ND Needs to be very Careful

[Irish Canuck]

I know I'm going to piss people off with this.... but I've been thinking about it for a while. Deep down I've known... like it or not... that ND's independence days have been numbered.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
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Expansion of the Big 10 and Pac 10 would give them both a championship game. Along with the Big 12, ACC, and SEC... <o></o>
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With all the major conferences having champ games.... how could ND ever get selected to play in the NC over 2 of these teams?<o></o>
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It would almost be like there's a playoff.... and ND isn't invited. You would have 5 teams who have won a 13th game... a Conference Championship game. And then you have ND... who has only played a (increasingly mediocre) reg season sched. <o></o>
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And don’t think for one minute that both of these conferences haven’t been told to expand… get a champ game… to alleviate some of the ‘we need a playoff’ pushers. Championship games in all the major conferences mean we sort of have a playoff. In addition, gobble up <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1:State w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Utah</st1lace></st1:State> and TCU etc… and that leaves only <st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">Boise St</st1:address></st1:Street> out there whining… But <st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">Boise St</st1:address></st1:Street> won’t get in a conference because they offer nothing but football… and academics are horrible. No appeal to a conference.<o></o>
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I'm afraid ND is going to get caught up in a mess here unless they're proactive. Unfortunately the conference tie in they have is the Big East. And while that's great for basketball... for football it's like a mid-major. They simply can't get left holding the Big East as a dance partner. I also don't like the idea of ND being forced to play a card... and having nowhere left to go but the big east.<o></o>
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Now I know there will be guys who will simply dismiss my thoughts here because ND has always been independent etc... and curse anyone who suggest otherwise...<o></o>
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... but if you really start to analyze the situation taking the emotion out... it doesn't look good for ND.<o></o>

 

[phork]

We are ND bro. I don't care if these conferences sign up 10 more teams. The fact is if you are undefeated, and a traditional power, you will most likely be 1 or 2.

 

[dskoo65]

i agree it could be a killer IF there are 4 major undefeated teams before conference championship games. the winner of that "playoff" (for example, sec championship between two undefeated teams) will be in, no questions asked. now if ND is undefeated and another undefeated team (Texas) wins a conference championship, ND is on the outside looking in, im sure. ND isnt going to stay ahead of (or leapfrog) teams like Texas, Alabama, or Florida if 2 of them finish undefeated after beating a strong team in a conference championship.

an undefeated powerhouse winning another game while ND finished a week or two earlier will hurt ND, especially if they have a finishing schedule like next season, where the lingering memories will be of a stretch run of victories against Western Michigan, Navy, Tulsa, Utah, Army, and SC (at least that victory should look good).



ND will be part of a conference one day, but id say later rather than sooner.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

I wish we joined the Big Ten when we had the chance.

 

[donnie hoss]

Add another game to the schedule.

 

[Irish4Life09]

i completely agree with u canuck. and for the first time in a long while, you were able to articulate the move to a conference better than anyone ive seen.

college football is definitely moving in this direction.there will be no playoff system,only conference championships.
if notre dame miraculously goes 12-0 you're still going to be stuck behind a florida/alabama/texas/usc type team that either goes 12-1 or 13-0. simply because the strength of their schedules is so much higher than ours,and their conferences are considered with such regard.ND would simply have no chance.

I personally would love us to join the Big10.Honestly I don't know why people wouldnt want this.The only thing that would probably hurt us would be NBC...but so what.we're going to lose that soon anyway with that buyout they just had.
We would have annual rivalry games against OSU,PSU,MICH,MICH ST., and MINN.
We could still play USC every year, and then we'd still have a few weak games.

It's going to happen eventually.The days of independent football are done,all it does now is hurt us.

 

[phork]

I'd love to join the Big10 personally. Tradition dictates otherwise.

 

[IrishInFl]

Everybody does realize that this is under the assumption that ND goes undefeated or nearly undefeated, right? This only hurts us if we really are that good, which we are not.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

We are ND bro. I don't care if these conferences sign up 10 more teams. The fact is if you are undefeated, and a traditional power, you will most likely be 1 or 2.

