SI article on ND and expansion

ACamp1900

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all those people wanting a 10 round plyoff and complete dismantling of the current system are gonna hate ND even more if that headline comes to pass...
 

Riddickulous

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College football is spinning completely out of control. All this talk of four sixteen-team superconferences and playoffs.
 

phork

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The way I see it you fall one of 2 ways. Either you are a traditionalist, you like Big10/Pac10 Rose Bowl, no championship game, you play out the season and you play with your conference tie in. If you happen to be #1 at the end of the bowl season, great!

Or you are the person who wants to see a true national champion. A playoff or yes even a bunch of 16 team super conferences. Yes I know in the end that everything is about money. But let me tell you something kids, tradition took the last bus to Nowheresville and it is not coming back.

Frankly ND is going to be shut down if any of this happens. Do they have the power to stop realignment? I don't think as much as they would like. And why couldn't an agreement be reached with NBC and the Big10 that would allow ND home games to still be broadcast on NBC. Its a win, win for everyone IMO. In the end its a perfect marriage. One that had its rocky times in the dating process. If it wasn't for Yost way back when, ND would already be in the Big10.

Now as for the NBC contract whos to say that ND doesn't get shuffled off to Versus? Nothing is safe and when your team is wallowing in sub-mediocrity over the last 15+ years, your chips aren't quite worth as much in the big game. I have thought about this long and hard and I feel that there is no other solution. Had Weis done what we expected him to do, I might have another opinion. Because when you are a wanted player you have room to move in negotiations. When you can't beat UConn, at your house, well its getting kind of tight in here.

Frankly I don't see ND losing at all here. Typical games would still exist, IE the USCs, BCs etc. I can't see a total clamp down on just scheduling conference teams.

In the end I think it is suicide if ND doesn't hitch their wagon to this idea.
 
H

HereComeTheIrish

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The way I see it you fall one of 2 ways. Either you are a traditionalist, you like Big10/Pac10 Rose Bowl, no championship game, you play out the season and you play with your conference tie in. If you happen to be #1 at the end of the bowl season, great!

Or you are the person who wants to see a true national champion. A playoff or yes even a bunch of 16 team super conferences. Yes I know in the end that everything is about money. But let me tell you something kids, tradition took the last bus to Nowheresville and it is not coming back.

Frankly ND is going to be shut down if any of this happens. Do they have the power to stop realignment? I don't think as much as they would like. And why couldn't an agreement be reached with NBC and the Big10 that would allow ND home games to still be broadcast on NBC. Its a win, win for everyone IMO. In the end its a perfect marriage. One that had its rocky times in the dating process. If it wasn't for Yost way back when, ND would already be in the Big10.

Now as for the NBC contract whos to say that ND doesn't get shuffled off to Versus? Nothing is safe and when your team is wallowing in sub-mediocrity over the last 15+ years, your chips aren't quite worth as much in the big game. I have thought about this long and hard and I feel that there is no other solution. Had Weis done what we expected him to do, I might have another opinion. Because when you are a wanted player you have room to move in negotiations. When you can't beat UConn, at your house, well its getting kind of tight in here.

Frankly I don't see ND losing at all here. Typical games would still exist, IE the USCs, BCs etc. I can't see a total clamp down on just scheduling conference teams.

In the end I think it is suicide if ND doesn't hitch their wagon to this idea.

Well said, Phork....Couldn't agree more.
 

ACamp1900

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idk,... a lot of people seem to share phork feeling that "well we can keep it the same and if you are lucky enough to be number 1 at the end then great... but you're not a true cahmpion unless you win a playoff" to me that logic is so backwards.....

