Hatin' on Ambiguity, Why ND is Cooked Thru 2009 and More!

[SteveM]

I hate ambiguity. It's these kinds of rinky-dink wins that promise a lack of resolution about where this program is going.

Knocking the general direction of the program does NOT mean I think that everything is crap. We showed some good power running against Navy. It's just too bad it was Navy.

The 2009 schedule is a "be careful what you wish for". It probably will not resolve the "Can Charlie get it done?" question. Because it's so soft, ND only has 1 quality win opportunity, USC. Maybe BC, but BC? C'mon.

If ND played 4 quality opponents in 2009 and lost 2 and then a third against a lesser because they were flat, that 9-3 record with 2 quality wins would mean a lot more than an 10-2, 11-1 against mostly low caliber competition. So say they go 10-2 next year with another loss to USC. All that gets us is another year of ambiguity. 10-2 is still going to get Mark May howling and although he's an idiot, he'll have a point. Play good teams so we know.

The Nick Saban dialogs here are off the mark. You guys are way ahead of yourselves. The guy you should be comparing Charlie to is Jeff Jagodzinski at BC. Let's see, he spanks ND, and then takes his kids down to Tallahassee and beats Florida State at their homecoming game. When ND beats Jags with his program, then compare and contrast with Saban.

And back to the "Youth and Beauty" argument. Hear are the class breakouts of ND and BC from the ESPN page:

Freshman - ND: 29, BC:41
Sophs - ND: 25, BC: 23
Juniors - ND 33, BC: 22
Seniors - ND 24, BC: 17

SteveM

 

[phork]

I tried to give you more reps, but I have to spread it around first. The points I bring up about Saban are purely things that I know immediately without research. This comparison is clearly high above mine. Nice work.

 

[Timugen]

Funny you should bring up Jagodzinski.

I was watching the FSU/BC game last night and it was off a feed that didn't play commercials. During some of the commercial breaks they forgot to turn off the mics in the booth, and during one of the breaks in the 4th quarter Herbie was remarking that ND should be trying to get Jagodzinski, and how he's pretty much a no-brainer for the HC job here.

 

[NDOM]

Funny you should bring up Jagodzinski.

I was watching the FSU/BC game last night and it was off a feed that didn't play commercials. During some of the commercial breaks they forgot to turn off the mics in the booth, and during one of the breaks in the 4th quarter Herbie was remarking that ND should be trying to get Jagodzinski, and how he's pretty much a no-brainer for the HC job here.

Oh my god dude. I heard that too. Herbstreit ROCKS! You should have heard what he said during college gameday.

 

[NDinL.A.]

The Jags comparison is a great comparison. My problem with your old comparisons was that they didn't really make sense (Paul Johnson) when comparing to what CW was doing at this time. But Jags has done a great job with that team. I gave you reps for a quality post, one that I could actually understand!!!

We can't do anything about the schedule. "It is what it is," as they say. But I disgagree in one sense. I doesn't have be a season of ambiguity (you probably even said this) if ND plays good football. Even if you're beating mediocre teams, people that know football (don't even bring up Mark May) will be able to tell if the team is getting to the level we all expect and hope for. If we're still squeaking out wins over Navy and Stanford and we're sitting at 10-1, then yes, you'll have your season of ambiguity. Hopefully that won't be the case.

And hopefully CW will be the man to do it. I'm standing behind him. Critics have every right to be upset, but the future is bright. Defense is rounding into shape and wait until you see our offense next year w/ a seasoned line (a new line coach for Xmas would be nice), a truckload of stud wideouts, and Cierre Wood giving these RB's some serious comp. CW just has to bring it all together...

 

[Irish52]

The impossible almost happened again last night in the Navy-ND game. We're on the 3 yard line with the play calling such that we almost guaranteed not to score...instead, we fumble. And our special teams progress was nil....two on-side kicks recovered by NAVY. Wasn't Charlie supposed to take over special team duties and assist the coach to correct noted problems. How much longer???

 

[Junkhead]

And our special teams progress was nil....

You forgetting the blocked punt for a TD? Anyway, I agree with the rest of what you said.

