Our real problem is our EXPECTATIONS being skewed by Scouts and Rivals

[goldandblue]

I updated my original post above to include some info on QB's.

 

[WaveDomer]

How long is the ND cycle? It's been 22 years- that's one heck of a cycle for a supposed elite team. I'm all for parity. However, we're not even contenders. That's not parity. We are ND, of course we're not supposed to win a NC every year- but we are supposed to be relevant. We're not. When was the last time we were relevant? I don't mean ranked- we all know the ND points- I mean REALLY relevant? You have to go back pretty far. That's some cycle.

I guess 4 years ago is pretty far for some people. You say you don't think we're supposed to win an NC every year, but then don't give credit for being ranked or for a BCS bowl. That has happened recently. So what is it? Weis went to 2 BCS bowls. That isn't long ago. You say 22 years is the cycle. Well, that's the last NC. We've had really good teams beyond that year.

 

[tankjeep]

No.

Our problem is that we had inflated expectations for Kelly. We looked at his track record and actually thought he could turn the Charlie Weis disaster around in one year. It's going to take several years. We may not see any solid results until Kelly's fourth or fifth year, when his recruiting classes start to dominate the depth chart.

Weis did a TERRIBLE job here at Notre Dame. Kelly inherited a lazy, uninspired football team with atrocious fundamentals, poor strength and conditioning, and a load of unrealized potential.

well put. and i've changed my tune and realize i need to be more patient. cuz right now....we are not that good of a football team.

 

[dsotm]

I guess 4 years ago is pretty far for some people. You say you don't think we're supposed to win an NC every year, but then don't give credit for being ranked or for a BCS bowl. That has happened recently. So what is it? Weis went to 2 BCS bowls. That isn't long ago. You say 22 years is the cycle. Well, that's the last NC. We've had really good teams beyond that year.

Ok- we had decent teams. Isn't the point to win a National Championship? We don't have a conference championship to contend for- so what are we in it for- to have a good team, or to be National Champions?

Also, one of those BCS bowl nods was good, the other, was a ND wink.

 

[dsotm]

You noted that our problem was that Notre Dame didnt attract national recruits from the Florida, Texas, and California hotbeds. You brought up the NFL and then touched on COLLEGE recruiting. Re-read your own post. It made no sense. Your exact staement:
"Guess where those players are looking to play?"
The players in the NFL that have come from those three states have no always played for those 3 colleges. if you read the entire ESPN article, you may understand that. Where they are born and where they go to highschool and where they go to college are not always the same. Your post is very flawed and you clearly misunderstood the point of that ESPN article.

It wasn't a question. It's a fact. And it wasn't ESPN, it was a Rivals Article. (If it was ESPN linked- I concede- but not sure we're talking about the same article).

Any case, each of those 3 states have over 170 players from their state, currently playing in the NFL. Care to take a guess how many of those left those areas to play for ND? Not many. Actually, if you care to look, Wikipedia' Irish page has a decent summary of ND graduates playing in the NFL now. Look at those name and tell me what you think.

I don't know anyone can argue that USC, Texas, UCLA, Florida, Michigan, Miami, all put out more pro's, more long tenured pro's, and high caliber NFL talent than ND. Those players statistically come from those areas.

I didn't say ND did attract talent from those areas, I said they didn't attract HIGH LEVEL talent from those areas. That's what we're talking about here. Hight talent, real draft class talent that pans out in the long haul. We simply don't. If we did, WHERE ARE THEY???

 

[dre1919]

Speed is definitely part of the problem. Yet, it's just a part of the overall issue. Generally, the better players are bigger, fast, stronger, and we don't have 'em! We haven't had them, overall, in quite a while. The end is very far off, I'm afraid. The problem is once you realized you have a mediocre team on the field- it's too late. It takes years to fix, not a season. And, regrettably we can't get the players anymore to fix it.