it takes more to be number one at the end of an entire season then it takes to win a one month playoff... Playoffs by design and definition do NOT show who was the best team for that year... only who won the playoff... and in just about every sport that has a playoff, that system has expanded to such an extent that the reg. season has lost nearly all importance and is nothing more than a play-in... yet that is a "truer champion"???... it's not opinion, it's defining fact that playoffs do not provide "true champions" for that year... they only provide a winner of a tournament that is more often than not COMPLETELY sperate from the season result... especially once you expand them beyond two-four teams... it just astonishes me how people think a playoff is rightfully more important when it's often nothing more than a crap shoot compared to a full on season... cfb has an issue right now, and I believe needs to be tweaked, but currently it is the only sport in the country that has a system that holds the reg. season up to what it should be... yet "let's throw that out first" is usually the first thing you hear... whatever to each their own... most people obviously just seem to accept the premise that a playoff is an inflawable system that is just perfect in every way... I obviously don't accept that premise and it has much less to do with tradition rather than just the observation of how it has impacted "champions" in other sports

as far as ND joining up or not joining up... I'm sure they won't end up on the outside looking in with whatever happens

my two cents
 
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TerryTate

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Notre Dame will not be "shut out" if power conferences begin forming. Regardless of what happens, Notre Dame pulls some serious money. Great, Northwestern got a check for $22MM last year. Advertisers don't care about NW. Any conference stands to make a boatload of money by bringing in Notre Dame, its fanbase, and all the viewership that marketers drool over. Any/All conferences would love to include this broad demographic. The bargaining power is in ND's hands.
 

G_Rob_B

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The legitimacy of a playoff lies in the transitive law of equality or inequality (A > B, B > C, then A > C). Granted, this argument is tenuous because its about the best team that shows up that day, unlike a 7 game series like in MLB, NHL, or NBA. But if there was a playoff, theoretically the winner would be greater than all the teams in all the divisions that provide their champions to that playoff. This may not be completely accurate because the champions of their respective divisions will have losses to teams within their division, but the theory is that the best team in the division is the team that has the best record in that division. From that point, we begin the transitive law.

Take March Madness for example. Northern Iowa beats Kansas, MSU beats Northern Iowa, Butler beats MSU, Duke beats Butler. The transitive law says that Duke is better than Kansas. Without that tournament, and if Duke never played Kansas and they never played any common opponents, there would not be any on the court results to see who is better. As sports fans, we do not like reliance on statistics or computers to tell us who is better, we want to see it on the field, court, ice, etc.

Given logistical constraints of not being able to literally play every team, this appears to be the best way of doing it. Of course there will be arguments that injuries change the make up of a team (i.e. Kalen Lucas for MSU), but those things are part of the game. Additionally a long chain of who is better based on common opponents is tenuous, but there doesn't seem to be a better way of doing it and if you keep the time interval between each match as short as possible, it gives it more legitimacy. Without a playoff, we will have another USC or LSU national champion situation in the future.
 
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kmoose

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..... And why couldn't an agreement be reached with NBC and the Big10 that would allow ND home games to still be broadcast on NBC.

Because the other schools would never allow it. ND is a very good business school. You don't get to being a good business anything, without knowing the value of your brand. ND knows that they have a brand, and that that brand has value. They are not going to let NBC, or any other network, televise their games for free. So ND has to get paid. If ND is getting paid, then the other schools are going to want their cut. The precedence is already strongly entrenched, in bowl revenue sharing. Plus, with the recruiting advantage that being on television every week gives you, then why would tOSU, Penn State, Michigan, or even Northwestern or Illinois agree to hand over a competitive edge like that, to ND?

The bottom line is........if ND joins a conference, they are going to have to be a part of that conference's TV deal. The other schools will guarantee that.
 

phork

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Because the other schools would never allow it. ND is a very good business school. You don't get to being a good business anything, without knowing the value of your brand. ND knows that they have a brand, and that that brand has value. They are not going to let NBC, or any other network, televise their games for free. So ND has to get paid. If ND is getting paid, then the other schools are going to want their cut. The precedence is already strongly entrenched, in bowl revenue sharing. Plus, with the recruiting advantage that being on television every week gives you, then why would tOSU, Penn State, Michigan, or even Northwestern or Illinois agree to hand over a competitive edge like that, to ND?

The bottom line is........if ND joins a conference, they are going to have to be a part of that conference's TV deal. The other schools will guarantee that.

