Trump Presidency Round 2

[Bluto]

Why is it some rich person's responsibility to pay for someone else's healthcare... or anything else for that matter? What gives you the right to someone else's money or property?

Why even have an organized and civil society. Cool!

The main reason is to avoid the cycle of violence that history has shown inevitably occurs when the distribution of resources becomes tilted too far towards the rich and powerful.

Everyone thinks they aren’t gonna be the one getting the guillotine or a bullet to the head when shit goes sideways until they do.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Why even have an organized and civil society. Cool! The main reason is to avoid the cycle of violence that history has shown inevitably occurs when the distribution of resources becomes tilted too far towards the rich and powerful. Everyone thinks they aren’t gonna be the one getting the guillotine or a bullet to the head when shit goes sideways until they do.

So the threat of armed violence. Impressive. Sounds a lot like getting mugged. "Give me your stuff or I'll hurt you." You have no right to anyone else's property. Period. Any attempt to seize someone else's property, especially by force or the threat of force, is just theft.

 

[Irish#1]

I want everyone to have access to affordable healthcare. But I don't want any president to send letters to heads of companies and say lower your prices or else. It goes against my belief in a small limited government. I believe there's much better ways to accomplish lowering prices thru deregulation and changing how medical patents operate.

How’s that working so far?

 

[Irish#1]

LOL

Isn’t this the same person who over inflated Biden’s numbers only to have to republish with a significant reduction?

 

[Irish#1]

Why even have an organized and civil society. Cool!

The main reason is to avoid the cycle of violence that history has shown inevitably occurs when the distribution of resources becomes tilted too far towards the rich and powerful.

Everyone thinks they aren’t gonna be the one getting the guillotine or a bullet to the head when shit goes sideways until they do.

Ever since the Industrial Revolution we’ve had a distribution of wealth. So far so good.

 

[LifelongFan]

MAHA

 

[Bluto]

So the threat of armed violence. Impressive. Sounds a lot like getting mugged. "Give me your stuff or I'll hurt you." You have no right to anyone else's property. Period. Any attempt to seize someone else's property, especially by force or the threat of force, is just theft.

Completely different argument and ironically enough criminality, violence and theft played a large role in how many have made their fortunes in the US but again that is a different topic.

Now, as to violence being the inevitable result of inequitable distribution of resources and power that’s not a threat it’s a conclusion based on the historic record.

Based on your initial statement it sounds like you are arguing that there should be no taxes on anybody to support any shared public resource(s). That’s a pretty ridiculous position in my opinion particularly coming from someone who apparently attend a public university.

 

[Bluto]

Ever since the Industrial Revolution we’ve had a distribution of wealth. So far so good.

Uhhh…yeah. That’s not even close to being true. The post industrialization era in America was very violent.

The biggest examples would be the post civil war South under Jim Crow and the repeated violent acts committed against Native Americans in order to extract resources.

I think you also need to go back and reread some of the history associated with the union movements in this country. It was extremely violent and lasted well into the 1970’s.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Completely different argument and ironically enough criminality, violence and theft played a large role in how many have made their fortunes in the US but again that is a different topic.

Now, as to violence being the inevitable result of inequitable distribution of resources and power that’s not a threat it’s a conclusion based on the historic record.

Based on your initial statement it sounds like you are arguing that there should be no taxes on anybody to support any shared public resource(s). That’s a pretty ridiculous position in my opinion particularly coming from someone who attend a public university.

No, as onerous and oppressive as the tax system can be, I agree that there are some public services and works that are necessary. We can quibble about how to fund those, but I'll stipulate that some of them are necessary. What I'm against is wealth distribution via government. It historically starts as a social safety net that most are willing to support in the name of decency and good will towards their fellow citizen, but invariably turns into a welfare state and a means for politicians to buy votes in exchange for a share of others' wealth.

If I choose to donate to a charity, support a friend or family member in need, help a stranger, or so on, that's great, but I don't have an obligation to support someone else's family, especially against my will. Nobody has a right to my income, my wealth, the product of my mind or effort, or anything else of mine other than those I've freely chosen to be obligated to, such as my family. Everything else is forced wealth distribution, which is just a form of theft. There's a word for forcing someone to work against their will for others. It's called slavery.