 

[ACamp1900]

I argee with steve except for the class breakdown, ESPN is using that to fry us daily and it ain't cool...

how many of our seniors play??? and of those how many are any good... three, maybe four?? look at the juniors, how many play key roles??? the leaders on the team for large part are freshman nd sophmores... almost all KEY positions are freshman and sophmores... Florida, Bama, SC and all those teams ESPN compares us too do not have this young of a team in terms of leadership... so I would def say the age thing is legit

 

[SteveM]

Pass the LSD

Pass the LSD

I argee with steve except for the class breakdown, ESPN is using that to fry us daily and it ain't cool...

how many of our seniors play??? and of those how many are any good... three, maybe four?? look at the juniors, how many play key roles??? the leaders on the team for large part are freshman nd sophmores... almost all KEY positions are freshman and sophmores... Florida, Bama, SC and all those teams ESPN compares us too do not have this young of a team in terms of leadership... so I would def say the age thing is legit

ACamp,

The logical inconsistency of this forum reminds me of the phantasmagoria here in Washington. ( I.e., the federal government is going to "rescue" Detroit by telling it what cars to make.)

It's "Charlie's a great recruiter" day in and day out with you guys. And "Charlie can develop talent." Blah, Blah, Blah. (That was a great Iggy Pop record BTW.)

Except that the junior class is totally Charlie's and the senior class? Even if they were relatively soft coming in as frosh, that's still relative. Even in an off recruiting year, ND brings enough quality to coach up more than 3 or 4 guys in a class. Unless of course the coaches can't coach up collegiate talent.

About the schedule, I agree that ND has no control over teams like MI, WA and WA State taking a dive. My point there is our guys saying 10-2 next year or else. I'm saying 10-2 next year still may not tell us enough unless ND comes out blazing and crushing throughout the schedule.

SteveM

P.S. If the government tells Detroit what cars to make, it's only a matter of time till they tell us what cars to buy.

P.P.S. Sorry for the politics. I live in a company town.

 

[mick2]

we held a team that averages 300 yds rushing a game to 80, we ran for 230, we dominated that game and we won, and if the refs called it right they wouldnt have gotten the first onside let alone two. every game i think "wow, this is the most horribly reffed game i have ever seen" and then the next week is always worse. that was a ridiculously reffed game, they tried everything they could to let navy back into it.

 

[BeatSC]

Beat Syracuse

Beat Syracuse

Good Coaching = Few Penalties
Good Coaching = Few turnovers
Good Coaching = Winning the TO battle

With that said if we can put together an all around performance to the end and not take the foot off the Orangemen's neck I think alot of us will forget the lousy ending to this game and accept that CW is getting the message. I don't see the backups getting in the game that early again unless it's against USC in a blowout. The running game and defense for 3 1/2 quarters is what we have been looking for. Also the PK is picking up.

Also, is it time for CW to let his kid sit in the stands?

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

I argee with steve except for the class breakdown, ESPN is using that to fry us daily and it ain't cool...

how many of our seniors play??? and of those how many are any good... three, maybe four?? look at the juniors, how many play key roles??? the leaders on the team for large part are freshman nd sophmores... almost all KEY positions are freshman and sophmores... Florida, Bama, SC and all those teams ESPN compares us too do not have this young of a team in terms of leadership... so I would def say the age thing is legit

Here is the list of seniors off the official ND website. The bold are players that, in my opinion, play "meaningful" minutes. Defense has a few leaders, but offense is another story. Outside of Grimes, Duncan, and Turkovich there isn't much. I don't know what this proves and I can't compare it to BC's players (mostly because I am too lazy to sit here and try to find that info), but it doesn't look like our senior leadership has too much influence. I don't know how this relates, but when you posed the question above, I wanted to find out for myself.

OFFENSE

Bemenderfer, Thomas
Duncan, Paul
Grimes, David
Kuppich, Paul
Patterson, Kris
Rodriguez, Nikolas
Schwapp, Asaph
Sharpley, Evan
Tisak, Jeff
Turkovich, Michael


DEFENSE

Anello, Mike
Brown, Justin
Bruton, David
Crum Jr., Maurice
Kuntz, Pat
Lambert, Terrail
Leonis, John
McCarthy, Kyle[/B]
Quinn, Steve
Smith, Kevin
Smith, Scott
Washington, Kevin

 

[BeatSC]

Not that our seniors are decent players but I think we might be better letting theri backups play with the exception of Bruton.

 

[phork]

we held a team that averages 300 yds rushing a game to 80, we ran for 230, we dominated that game and we won, and if the refs called it right they wouldnt have gotten the first onside let alone two. every game i think "wow, this is the most horribly reffed game i have ever seen" and then the next week is always worse. that was a ridiculously reffed game, they tried everything they could to let navy back into it.

Held them to 80 yards? Huh?