If we keep it up we will be as much of a traditional power as Army. Joining a conference would be the best move right now. Screw tradition.

 

[DirtySecret]

Many reasons exist for ND to remain a football independent, regardless of how the "industry" goes. But those reasons get thrown into sharp relief when applied to a conference like the Integer, and can be summed up in three words: Geography, Diversity, and Differentiation.

Geography. Notre Dame sits square in the middle of the Integer's geographic footprint, so at first glance, it might seem to be a good fit. But the value of Notre Dame's brand (because, let's face it, this is a money discussion more than anything) was built based on national appeal. There's a reason update and op-ed columns regarding Notre Dame's pursuit of Brian Kelly were written for or published in Tampa and New York City and Chicago and Boston and Los Angeles and Washington D.C. and Seattle and any number of other cities. You don't waste column inches on stories in which no one is interested.



But how long will that interest be maintained if the Fighting Irish end up playing 9 of their 12 games every year in a Midwest geographic footprint against other teams from that same footprint? Sure, a Notre Dame/Michigan game will pull in national interest for a while. But a steady diet of ND/Minnesota? ND/Iowa? ND/Northwestern? Why should people in Florida and California and New York and Washington care about those games? How soon before their disinterest shows and Notre Dame becomes yet another marginalized regional school, pushed further behind the eight-ball due to its small graduating classes relative to those geographic "peers"?



Diversity. The Integer comprises ten large state universities and one private [edit] secular university. Outside of a desire for scholarship at the 20,000-foot level, Notre Dame has little, if anything, in common with any of them. Notre Dame graduates about two to three thousand people per year, while the Integer factory in total cranks out numbers in six figures. Notre Dame's graduation rate for undergrads typically operates north of 95 percent, and its rates for student athletes leads the nation. The rates for most of the Integer schools, by comparison, are downright embarrassing.



When you join a conference, the needs of the many supplant the needs of the few. Decisions get made by the majority, and with the masses of humanity on land-grant campuses who (based on the numbers) really don't give a rip about the academic side of things when it comes to their athletes, Notre Dame will be subjected to a steady diet of being on the wrong end of 10-2 and 11-1 decisions. Michigan and Ohio State have owned the Integer lock, stock and barrel for long and long. That ain't gonna change any time soon. The idea of voluntarily subjecting ourselves to their whims for 30 pieces of silver makes my brain hurt.



Differentiation. When a recruit comes to Notre Dame's campus, aside from being presented with the scholastic and spiritual ways in which Notre Dame is different from their competitors, they also see the opportunity to play a national schedule. Why limit yourself to games against your neighbors, the coaches can say, when you can play Southern Cal and Navy and Tennessee and Florida State and Pittsburgh and Oklahoma and Boston College and Arizona State, all of whom have appeared recently or will appear on future Notre Dame schedules? Why play just about all your games in flatland stadiums a bus ride away when you can play in Los Angeles, New York City, Washington D.C., Dallas, and Ireland? Granted, the 7-4-1 abomination is hurting Notre Dame in this area in the short term, but that's a self-inflicted wound that could be healed up should the program desire.



Think about how that discussion changes if Notre Dame joins the Integer. How would we differentiate ourselves from the Michigans and Ohio States of the world? We'd all be located in the same area of the country. We'd all play the same schedules. Why should they come to Notre Dame and have to apply themselves when they can just skate by as a Buckeye or Wolverine? Integer membership makes it all the more difficult to set ourselves apart from a rather low caliber of company, and this holds true not only for football but perhaps even more so for Notre Dame's other sports.
Those who favor conference membership have their mantras, of course. Haugh points out that "an independent Notre Dame team with two losses by midseason -- the rule more than the exception lately -- struggles to find motivation. A Big Ten team with two losses by midseason after expansion would have a shot to win its division and play in the lucrative conference title game."
What he fails to note is a two-loss Notre Dame team doesn't deserve to play in a "lucrative conference title game" or any other high-profile contest. They should earn their way into those games like they always have in the past. The solution is to improve the product on the field so standards are met, not dumb down expectations to the point that a "conference title game appearance" is viewed as something to applaud.
National Championships are remembered forever by the people who saw them. Conference titles are recorded on banners that everyone sees but no one looks at. The BCS gives mediocrities access to the championship structure by virtue of their membership in a particular group of teams. And yet those mediocrities scream about how Notre Dame gets "special treatment", even though you'll never see a 9-3 ND team even sniffing a BCS bid like Purdue and Stanford have in the past. Even Alanis Morisette would find that ironic.