 

[NDWarrior]

We can quibble about how to fund those, but I'll stipulate that some of them are necessary.

That's been the country's ongoing debate in the post industrial era, to what extent do we become more of a Social Democracy when required (Depression/WWII, Covid, etc.) vs. when do we deregulate and reduce government when not needed or a change of direction is required to jump start things (Reagan's ascendancy out of 70's stagflation, Bill Clinton's deregulation in the 90s); there's been a certain stable flexibility to our two-party system and progressive/conservative seesaw, at times, tilting in either direction as needed.

I would submit that the current admin is dismantling that system that has mostly worked to date in the name of draining the swamp, rolling back excessive entitlements, and runaway extreme social values that need to be crushed. IMO (any many others), what they are doing is leading the way to complete autocratic control and a government and society dominated by white Christian Nationalist values where "order" is set in place by lawfare and policed by ICE. The New Right - led by Trump and his mega-Maga manipulations - were able to successfully polarize the left and right, and weaponize the right (Maga nation) to such an extent, with the help of Tech Bros. $ billions and manipulation, that they finally were able to smash this delicate balance of our up-to-now Liberal Pluralist Democracy and convert it to a runaway autocracy that suffocates the country a little more each day.

Everything else is forced wealth distribution, which is just a form of theft. There's a word for forcing someone to work against their will for others. It's called slavery.

Ironically, one of the tenets of this growing Autocracy is forced wealth distribution, but, unfortunately, in the opposite direction where the Tech Bros. and American Oligarchs are getting richer and the middle class and poor are absolutely getting crushed - See Reconciliation Bills and Rescission Packages that are not scheduled to end btw. Just as Ironic is that these same middle class Americans are being effectively forced - via student loan crackdown, tariff inflation, lost immigrant workforce - into a kind of modern slavery that is dependent upon doing what they're told in return for financial relief; and lower-class immigrant Americans are being violently forced - if not out of the country - into internment camps and forced labor that is imposed on them in return for their basic survival.

IMO, there is no other way to see what's going on right now - It's just that many of you have yet to feel its oppression bearing down on you. As my mother-in-law would always say, "it will come."

(Queue up Bishop's LOL emoji...)

 

[Bishop2b5]

Just as Ironic is that these same middle class Americans are being effectively forced - via student loan crackdown, tariff inflation, lost immigrant workforce - into a kind of modern slavery that is dependent upon doing what they're told in return for financial relief; and lower-class immigrant Americans are being violently forced - if not out of the country - into internment camps and forced labor that is imposed on them in return for their basic survival.

Most of your post was idiotic nonsense... just far left mushy rhetoric that doesn't even merit a reply. This part, however, made me laugh... especially the student loan crackdown and forced labor internment camps. Being forced to repay your student loans - you mean like everyone else has had to do for generations? You take out a loan for school, a house, a car, a business, whatever, and you repay it. Period. It's called being a responsible adult.

No lower class immigrant Americans are being forced out of the country. People who violated our immigration laws and came here illegally are being sent back, just as they would be in virtually every other country in the world. Don't come here illegally.

Internment camp forced labor??? FFS, stop with the made-up nonsense and silly drama.

 

[Bluto]

Most of your post was idiotic nonsense... just far left mushy rhetoric that doesn't even merit a reply. This part, however, made me laugh... especially the student loan crackdown and forced labor internment camps. Being forced to repay your student loans - you mean like everyone else has had to do for generations? You take out a loan for school, a house, a car, a business, whatever, and you repay it. Period. It's called being a responsible adult.

No lower class immigrant Americans are being forced out of the country. People who violated our immigration laws and came here illegally are being sent back, just as they would be in virtually every other country in the world. Don't come here illegally.

Internment camp forced labor??? FFS, stop with the made-up nonsense and silly drama.

Solid retort.

So to summarize your position “I hate taxes but agree we need taxes but only taxes that fund things I like or else it’s slavery”.

That, like most of the things you post and positions you stake out is completely nonsensical.

Nevermind not addressing how to limit the power that has been accumulated by people like the tech bros who have completely insane and anti democratic/ anti Catholic ideas regarding how society should be structured.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Solid retort.

So to summarize your position “I hate taxes but agree we need taxes but only taxes that fund things I like or else it’s slavery”.