Rushing ATT YDS AVG LG TD
Eric Kettani 11 42 3.8 15 0
Jarod Bryant 10 41 4.1 9 0
Shun White 5 39 7.8 24 1
Ricky Dobbs 13 27 2.1 7 1
Cory Finnerty 1 22 22.0 22 1
Kevin Campbell 3 9 3.0 4 0
Greg Shinego 2 -2 -1.0 4 0

I think that totals 213... Did I miss something?
And if we didn't block that punt, we lose that game.
And if pigs could fly we wouldn't have bacon for breakfast....
Stop defending mediocrity.

 

[FrankMA]

Funny you should bring up Jagodzinski.

I was watching the FSU/BC game last night and it was off a feed that didn't play commercials. During some of the commercial breaks they forgot to turn off the mics in the booth, and during one of the breaks in the 4th quarter Herbie was remarking that ND should be trying to get Jagodzinski, and how he's pretty much a no-brainer for the HC job here.

Comparing Jags situation to Charlies is like comparing apples to oranges. Think back to Charlies first two years here, he had a bunch of juniors and seniors and won most games . Jags has got senior offensive and defensive lines who are strong and experienced. They talk about the quarterback, how it is his first yeat starting, and how he makes mistakes. But lets not forget it is his fifth year in the program compared to Jimmies second. We have an offensive lineman who gets hurt and is replaced by a freshman. There fifth year lineman would be replaced by a fourth year lineman.

 

[SteveM]

A&O Excuses are like...

A&O Excuses are like...

Comparing Jags situation to Charlies is like comparing apples to oranges. Think back to Charlies first two years here, he had a bunch of juniors and seniors and won most games . Jags has got senior offensive and defensive lines who are strong and experienced. They talk about the quarterback, how it is his first yeat starting, and how he makes mistakes. But lets not forget it is his fifth year in the program compared to Jimmies second. We have an offensive lineman who gets hurt and is replaced by a freshman. There fifth year lineman would be replaced by a fourth year lineman.

...And they all stink.

SteveM

P.S. Frank, we've been around A&O and it's played. Sorry...

 

[Timugen]

Comparing Jags situation to Charlies is like comparing apples to oranges. Think back to Charlies first two years here, he had a bunch of juniors and seniors and won most games . Jags has got senior offensive and defensive lines who are strong and experienced. They talk about the quarterback, how it is his first yeat starting, and how he makes mistakes. But lets not forget it is his fifth year in the program compared to Jimmies second. We have an offensive lineman who gets hurt and is replaced by a freshman. There fifth year lineman would be replaced by a fourth year lineman.

I must be missing something. Where exactly was it again that I compared [NAME REDACTED] and Jagodzinski?

 

[SoCalDomer]

Hear are the class breakouts of ND and BC from the ESPN page:

Freshman - ND: 29, BC:41
Sophs - ND: 25, BC: 23
Juniors - ND 33, BC: 22
Seniors - ND 24, BC: 17

Those numbers are absolutely meaningless. the only numbers to compare between teams are scholarship players, unless of course someone has a completely unobjective point to prove. (not you, I mean ESPN, unless you too somehow think those numbers prove anything).

Except that the junior class is totally Charlie's and the senior class? Even if they were relatively soft coming in as frosh, that's still relative. Even in an off recruiting year, ND brings enough quality to coach up more than 3 or 4 guys in a class. Unless of course the coaches can't coach up collegiate talent.

That bolded comment means nearly certain ND will have a sub-standard team when those recruits become seniors. Any team that only brings in 3-4 quality players, out of 20-25 possible recruits, will likely have a very weak senior class by the time those recruits become seniors.

If any team is only bringing in 3-4 quality guys in a "down" recruiting year, every one of them will have to pan out in order for them to have an impact in any given year. But the reality is out of a 20-25 member recruiting class full of quality players, even the top teams usually only have 5-7(20-30%) pan out to be great players. A few more might pan out to be solid players. The seniors this year and last have unfortunately proven to be solid players, but not great.

ND originally had 15 players in its 2005 class; 3 have left. So out of 12, if 20-30% of the class turns out to be great, that means instead of 5-7, ND ends up with 2-4 great players. McCarthy and Bruton are probably the only two who are on the cusp of fitting into that "great" category. Kuntz and Turkovich have proven to be solid players. So that's 4 solid-to-onethecuspofbeinggreat seniors. Historically that doesn't bode well for ND.