Notre Dame is a national brand because of the efforts of those who came before -- Rockne, Leahy, Hesburgh, Joyce, Parseghian, Holtz. Joining the Integer will effectively undo those efforts more effectively than just about any choice I can fathom. Becoming a small regional school with a small regional following may be attractive to those who want the money but don't want to make the effort, but to those alumni and fans who believe those heights can be reached, it smacks of being lazy and cheap, neither of which are words I want associated with my school.



Let's also not forget these people hate us. There's no love lost between Notre Dame and any Integer school at any level, from the alumni and fans on up. The Integer and its members benefit from Notre Dame's involvement much more than the other way around, and all they're interested in is our money and the reflected attention they can get from us. If Joanna Barnes could make herself look like a crappy football stadium, it'd be a natural.


ND has no responsibility to come to the aid of smaller schools, and certainly not by joining an unholy alliance. In short and in summary, this is a subject that needs to be buried once and for all.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Why are you calling the Big Ten the Integer?

 

[TDHeysus]

ND will remain independent as long as it is profitable for them to do so.

To offset conference championship games, ND has exceptions with the BCS that automatically qualifies them if they achieve a certain ranking. No other teams have these exceptions. An undefeated Irish team is gonna play for the NC 9.9 out of 10 times. Plus, as DirtySecret points out, this is about money. ND, wherever they play, puts fans in the seats, sells merchandise, advertisment on TV, puts $$$ into the local economy, you name it - ND is a money generating entity for all involved. If Penn State had the same type of $$$$ generating power they would still independent too.

I'm pretty sure that if ND joined a conference, their NBC contract would be gone, or they would have to share any profits with the conference. who wants to do that?? haha

 

[irishtrain]

If we keep it up we will be as much of a traditional power as Army. Joining a conference would be the best move right now. Screw tradition.

I hope in my lifetime I never ever see the day, there is only one Notre Dame and when Notre Dame is excellant it plays for national championships. If they are not that caliber they should not play for all the beans. Do you guys realize that if notre Dame joins a conference it loses it identity as the only one of its kind. May this never happen. College football loses if Notre Dame goes the route of everybody else. It would be a shame to lose a national icon in sports. You also lose a national brand equal to any franchise in the world of sports.

 

[Straight Talk Hawk]

Straight Talk Hawk

Straight Talk Hawk

I am a University of Iowa graduate and fan, and I think Irish Canuck has the right view of the future. I wonder what effect the Comcast purchase of NBC would have on future contracts, and why the additional $10 million per year for joining the Big 10/11 wouldn't be a good deal, especially if you could keep your TV contract. I am afraid that this day and age money is THE driving issue, like it or not. The Universities of Texas, Nebraska, and Missouri, and Rutgers, Syracuse, and Pitt are all strong candidates being considered for a 12 to 16 team conference, and a conference of 16 teams means no Notre Dame later. What if the Big East demands that you either join in football, or you are out in all sports? What if the Big East loses Rutgers, Syracuse, and/or Pitt and has to disband or scramble for other schools for all sports? The CIC academic research arm of the Big 10/11 would be a tremendous boost for your academics, and you could get qualified for the AAU research organization, too. You could still schedule regional non-conference games with Southern Cal, etc. A national championship means you will HAVE to beat big-name competition anyway, and a conference winner would have a big edge.

Just some thoughts. I am sure Notre Dame and the Big 10/11 are having VERY interesting behind-the-scenes conversations, so we'll see. How about we add Notre Dame and change the name to "THEE Twelve Apostles Conference"? Deal?

