.

 

[tko]

old man mike, they didn't have hamstrings back when you played

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Now you guys have finally gotten the right tone for writing about the girls--makes me dream of Gene Tierney, Maureen O'Hara, and Hedy Lamarr---oops! Forgot you guys don't know who any of them are...well, your loss. As to Johnny's dissertation---as an old academic I remember quite a lot has been written about the subject.

I will counter your Gene Tierney http://www.kids-iq-tests.com/BIPOLAR/Gene-Tierney.jpg

with Jessica Biel http://images.zap2it.com/images/celeb-68168/jessica-biel-2.jpg

Butt, back on topic, concerning balance:

YouTube - Sir Mix-A-Lot - I like big butts ( Official Music Video )

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2ImZTwYwCug?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2ImZTwYwCug?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

 

[Old Man Mike]

To TKO: we actually did have hamstrings; we just never moved fast enough to notice them.