I saw an article yesterday saying the most players in the NFL come from California, Florida, and Texas- in that order. And, I might add, by a large margin. The 4th state with the most players has half of the 3rd state. That means three of the Elite programs in the country don't even have to leave their backyard to produce NFL ready talent in college. And we think we are going to get to the top how? Guess where those players are looking to play? Hint- it ain't ND! You start solving that problem- and you'll start seeing better talent at ND. Until then we'll just keep playing this little game amongst ourselves while we get beaten by Purdue and BC.

Here is the way I see it and always have. Notre Dame is in a quandary with the way college football is in the modern age. ND used to get the biggest and best talent in the country because they were one of the only schools that would recruit nationally (back in the old days). Plus, they had one of the first television deals so they could play the "you'll be on TV card". Now, everyone and their Mom has a TV network (or will be on a cable channel somewhere). Additionally, with the internet, being seen for a pro scout is no longer a problem.

So if TV isn't a draw now, and colleges are recruiting all over the country, what does Notre Dame offer? Mystique? Gone. Rich heritage and tradition? Not important to kids who haven't seen any of it during their lifetimes and don't care about anything past an NFL contract. Think about it...if you are an elite five star, blue chip athlete which place do you want to go?

1. A school with warm weather, beaches, hot women, easy classes and a springboard to the NFL.

or

2. A place with seasonal and cold weather, no beaches, cute women (but not smoking hot, ready for porn women), HARD classes and no guarantee of a chance at the NFL or a high draft position (which costs you money).

It's not really that hard to deduce the decline of the program. Simply put, ND used to be ahead of the rest of the college football world and the world caught up and passed us. In this day and age, more so than ever before, college football is a big time game and a feeder system for the NFL (obviously). But with ND, we are setting ourselves apart with what we cannot offer anymore and with our stringent academics. Sure, someone like Stanford is in the same boat we are and they have success some might argue. Really though, do they? When was the last time Stanford won the National Championship...or even dominated their conference? They have done a decent job of knocking off PAC-10 teams under Harbaugh...but that's what it is...knocking off. Nobody is talking "Stanford in the NC game!" and they probably never will.

Notre Dame stresses good ethics, good behavior on and off the field and academics first. Sadly, this is not what is on the mind of 98% of all elite, blue chip athletes. And really...why should it be? When the NFL can give you a contract larger than winning the lottery in most states before you have even played a pro snap, why get a degree? Why even pretend to go to class, much less have to carry an average or lose your ride? Why wouldn't you go to 'Bama or USC? I hate to say it, but the time is going to come one day for ND to have to make a choice. They are not a football factory and because of that they will probably have to go Ivy League or something of that nature. For too long they have always wanted their cake and to eat it too...the best athletes, the best education, the best ethics. Unfortunately, with all the money now in college and pro football, that is no longer feasible. We complain and blame whomever is the choice du jour, but the fault lies in our expectations.

We expect a small (by other school program's standards) school to field a national championship team capable of winning multiple titles in a land dominated by programs with loose morals, light educational standards and better scenery. It's not going to happen. Sure, we used to...and we may again in a season where everything lines up right for us. But the reality is, there are plenty of teams in FBS football that have no shot at ever winning a title and they keep playing it.

I thoroughly believe they need to tier out college football into different classes (much better of a division than just FBS, FCS and Divisions II and III). Clearly, there is a much bigger difference between teams like Texas and Wyoming and there always will be, no matter how much time and recruiting goes by. We like to pretend the playing field is equal, but it isn't. That is not a coach's fault.

 

[Irish Man3]

It wasn't a question. It's a fact. And it wasn't ESPN, it was a Rivals Article. (If it was ESPN linked- I concede- but not sure we're talking about the same article).

Any case, each of those 3 states have over 170 players from their state, currently playing in the NFL. Care to take a guess how many of those left those areas to play for ND? Not many. Actually, if you care to look, Wikipedia' Irish page has a decent summary of ND graduates playing in the NFL now. Look at those name and tell me what you think.