I see you've been taking strawman classes from Toronto.

 

[Bluto]

I see you've been taking strawman classes from Toronto.

I don’t think you understand what a strawman argument is.

I’m not over simplifying your arguments I’m summarizing what your stated position is. Your posts are riddled with contradictions (and ad hominem attacks) that make it hard to even understand what you are advocating for. Again, they’re completely nonsensical.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I don’t think you understand what a strawman argument is.

I’m simply summarizing what your stated position is. You’re posts are riddled with contradictions that make it hard to understand what you are even advocating for.

No, you're unable to effectively argue against my actual stated position so you purposely misrepresent it to make it easier to attack. That you need to do so is quite revealing. See, I clearly understand what a strawman argument is and why you use them.

 

[Bluto]

No, you're unable to effectively argue against my actual stated position so you purposely misrepresent it to make it easier to attack. That you need to do so is quite revealing. See, I clearly understand what a strawman argument is and why you use them.

Nope.

You concede that taxes are necessary to fund various things but then post:

“Nobody has a right to my income, my wealth, the product of my mind or effort, or anything else of mine other than those I've freely chosen to be obligated to, such as my family. Everything else is forced wealth distribution, which is just a form of theft. There's a word for forcing someone to work against their will for others. It's called slavery.”

Again, you seem to be stating that the government (anybody) does not have the right to tax you (your income, wealth, intellectual property or the value of your labor) unless you agree with it 100% otherwise it’s tantamount to theft and slavery.

That’s a complete contradiction, ridiculous and overly dramatic.

You directly benefited from the very social/economic structure that you now seem to be advocating against.

That’s pretty moronic.

 

[Bluto]

We can quibble about how to fund those, but I'll stipulate that some of them are necessary.

That's been the country's ongoing debate in the post industrial era, to what extent do we become more of a Social Democracy when required (Depression/WWII, Covid, etc.) vs. when do we deregulate and reduce government when not needed or a change of direction is required to jump start things (Reagan's ascendancy out of 70's stagflation, Bill Clinton's deregulation in the 90s); there's been a certain stable flexibility to our two-party system and progressive/conservative seesaw, at times, tilting in either direction as needed.

I would submit that the current admin is dismantling that system that has mostly worked to date in the name of draining the swamp, rolling back excessive entitlements, and runaway extreme social values that need to be crushed. IMO (any many others), what they are doing is leading the way to complete autocratic control and a government and society dominated by white Christian Nationalist values where "order" is set in place by lawfare and policed by ICE. The New Right - led by Trump and his mega-Maga manipulations - were able to successfully polarize the left and right, and weaponize the right (Maga nation) to such an extent, with the help of Tech Bros. $ billions and manipulation, that they finally were able to smash this delicate balance of our up-to-now Liberal Pluralist Democracy and convert it to a runaway autocracy that suffocates the country a little more each day.

Everything else is forced wealth distribution, which is just a form of theft. There's a word for forcing someone to work against their will for others. It's called slavery.

Ironically, one of the tenets of this growing Autocracy is forced wealth distribution, but, unfortunately, in the opposite direction where the Tech Bros. and American Oligarchs are getting richer and the middle class and poor are absolutely getting crushed - See Reconciliation Bills and Rescission Packages that are not scheduled to end btw. Just as Ironic is that these same middle class Americans are being effectively forced - via student loan crackdown, tariff inflation, lost immigrant workforce - into a kind of modern slavery that is dependent upon doing what they're told in return for financial relief; and lower-class immigrant Americans are being violently forced - if not out of the country - into internment camps and forced labor that is imposed on them in return for their basic survival.

IMO, there is no other way to see what's going on right now - It's just that many of you have yet to feel its oppression bearing down on you. As my mother-in-law would always say, "it will come."

(Queue up Bishop's LOL emoji...)

The tech bros have the most fucked up ideas about how society should be structured.

Shit is legitimately insane.



“But Sam at one point spells out his sort of like what he's floating as how to deal with the AI revolution in which, you know, many jobs, most of human labor is rendered basically irrelevant.