Blue&GoldIllustrated said last week that ND has never finished in the top 25 when the senior class recruits were not a top 10 class. While that's not a mandate, it points to a reality that without good recruiting every year, ND will not do a good job of fielding a competitive team.

While that might give people reason to want to cheer for next year (thinking the 2006 class was ranked #10), realize that 8 members of the 26 member current Jr class have left the team permanently. One more is sitting out this year.

That does not excuse what many believe are coaching deficiencies, but I don't think poor recruiting classes can be overlooked just because we're tired of other things people think are wrong with this team.

 

[SoCalDomer]

The bold are players that, in my opinion, play "meaningful" minutes. Defense has a few leaders, but offense is another story.

OFFENSE
Bemenderfer, Thomas
Duncan, Paul
Grimes, David
Kuppich, Paul
Patterson, Kris
Rodriguez, Nikolas
Schwapp, Asaph
Sharpley, Evan
Tisak, Jeff
Turkovich, Michael

DEFENSE
Anello, Mike
Brown, Justin
Bruton, David
Crum Jr., Maurice
Kuntz, Pat
Lambert, Terrail
Leonis, John
McCarthy, Kyle[/B]
Quinn, Steve
Smith, Kevin
Smith, Scott
Washington, Kevin

Paul Duncan has been hurt since the 2nd or 3rd game of the seaon and hasn't played since. I believe they may be seeking a medical redshirt for him to possibly return as a 5th yr Senior.

Mike Anello, although legendary in many circles, is a punt return and kick-off specialist. the only game he played on the defense was Washington, and unfortunately let the receiver get behind him for a score.

Grimes played this past game for the first time since North Carolina because of his back injury.

Kuppich, Patterson, Rodriguez, Tisak, and Leonis are not scholarship players, and may not even dress for games.

 

[lags24]

SoCal it was John Ryan who took out Weis.

 

[SoCalDomer]

SoCal it was John Ryan who took out Weis.

you are right, thanks.

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

Paul Duncan has been hurt since the 2nd or 3rd game of the seaon and hasn't played since. I believe they may be seeking a medical redshirt for him to possibly return as a 5th yr Senior.

Mike Anello, although legendary in many circles, is a punt return and kick-off specialist. the only game he played on the defense was Washington, and unfortunately let the receiver get behind him for a score.

Grimes played this past game for the first time since North Carolina because of his back injury.

Kuppich, Patterson, Rodriguez, Tisak, and Leonis are not scholarship players, and may not even dress for games.

That was why I said I wasn't sure what it all meant. A previous post was stating that we had all the seniors and the point I was making was, "Yeah, but..." non scholarship, not playing a bunch, etc. etc. Sure there are 20 something names on that list, but is it really indicative of our "leadership". My point was that it is not. I am sure Kuppich, Patterson, Rodriguez, Tisak, and Leonis are fine human beings, but I do not think this team would lose a great deal of leadership without them.

 

[mick2]

Held them to 80 yards? Huh?

Rushing ATT YDS AVG LG TD
Eric Kettani 11 42 3.8 15 0
Jarod Bryant 10 41 4.1 9 0
Shun White 5 39 7.8 24 1
Ricky Dobbs 13 27 2.1 7 1
Cory Finnerty 1 22 22.0 22 1
Kevin Campbell 3 9 3.0 4 0
Greg Shinego 2 -2 -1.0 4 0

I think that totals 213... Did I miss something?
And if we didn't block that punt, we lose that game.
And if pigs could fly we wouldn't have bacon for breakfast....
Stop defending mediocrity.

my fault i only looked at the rbs on espns breakdown.

The fact that we won is the main point phork. and i am not defending mediocrity i am defend the irish team that I knew was going to be a mediocre team this year and you did too, so shut the F up with that, I knew this team was going to be an 8-4, 7-5 at the worst 6-6 and they are and anyone with half a brain knew that too, so you and all of the naysayers sound so dumb right now because before the year you all predicted a mediocre or worse season, so now your all upset that we are???!?!??!??!? makes no sense bro stop Contradicting yourself.

charlie is here this and next year so shut the F up already!!!!!

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

Mike Anello, although legendary in many circles, is a punt return and kick-off specialist. the only game he played on the defense was Washington, and unfortunately let the receiver get behind him for a score.

I understand he is a kick off and punt specialist, but on the Official Website, he is listed as a defensive back. Therefore, he was included with the defense. I also stated the bolded players were the ones who, in my opinion, played "meaningful" minutes. I think Anello is quite valuable to the special teams. Just to clarify my earlier post.