I don't know anyone can argue that USC, Texas, UCLA, Florida, Michigan, Miami, all put out more pro's, more long tenured pro's, and high caliber NFL talent than ND. Those players statistically come from those areas.

I didn't say ND did attract talent from those areas, I said they didn't attract HIGH LEVEL talent from those areas. That's what we're talking about here. Hight talent, real draft class talent that pans out in the long haul. We simply don't. If we did, WHERE ARE THEY???

Notre Dame doesnt recruit players that they think are going to be great NFL Hall of Fame players. Notre Dame, along with every other school in the country, recruit players to fit their system. They recruit the best players they can get for their system.
You say Notre Dame's problem is turning out NFL stars. I completly disagree. No college coach is concerned with turning out NFL HOF players. They need players that will succeed while at their school.

 

[dsotm]

Here is the way I see it and always have......

Great post. I agree in sentiment with all of it. Except, I still think ND should be relevant. Things have been changing since the 80's and they managed to do be decent during a few years in the 80's and 90's. It can turn around if they have a few season's in which they are not a joke. That's the catch 22. ND is still prestigous- but you're right, money talk and...you know the drill.

 

[dsotm]

Notre Dame doesnt recruit players that they think are going to be great NFL Hall of Fame players. Notre Dame, along with every other school in the country, recruit players to fit their system. They recruit the best players they can get for their system.
You say Notre Dame's problem is turning out NFL stars. I completly disagree. No college coach is concerned with turning out NFL HOF players. They need players that will succeed while at their school.

Really, so you think they recruit players who they think will excel in NCAA football, and then play mediocre in the NFL? Maybe if they think this way, that's part of the problem. You can bet your almight dollar the U of ND is VERY concerned with which of their alma mater become Pro's. It's very lucrative- and it attracts better players. If you think no college coach is interested in that, well...I just don't know how I could explain it.

No, a good coach will recruit great players. Great players at the college level, out of HS, should fit any program, if they're great. If not, you're back to the same place- we got a kid who's good, but only in this formation, or this scheme...that's a failure right from the start. At the NCAA level- there is still a HIGH degree in variance of skill. They're kids. A lot of them are playing on skill alone as freshman and sophmores- you don't learn a college system in a few months. It takes time. If you're not recruiting kids (at least if you're not TRYING) to recruit future NFL players- you're not recruiting very well.

 

[TDHeysus]

We may not see any solid results until Kelly's fourth or fifth year.

FAIL - when the ND admin fired weis/hired Kelly this was not what they were thinking. and you can bet that Kelly would never say this, and you can bet when they fired Weis they werent thinking 4 or 5 years down the road before they win again. If Kelly doesnt start to get results till his 5th year, he will be gone. Taking into account the culture at ND since 1996, its a 3-5 year coaching at ND, if you want to stay around you'd better when before that 5th year.

Against Stanford this week, Notre Dame looked like Cincy did last year when they got steamrolled by Florida in that bowl game.

 

[mgriff]

FAIL - when the ND admin fired weis/hired Kelly this was not what they were thinking. and you can bet that Kelly would never say this, and you can bet when they fired Weis they werent thinking 4 or 5 years down the road before they win again. If Kelly doesnt start to get results till his 5th year, he will be gone. Taking into account the culture at ND since 1996, its a 3-5 year coaching at ND, if you want to stay around you'd better when before that 5th year.

Against Stanford this week, Notre Dame looked like Cincy did last year when they got steamrolled by Florida in that bowl game.

I have to agree with the first part. Kelly gets a pass this season no matter what, in the eyes of the administration. Next year should see moderate improvement, a winning record and 8-9 wins at a minimum, and by the third year, he better have things straightened out and competing for a BCS bid. We fans are a bit more impatient, but anything worse than my outline is absolutely not acceptable. The administration is more lenient than the fans, but bet your *** that if Kelly doesn't produce in his first four years, there is a problem.