And he spells, I mean, you should listen to what he has in mind. It's basically like a one world government, new world order. We all have, you know, these chits that we can like buy and trade with each other that come out of the, you know, benevolence of Sam and the other tech overlords who are going to allot us our certain number of chits.”

From Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar: 7/31/25: Trump Goes Nuclear On Stock Ban, Big Pharma Ousts Top MAHA Official, Sam Altman Warning On ChatGPT, New Corbyn Party, Mearsheimer Says Gaza Is Genocide, Jul 31, 2025

This material may be protected by copyright.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Nope.

You concede that taxes are necessary to fund various things but then post:

“Nobody has a right to my income, my wealth, the product of my mind or effort, or anything else of mine other than those I've freely chosen to be obligated to, such as my family. Everything else is forced wealth distribution, which is just a form of theft. There's a word for forcing someone to work against their will for others. It's called slavery.”

Again, you seem to be stating that the government (anybody) does not have the right to tax you (your income, wealth, intellectual property or the value of your labor) unless you agree with it 100% otherwise it’s tantamount to theft and slavery.

That’s a complete contradiction, ridiculous and overly dramatic.

You directly benefited from the very social/economic structure that you now seem to be advocating against.

That’s pretty moronic.

I said that I accept that some taxes are necessary to fund certain public services and works (such as police, military, schools, and streets, e.g.), but I'm against using taxation to engage in wealth redistribution (such as buying the votes of the poor by promising them free stuff). No more, no less. Any attempt to reframe my position otherwise is a sign of dishonesty or stupidity on your part. You choose.

 

[Bluto]

I said that I accept that some taxes are necessary to fund certain public services and works (such as police, military, schools, and streets, e.g.), but I'm against using taxation to engage in wealth redistribution (such as buying the votes of the poor by promising them free stuff). No more, no less. Any attempt to reframe my position otherwise is a sign of dishonesty or stupidity on your part. You choose.

Using taxes to fund anything, be it the police, military, schools, streets etc is “wealth redistribution”. You are taking money from one group and using it to pay for and or subsidize another group and or the public commons.

So you’re not against “wealth redistribution”.

You’re against “wealth redistribution” that you find personally offensive for whatever reason and if it doesn’t fit your personal definition it’s oppressive and comparable to “theft” and “slavery”.

This whole Ayn Rand informed worldview is stupid.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Using taxes to fund anything, be it the police, military, schools, streets etc is “wealth redistribution”. You are taking money from one group and using it to pay for and or subsidize another group.

So you’re not against “wealth redistribution”.

You’re against “wealth redistribution” that you find personally offensive for whatever reason and if it doesn’t fit your personal definition it’s oppressive and comparable to “theft” and “slavery”.

Right. Providing police and streets and basic education are public services for everyone, not wealth redistribution to a select group whose vote you seek to purchase. You're trying too hard. I said what I meant. You trying to intentionally misrepresent my position is telling, but go ahead.

 

[Bluto]

Right. Providing police and streets and basic education are public services for everyone, not wealth redistribution to a select group whose vote you seek to purchase. You're trying too hard. I said what I meant. You trying to intentionally misrepresent my position is telling, but go ahead.

Nope.

Taking money from the wealthy vis a vis taxation to pay for police, fire fighters, teachers, public schools, roads and anything else is by definition “wealth redistribution”. You are taking resources from A to support B.

It is a fairly recent development in the US historically speaking and was one of the cornerstones of the New Deal (which right wingers hate).

It’s pretty easy to articulate. You seem to be having a hard time understanding some pretty basic concepts.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Nope.

Taking money from the wealthy vis a vis taxation to pay for police, fire fighters, teachers, public schools, roads and anything else is by definition “wealth redistribution”. You are taking resources from A to support B.

It is a fairly recent development in the US historically speaking and was one of the cornerstones of New Deal politics (which right wingers hate).

It’s pretty easy to articulate. You seem to be having a hard time understanding some pretty basic concepts.

Nah, I just know intentional dishonesty and strawman arguing when I see it. Come back when you want to discuss something seriously and honestly.

 

[Bluto]

Nah, I just know intentional dishonesty and strawman arguing when I see it. Come back when you want to discuss something seriously and honestly.

Ok sure.

Redistribution isn’t redistribution because I say so.

That’s an honest argument.

You’re just kinda full of shit. Lol.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Ok sure.