This is what I am saying. NBC becomes an surrogate for the Big10 Network. Believe me the Big10 and the B10 Network do not need ND, they already pull down per team more than ND does. The only thing ND does is enhance the product.
 

kmoose

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This is what I am saying. NBC becomes an surrogate for the Big10 Network. Believe me the Big10 and the B10 Network do not need ND, they already pull down per team more than ND does. The only thing ND does is enhance the product.

So you're saying that NBC will only televise ND games? That's not going to fly. Why would the other schools sign on for that? And the B10 Network is already in a big fight with cable companies, over the cost of carrying the B10 Network. They aren't going to introduce NBC as an option for B10 football, to compete with the games on the B10 Network.
 

phork

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NBC gets ND home games and expands Big10 coverage. I don't think you get the point here.. NBC wins, ND wins and the Big10 wins with expanded coverage. It is another outlet to show the league.
 

kmoose

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NBC gets ND home games and expands Big10 coverage. I don't think you get the point here.. NBC wins, ND wins and the Big10 wins with expanded coverage. It is another outlet to show the league.

I don't think you get the point here. No way is Penn State, Michigan, Michigan State, The Ohio State University, or any other member school going to be ok with ND having their own TV contract. They will ALL demand the right to negotiate their own TV contracts. There's no way that the Conference will allow that, and the whole thing will become a HUGE mess. Everyone will be screaming even louder, about the "special treatment" that ND gets.
 

phork

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PennState, UM, MSU and tOSU have their own contract... Perhaps you missed the $22Million checks being tossed to Big10 members last year for their appearances.
 

mgriff

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I think he may also be referring to the extra exposure that Notre Dame would get. It would be far more than the other teams in the Big Ten. I was in Louisiana for this past season and I saw every single Notre Dame game on TV. That cannot be said for the rest of the Big Ten.
 

kmoose

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PennState, UM, MSU and tOSU have their own contract... Perhaps you missed the $22Million checks being tossed to Big10 members last year for their appearances.

No, they don't! They are part of the Big Ten contract. The $22M was their share of the Conference's TV and radio revenue. If ND is allowed to keep the NBC contract, each of those teams is going to clamor for the ability to negotiate their own deal, outside of the Big Ten contract. Is that really so hard to understand? I love your idea, but it's just not practical.
 

TDHeysus

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I don't think you get the point here. No way is Penn State, Michigan, Michigan State, The Ohio State University, or any other member school going to be ok with ND having their own TV contract. They will ALL demand the right to negotiate their own TV contracts. There's no way that the Conference will allow that, and the whole thing will become a HUGE mess. Everyone will be screaming even louder, about the "special treatment" that ND gets.

If ND is part of a conference AND has their own deal with say NBC, the rest of the conference teams are going to want/demand a cut from that television contract.

As far other teams wanting to negotiate their own deal, the question then becomes would there be any takers? Notre Dame has a marketable brand, that other schools dont have.

What network wants the excusive rights to broadcast NorthWestern games?
 

ryno 24

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Notre Dame loses its claim to exposure if they join a conference
 

phork

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No, they don't! They are part of the Big Ten contract. The $22M was their share of the Conference's TV and radio revenue. If ND is allowed to keep the NBC contract, each of those teams is going to clamor for the ability to negotiate their own deal, outside of the Big Ten contract. Is that really so hard to understand? I love your idea, but it's just not practical.

So then they do have a contract, seeing as how being part of the Big10 they nailed down $22M? Separately no, collectively yes. I understand it just fine thanks. None of those teams, aside from maybe UM, could demand their own deal.

If ND is part of a conference AND has their own deal with say NBC, the rest of the conference teams are going to want/demand a cut from that television contract.

That is the other point.. Of course the revenue would be shared, but instead of $22M they get say $25M. Like I said, its a win-win for everyone and little pot sweetener to get ND in to the Big10.
 

kmoose

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None of those teams, aside from maybe UM, could demand their own deal.