 

[Irish Man3]

Really, so you think they recruit players who they think will excel in NCAA football, and then play mediocre in the NFL? Maybe if they think this way, that's part of the problem. You can bet your almight dollar the U of ND is VERY concerned with which of their alma mater become Pro's. It's very lucrative- and it attracts better players. If you think no college coach is interested in that, well...I just don't know how I could explain it.

No, a good coach will recruit great players. Great players at the college level, out of HS, should fit any program, if they're great. If not, you're back to the same place- we got a kid who's good, but only in this formation, or this scheme...that's a failure right from the start. At the NCAA level- there is still a HIGH degree in variance of skill. They're kids. A lot of them are playing on skill alone as freshman and sophmores- you don't learn a college system in a few months. It takes time. If you're not recruiting kids (at least if you're not TRYING) to recruit future NFL players- you're not recruiting very well.

Great highschool players do not fit any system. First of all, great highschool players are few and far between. Second, great players are a product of their system. Example: Drew Brees. Great players do not fit into any system ESPECIALLY when we are talking about highschool athletes. A great coach searches for a highschool athletes potential in college. The NFL is a "little" bit different than the NBA. The best athletes in highschool are not ready for the NFL whereas the best athletes in highschool basketball are. Coaches look for players that fir THEIR system for their COLLEGE program. Example, we have all said since Brian Kelly has been here that we need to be patient and wait for HIS players. He runs a spread offense which is much different then a pro style offense. Great players need to be in the right system to excel so your arguement is still bogus. You say Notre Dame's biggest flaw right now is that they are not turning out solid professional athletes. Thats is the most ridiculous thing that I have ever heard. We still recruit very well in the "hotbeds" that you threw out there in your initial arguement.

 

[DirtySecret]

"Look at the scholarship offers of our recruits and you will find that we have a team with above average potential, and, given time, practice, and competent coaching, we should expect above average production."


I keep hearing this ad nauseam, for decades now. It simply isn't true, by and large. Even if the stars aligned and all our players, right now, played to the absolute best of their potential, teams like Alabama, Biose, Arkansas, right now, would run right over us. It's the hard truth. Blame Weis, Blame Kelly, blame whomever you wish- you will not beat teams consistently until you can recuit a real top draft class. I know everyone will chime in now and tell me we always have a top 10 class, and we just don't develop. Save it. It's nonsense. We don't have the horses and haven't in some time. Sometimes we get one or two good combo's, like Quinn and Samardja (I can't spell it), and that will get us to 10-2 every so often. However, at this point, I've lost faith in this program. I give up. It's a disgrace, and the best I can tell, most of you are fine with it. We were an elite school. Now we're bottom tier. There is no debating it. Maybe when we beat a ranked opponent I'll believe things have changed. Until then, it's just more nonsense, more talk, more of the same. Season over in week 2.

Speed is definitely part of the problem. Yet, it's just a part of the overall issue. Generally, the better players are bigger, fast, stronger, and we don't have 'em! We haven't had them, overall, in quite a while. The end is very far off, I'm afraid. The problem is once you realized you have a mediocre team on the field- it's too late. It takes years to fix, not a season. And, regrettably we can't get the players anymore to fix it.

I saw an article yesterday saying the most players in the NFL come from California, Florida, and Texas- in that order. And, I might add, by a large margin. The 4th state with the most players has half of the 3rd state. That means three of the Elite programs in the country don't even have to leave their backyard to produce NFL ready talent in college. And we think we are going to get to the top how? Guess where those players are looking to play? Hint- it ain't ND! You start solving that problem- and you'll start seeing better talent at ND. Until then we'll just keep playing this little game amongst ourselves while we get beaten by Purdue and BC.

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[GDomer09]

No schematic advantage, just a system that called for a lot of long bombs to the endzone, which was a strong point for floyd (and tate)

Those long bombs worked...check our average score per game! If they work do you then abandon them completely?!?!?