 

[bert2834]

I hope this doesn't happen because then I would have to pay more money to get the Big Ten(or whatever they call it then) Network.

 

[johnnykillz]

Dirty secret:
:jawdrop:

AMEN!!!!

Someone just got punked.

And it was dealt by Dirty.





That's all I gots to say about that suckas...

 

[johnnykillz]

P.S.

Let's not forget:

WE ARE ND!

 

[IrishAddiction]

No we dont need to be careful. We can play whomever we need to to get to the national championship. We have the largest fan base, the ability to make our schedule as tough as anyones.

ND doesnt need in a conference, especially the shit conference known as the Big Ten. Penn State and OSU can play in the crappiest BCS conference, and then play 3-4 powderpuff teams and think they deserve NC recognition. I call BS.

We are independant for a reason.

 

[nd1988]

We are ND bro. I don't care if these conferences sign up 10 more teams. The fact is if you are undefeated, and a traditional power, you will most likely be 1 or 2.

there you have it........thats bs.............every conference is starting to "press" for their own network...meaning...ND and NBC is really gonna fade away quick....so if ND goes undefeated against some mid major teams...they are "suppose" to play in the NC game? Plz....Love my Irish but hell......you gotta win against the best to be the best...which they haven't done in quiet some time...right now..they are a "low-average" team and if you can't see that then........i don't know.......you're a lost little man or gal.

 

[no.1IrishFan]

I wish we joined the Big Ten when we had the chance.

We tried to join the Big Ten on 3 seperate occassions when the conferance was formed in the late 1800's. They(Michigan) did not want us in the conferance and our application was denied all 3 times.

 

[ryno 24]

We should never join a conference we have all the power that we could ever need if we win then we are good

 

[alleycat9]

this is something to talk about if and when the tv deal with nbc falls apart and we no longer have a tv contract. until that point there is absolutely no reason to think about joining any conference.

thank you dirty secret

 

[phgreek]

WoW...DS, I'm impressed...

I love the NBC gig...and if it augers in on us...who knows maybe CBS grabs us...I know I'd pay Dish or direct to get an ND channel. But I doubt that will be necessary...if it wasn't lucrative, or have massive potential, NBC would never have done the deal...I can't speak to NBC's botom line here, but hadn't heard they lost money consistantly, if at all, on the ND deal...

I see the concern for The conferences and the BCS pulling a number on us every once in a blue moon when the stars align...I don' even doubt some conspiracy. All those points are inciteful, but are being elevated to Armegeddon levels here...day in, day out this brand is simply bigger than the need for conferences...

...however, we do need to win. We wouldn't be worried about NBC if we'd have been a BCS team in either of the last 2 years...

 

[Irish Houstonian]

I agree that there are pros and cons to joining the Big 10, but to say that it's inevitable is silly. Not to belabor the above, but ND simply does not need a conference to make a BCS game with a good enough record -- in fact, as much is written in the BCS rules.

They'll always play USC and Michigan, and probably Michigan State and Boston College. With the usual mix of opponents (i.e., the type of schedule they've had for the last 30 years) their strength-of-schedule will be more than enough to get them in the National Championship should they go undefeated.

And so what if the NBC contract fades away? Every game will still be nationally-televised on some network, whether it be ESPN, ABC, or NBC a la carte. (Funny how half of ND detractors argue that the NBC contract is worthless, and the other half argue that ND need to join a conference lest they lose the priceless national TV coverage.)

Another reason to stay independent is the fact that when BCS rules are amended ND gets its own vote as if it were a BCS conference. Why give that up? For that matter, why split bowl revenue? Or licensing revenue? Or TV revenue? Or heck, *any* revenue?

There are reasons ND rebuffed the Big 10 several times before. And the only thing that's changed is now the Big 10 has an obscure DirecTV channel devoted to the promotion of womens' volleyball.

 

[carolinairish]

We should go to the following conferance of teams.