 

[phork]

my fault i only looked at the rbs on espns breakdown.

The fact that we won is the main point phork. and i am not defending mediocrity i am defend the irish team that I knew was going to be a mediocre team this year and you did too, so shut the F up with that, I knew this team was going to be an 8-4, 7-5 at the worst 6-6 and they are and anyone with half a brain knew that too, so you and all of the naysayers sound so dumb right now because before the year you all predicted a mediocre or worse season, so now your all upset that we are???!?!??!??!? makes no sense bro stop Contradicting yourself.

charlie is here this and next year so shut the F up already!!!!!

I never predicted 8-4. I figured with this schedule they would be at worse 9-3. And we are a few plays from being 3-7 right now. Aside from slowly rising up in the O and D categories there hasn't been many X's & O's that we have had the advantage with. Just because our record says 6-4 doesn't mean we are even at that level.

 

[mick2]

I never predicted 8-4. I figured with this schedule they would be at worse 9-3. And we are a few plays from being 3-7 right now. Aside from slowly rising up in the O and D categories there hasn't been many X's & O's that we have had the advantage with. Just because our record says 6-4 doesn't mean we are even at that level.

a few plays away??? how come you can use that argument and it be valid but when someone says we are a few plays away from being 8-2 right now you put a post saying this:

a few plays from being 8-2 = 6-4.

once again contradiction, you are truly asinine.

your posts have proved it.

 

[ACamp1900]

Here is the list of seniors off the official ND website. The bold are players that, in my opinion, play "meaningful" minutes. Defense has a few leaders, but offense is another story. Outside of Grimes, Duncan, and Turkovich there isn't much. I don't know what this proves and I can't compare it to BC's players (mostly because I am too lazy to sit here and try to find that info), but it doesn't look like our senior leadership has too much influence. I don't know how this relates, but when you posed the question above, I wanted to find out for myself.

OFFENSE

Bemenderfer, Thomas
Duncan, Paul
Grimes, David
Kuppich, Paul
Patterson, Kris
Rodriguez, Nikolas
Schwapp, Asaph
Sharpley, Evan
Tisak, Jeff
Turkovich, Michael


DEFENSE

Anello, Mike
Brown, Justin
Bruton, David
Crum Jr., Maurice
Kuntz, Pat
Lambert, Terrail
Leonis, John
McCarthy, Kyle[/B]
Quinn, Steve
Smith, Kevin
Smith, Scott
Washington, Kevin

I think that's my point, ONE player on offense that brings a decided positive contribution... three BIG ones on D (Crum, Bru and McC) and one of those will be back next year (McC)... Brown, Kuntz, Washington get minutes and make positive contirbutions too but I would say all can be replaced from what we have now with little drop off

so, I still feel it is def. unfair to compare us to Florida, SC, Bama and all thesee other schools who are apparently so much younger than we are... on their entire roster fine... but among those who make plays and win or lose games we are far younger...


again, ASIDE from that I agree, even with Steves copoint on recruiting, which I felt had little relevence when used as such... but there you have it

 

[phork]

a few plays away??? how come you can use that argument and it be valid but when someone says we are a few plays away from being 8-2 right now you put a post saying this:

a few plays from being 8-2 = 6-4.

once again contradiction, you are truly asinine.

your posts have proved it.

I just use other people's logic, because its clear to me that you don't want to listen to a word I say. Anyone can use this arguement in their favor. Few plays from 8-2, a few plays from 3-7. Reality is, we are closer to a few plays from 3-7 than 8-2.

I will no longer reply to these posts. Clearly the horse has been beaten, and its long dead. I think most of us will agree that anything less than 10 Wins (I say 11) and a BCS game is a failure and a new coach should be brought it.

 

[mick2]

I just use other people's logic, because its clear to me that you don't want to listen to a word I say. Anyone can use this arguement in their favor. Few plays from 8-2, a few plays from 3-7. Reality is, we are closer to a few plays from 3-7 than 8-2.

I will no longer reply to these posts. Clearly the horse has been beaten, and its long dead. I think most of us will agree that anything less than 10 Wins (I say 11) and a BCS game is a failure and a new coach should be brought it.

I was gonna write something but i decided your not worth my time, just a typical contradicting poster who will try and twist anything into a negative ND/CW bash fest.

 

[phork]

Why is my opinion negative? Am I missing something in ND football that you are seeing? I am angry because ND deserves better, is Charlie the answer? Next year will tell his tale. But the fact of the matter is I am not the only one who shares this opinion.