 

[dsotm]

"Great players need to be in the right system to excel so your arguement is still bogus. You say Notre Dame's biggest flaw right now is that they are not turning out solid professional athletes"

No, great athletes will exel in in anything. Maybe not all will fit in a particular NFL scheme, but out of High School a superior athlete will adapt so long as he has half a brain.

Ok-- so, I give, where are they?? I'm still waiting for the top level pro's we're turning out???

 

[Irish Man3]

Great athletes do NOT adapt and succeed in anything. Im tired or this arguement because you make no sense. How many times have you seen a great athlete make the transition from track star to football? Dozens, but very rarely does it work out.
I never said Notre Dame was turning out "top level pros." I said we do not recruit kids out of highschool based on what we think they can do in the NFL. If they make it to the NFL and succeed then great but that possibility is not the base of a kids recruitment out of high-school. If colleges only went after the best athletes and not the best players for their system, then Notre Dame and every other college in the country would offer all of the athletes in the top 150 right? Is that the case? NO!! BK would recruit the #10 OLB at 6'3 225 running a 4.4 forty over the #3 OLB at 5'9 250 running a 4.8 forty would he not? Why? Because the #10 OLB fits HIS SYSTEM. He's not the better athlete so in your mind he's not the best pro prosect on the board. Your arguement remains bogus.

 

[IrishinSyria]

BK would recruit the #10 OLB at 6'3 225 running a 4.4 forty over the #3 OLB at 5'9 250 running a 4.8 forty would he not? Why? Because the #10 OLB fits HIS SYSTEM. He's not the better athlete so in your mind he's not the best pro prosect on the board. Your arguement remains bogus.

Umm, I'm pretty sure that a kid who is 6'3" with a 4.4 forty is pretty clearly a better athlete than a kid who is 5'9" and runs a 4'8"... Just sayin.

But yea, it's dumb to argue that college coaches should only think about pro potential. James Aldridge (pre injuries) had great pro potential, but Cierre Wood is a little quicker and probably will end up being a better spread style back.

On the other hand, athleticism helps. In general, the same things that help in college help at the NFL level so, yea, we want kids with an NFL future.

 

[Irish Man3]

Umm, I'm pretty sure that a kid who is 6'3" with a 4.4 forty is pretty clearly a better athlete than a kid who is 5'9" and runs a 4'8"... Just sayin.

But yea, it's dumb to argue that college coaches should only think about pro potential. James Aldridge (pre injuries) had great pro potential, but Cierre Wood is a little quicker and probably will end up being a better spread style back.

On the other hand, athleticism helps. In general, the same things that help in college help at the NFL level so, yea, we want kids with an NFL future.

Most scouting agencies go by stats. If the kid that is 5'9 has 120 tackles his senior year and the other kid has 65 because he plays less snaps or plays both ways then the 5'9 kid would be rated higher. Thats what I'm saying though, is that kids are evaluated differently by scouting agencies and coaches and so on. College football coaching scout and recruit athletes in highschool based on what that athlete can do to help his team at the next level. To say that our "problem" is that we are not turning out great pro athletes in ridiculous. Notre Dame recruiting has not been an issue.... EVER!! To say kids "dont want to come to ND'' if they are coming from Florida, Texas, or California is also ridiculous. Notre Dame's problem as far as its athletes has not been getting them on campus, but what we've done with them after they've been on campus. Charlie Weis, Bob Davey, and Tyrone Willingham are all guilty of it. We have needed a coach that recruits athletes for his system and we have that. What he has done with lower tier athletes in the past at previous school has been impressive so we will see if that succees follows him into South Bend with the elite athletes.
And as far as judging whether or not a kid could have an NFL career out of highschool is IMPOSSIBLE. So many different factors go into the transition from highschool to college and then from college to the NFL. Injury, lack of interst, failure to translate your highschool success to college, and so many other things factor into an NFL athlete.