Notre Dame
Michigan
Ohio State
Penn State
Florida
Alabama
Southern Cal
Texas
Oklahoma
Nebraska
Miami of Florida
Florida State

I would call it 'The Conferance'
Split it in to 2 divisions and the conferance winners play for the national championship.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

I think its a moot point on what ND would lose by joining a conference. If ND were to join a conference I believe that it would be on there terms. I don't think its a big deal that theyd be confined to play big 10 teams. Think about it... a conference schedule playing UM, MSU, Penn State, Ohio State, Iowa, Wisconsin, Purdue. ND plays at least 3 of those teams every year ( UM, MSU, Purdue) tOSU, PSU, Iowa, Wisconsin would take the place of Pitt, Uconn, WSU, and Washington. I know that it'd be a blow to recruiting because we wouldn't be traveling around the country, but ND vs. Penn State/ Ohio State is a way bigger venue then playing Washington. If ND could negotiate a contract where they would play, say, tOSU (example) at a neutral sight in Cali, Texas, Alabama..etc would be a HUGE venue.

This would leave 5 OOC games. USC and Navy would stay on the schedule. That leaves 3 more games to schedule wherever. Doesn't sound that bad. I am not for it by any means, but if the day comes where ND must join a conference, I hope they see it well in advance. I want ND to have some power and leverage in negotiations to get whats best for ND, not have to beg to be let in or concede to whatever offer they get. I don't see it happening anytime soon, especially because the next 2 years will be economically prosperous because of the new coach and how they are going to be analyzed everyday on ESPN come July. But ND does have to start winning soon. Another 5 years like the last 5 and ND is in trouble. But, if they win, then none of this matter because they will control college football.

 

[ND FANATIC]

I know I'm going to piss people off with this.... but I've been thinking about it for a while. Deep down I've known... like it or not... that ND's independence days have been numbered

I have to say that I've had the same feeling. I think that what will drive to a conference more than anything is scheduling. If the Big Televen expands, we will lose at least one, possibly two of the Big Televen teams we play. With that, the expansion of the Pac 10 - and if they want to stay a BCS conference, the Big East, scheduling is going to be a nightmare. Once all of the conferences start their conference play, they aren't going to want to, or be allowed to, schedule ND - so our schedule will get watered down. If that happens, a one loss SEC could be put in the BCS championship over an undefeated ND (playing the watered down schedule).

I just have the feeling that if we stick to our indepence, we are going to get squeezed out.....As much as I hate to say/think it, we should join the Big Televen...

 

[Ben E.]

the only reason people are even talking about this is because we have been a .500 football team or worse recently. if ND was 8-3 or better recently this conversation would never be had. remeber folks, as bad as ND has been michigan is worse now, in the last twenty years usc & oklahoma have been worse, and in the last 30 years even osu has been mediocre at times. one bad decade and everyone is jumping off the bridge and willing to throw away our way of life? not me...i'm for staying the course!

 

[bigedefense]

I may be wrong here, as I have not researched it, but I thought that I read when they redone the BCS deal that ND gets a check each year whether we go to a BCS game or not. Not sure on the numbers but something like $1,000,000 for years we don't go, and 6,000,000 for the years we do. As I said, I don't know the dollar amount, but I remember thinking that it was pretty sweet to get that amount of money if we didn't go. We wouldnt get as much as others do if we went, but still a good amount. Maybe someone knows the amounts and can share. I will try and look for it later if not.

 

[kmoose]

the only reason people are even talking about this is because we have been a .500 football team or worse recently. if ND was 8-3 or better recently this conversation would never be had. remeber folks, as bad as ND has been michigan is worse now, in the last twenty years usc & oklahoma have been worse, and in the last 30 years osu has been worse(earl bruce anyone???). one bad decade and everyone is jumping off the bridge and willing to throw away our way of life? not me...i'm for staying the course!

I can agree with your overall premise. If ND weren't mired in mediocrity, currently, this discussion wouldn't even come up. However...........Earl Bruce worse than the current ND skid? Are you serious? In 9 seasons at tOSU, Earl Bruce went 81-26-1. That's an average of right about 9-3, per year. Earl Bruce got fired because he couldn't beat Michigan, despite the fact that he was routinely beating just about everyone else.