20 years ago, I would have agreed with you. But not anymore. With all of the regional Fox Sports Channels, and Comcast even getting into the Sports Channel game........ trust me, The Ohio State University, and that Skunkbear School from up North, could both find a deal that would add a few more million a year to their revenues. Maybe not a national deal, but a deal.

The other thing that you have to consider is the mindset of academics: As it stands now, none of the member schools of the Big Ten really own the rights to televise their games; the Conference does. The conference negotiates a TV deal, the schools approve it, and the Conference collects and distributes the revenues. In essence, the schools are blocked from negotiating their own deals, locally or nationally, by the deal that the Conference has negotiated. Let's say you introduce ND into the mix, and allow them to keep their seperately negotiated deal with NBC? You think that the other schools will agree to give ND the freedom to negotiate their own deal, while the Conference tells them that they are stuck with what the best that the Conference can negotiate? There would be anti-trust lawsuits all over the place. Even those schools that aren't able to command their own deals would be crying "oppression!"

I absolutely see your point, about it being a win-win-win, in the scenario you describe. My point is that your scenario is based on assumptions that are so highly unlikely to occur (the other schools allowing ND to maintain the ability to negotiate their own deal, without them being able to do the same), that it's just not realistic.
 

wakeuptheechoes

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If ND is being paid $9 million and the Big Ten teams are paid $22 million, I peronally would live to get stuck with that deal. I am sure that something could be worked out by ND's NBC money going into the Conference fund then being redistributed ND would come out with more money and the Big Ten schools would come out with even more than the $22 milion. Then when the contract expired ND would no longer be on NBC. All of that aside, what is really best for ND? If it is in the best interest of ND to join the Big Ten, then I say do it. If it is in the best interest of ND to stay independent then I say do it. When I am watching them on the field, I am not thinking "wow this is an independent team." The history of ND will not change, perhaps the future will, but what has happened in the past will always be.
 
J

johnnykillz

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Nostalgia is important. Many things exist due to nostalgia. Cubs and the ivy, smokejumping, ND's independence are a few.

Other better things exist, but there's just something about the taste of teaberry gum that can't be replaced by the longer flavored new gums.

We have something special, and when it's gone if time comes, we'll miss it. Maybe we can behold a few more years. When the time comes, we'll be welcomed appropriately...
 

irishtrain

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My 2 cents is I agree with Johnnykills, and a Rolls Royce in a car lot full of Fords/Chevys does not make the Fords/Chevys Rolls Royces and the Rolls Royce will never be a Ford/Chevy even if its wheels fall off. May it never come to joining a conference. Just start winning and the BCS will take care of itself along with the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame.
 

phork

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So ND is now a Ford or a Chevy? Because it is clearly not a Rolls anymore.. Times are what they are fellas. Unfortunately the last 20 years has not been kind to ND football and because of that, and the crossroads that college football is at right now, ND might not have a choice.
 

FrankMA

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So ND is now a Ford or a Chevy? Because it is clearly not a Rolls anymore.. Times are what they are fellas. Unfortunately the last 20 years has not been kind to ND football and because of that, and the crossroads that college football is at right now, ND might not have a choice.

ND is still special. It is still the top college football team here in the Northeast. It is the only college team with a national following and which has a national TV contract. In fact, it is the only team in any sport, college or pro, which has their own national TV contract. So, ND is still very special to a lot of people-ND is still relevant. While going into a conference may be inevitable, the long term result of that, I am afraid, would be that ND would just be another college team in the Midwest and no longer a national team.
It is great to have all the history and tradition; but, it would only be history. ND’s national following will be gone. They will be Northwestern or even worst, Northeastern.
 

irishtrain

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So ND is now a Ford or a Chevy? Because it is clearly not a Rolls anymore.. Times are what they are fellas. Unfortunately the last 20 years has not been kind to ND football and because of that, and the crossroads that college football is at right now, ND might not have a choice.
Mark it down that this was said after the dust clears on the next few years. My opinion is no conference affiliation, and Notre Dame football in my humble opinion is still a Rolls. We will see what happens
 
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