 

[TDHeysus]

No, great athletes will exel in in anything. Maybe not all will fit in a particular NFL scheme, but out of High School a superior athlete will adapt so long as he has half a brain

I think at the top levels of college football, you go after the best athletes with a close watch on those players skillsets. The modern day QB position in college is different, if the best athlete is a pocket passer, and you run the spread, it doesnt do any good to go after that athlete. You dont want a pocket passer running your spread, even if he is an exceptional athlete.

Outside of the QB position, I tend to agree that you recruit the best athletes. But it depends, if your at a top tier football school, its all about getting the best athletes. If your at a lower tiered school, such as cincinnati, you recruit to fit your system. (partially because the big time athletes dont really committ to lower tier schools; there are exceptions)

Take a team like Boise St, for years they had to recruit to 'fit their system' out of necessity. But now they are starting to get some athletes to trickle in there. I think it reflects their rise in football stature within CFB.

I believe the best athletes will almost always win, especially in HS and college. The reason is simple too, they are bigger, stronger, and faster. Check JaMarcus Russell in college, he was awesome in college, because he was a better ahthlete. Also, check out Vince Young when he practically single handedly beat the Spawn of Satan in that bowl game a few year ago. Please go back and look at the TD that Vince Young runs to take the lead. He does absolutely nothing special, he runs into the end zone and all of the trojans players simply just could not catch him. That is superior athletic ability, they make it look so easy that when you watch it, you think to yourself, "Hell, I could have done that!" In actuality, you would have been crunched at the line of scrimmage.

 

[dsotm]

I think at the top levels of college football, you go after the best athletes with a close watch on those players skillsets. The modern day QB position in college is different, if the best athlete is a pocket passer, and you run the spread, it doesnt do any good to go after that athlete. You dont want a pocket passer running your spread, even if he is an exceptional athlete.

Outside of the QB position, I tend to agree that you recruit the best athletes. But it depends, if your at a top tier football school, its all about getting the best athletes. If your at a lower tiered school, such as cincinnati, you recruit to fit your system. (partially because the big time athletes dont really committ to lower tier schools; there are exceptions)

Take a team like Boise St, for years they had to recruit to 'fit their system' out of necessity. But now they are starting to get some athletes to trickle in there. I think it reflects their rise in football stature within CFB.

I believe the best athletes will almost always win, especially in HS and college. The reason is simple too, they are bigger, stronger, and faster. Check JaMarcus Russell in college, he was awesome in college, because he was a better ahthlete. Also, check out Vince Young when he practically single handedly beat the Spawn of Satan in that bowl game a few year ago. Please go back and look at the TD that Vince Young runs to take the lead. He does absolutely nothing special, he runs into the end zone and all of the trojans players simply just could not catch him. That is superior athletic ability, they make it look so easy that when you watch it, you think to yourself, "Hell, I could have done that!" In actuality, you would have been crunched at the line of scrimmage.

Bingo! I have no idea what Irishman 3 is smoking, but to say ND is not having problems recruiting is pure blindness. We simply are not getting the biggest, fastest, and strongest. I mean, has he watched our D in ten years?? And that's what matters in college. And, those are the guys who, more often that not, end up pro's. I never said we recruit based on who will be a Pro- I said we aren't recruiting guys who are good enuogh to end up being pro's. The facts are there. Irishman3 can ignore them all he wants. The list of great Irish players in the NFL in the past 20 years has been dismal, and if that's not a result of the recruiting classes entering ND, I'm not sure what is.

Can a guy without NFL potential be a success in college, of course- history is littered with them, but to think Kelly wouldn't be recruiting guys, whether he phrases it that way or not, that he doesn't think could go on to be superstar NFL players would be just ludicrous. Talent out of HS is raw in most cases. What you are judging in most cases is atheltic ability. That's what it's all about. You think Denard was drafted out of HS for the scheme? They drafted him because he was fast as all get out, and could throw bombs. Simple.