Redistribution isn’t redistribution because I say so.

That’s an honest argument.

You’re just kinda full of shit. Lol.

You've spent half the day intentionally misrepresenting my position and what I said. We know who's actually kinda full of shit.

 

[NDWarrior]

Most of your post was idiotic nonsense... just far left mushy rhetoric that doesn't even merit a reply. This part, however, made me laugh... especially the student loan crackdown and forced labor internment camps. Being forced to repay your student loans - you mean like everyone else has had to do for generations? You take out a loan for school, a house, a car, a business, whatever, and you repay it. Period. It's called being a responsible adult.

No lower class immigrant Americans are being forced out of the country. People who violated our immigration laws and came here illegally are being sent back, just as they would be in virtually every other country in the world. Don't come here illegally.

Internment camp forced labor??? FFS, stop with the made-up nonsense and silly drama.

Most of your post was idiotic nonsense... just far left mushy rhetoric that doesn't even merit a reply.

Your opinion and that's fine.

This part, however, made me laugh... especially the student loan crackdown and forced labor internment camps. Being forced to repay your student loans - you mean like everyone else has had to do for generations? You take out a loan for school, a house, a car, a business, whatever, and you repay it. Period. It's called being a responsible adult.

Nice guess at what I meant by crackdown... By crackdown, I meant that the pretend Education Secretary and the admin are eliminating plans - like the SAVE plan - that were put in place to make loan repayment more affordable and creating new ones that require much higher payments. And last I heard, loan forgiveness (in return for non-profit or govt work) is up in the air or if maintained, will require a lot more years of repayment. Loan payments for many are liable to doubling and maybe even tripling; Again, I think a lot of this is still being worked out. Sure, I used some liberties in language, including "modern-day slavery," meaning I truly believe the admin wants to trap a lot of people rendering them lower class, struggling, and compliant. It's also interesting the latest student loan enticement is to offer those becoming ICE agents student loan forgiveness in return for their ICE work. Again, this admin is all about using leverage - laws, financial pressure, withhold funding - to make those threatening them compliant.

No lower class immigrant Americans are being forced out of the country. People who violated our immigration laws and came here illegally are being sent back, just as they would be in virtually every other country in the world. Don't come here illegally.

You know as well as I do, there is a lot more going on here - Legal immigrants and/or those that were in the process of working towards green cards the right and doing things the legal, right way are still being detained and sent to ICE facilities; there even have been reported incidents of legal citizens being detained; sometimes they are eventually released and sometimes not. And, about 10% (is being reported) of the immigrants are being sent to dangerous places like Sudan where they are in danger, and not their home countries. Personally, I still don't get the fuss? Sure, the criminal immigrants need to be deported, and those who have ignored the laws and have not tried to get green card the right way, have opened themselves to being deported, but so many more than that have been deported and the reality is that these minding their own business immigrants, working and paying taxes, are also not taking jobs Americans would take, nor are they freeloading on the welfare state; and due to deportation threat, they're not likely to be committing crimes that will almost certainly boot them out of the country. Instead, the real reason is that the Christian Nationalist-influenced admin, just doesn't want brown folks in the country as they are just too different and will never be white and European-descended Christians; as can be seen by Stephen Miller's ridiculous rhetoric, essentially calling all brown immigrants "pedo sex offenders."

Internment camp forced labor??? FFS, stop with the made-up nonsense and silly drama.

Just google it and see the AI-driven response:

"In some instances, immigrants in ICE detention centers may participate in a "Voluntary Work Program" where they perform tasks such as cooking, cleaning, and laundry. These individuals are typically compensated at a rate of at least $1 per day, with some reports indicating they may be paid up to $3 daily.

However, the "voluntary" nature of these programs has been disputed, as numerous reports allege that some immigrants are coerced into working under threat of retaliation, such as solitary confinement, or in exchange for basic necessities like food and hygiene products. Some accounts suggest that detainees may experience insufficient food rations and are forced to work to earn money to supplement their meals through the commissary."

And this existence-level pay for work is making the two top prison companies who are running most of these ICE facilities a boat-load shit of $ (GEO Group and CoreCivic) running a nice little business with "little to no state or local oversight of federal immigration detention operations."

For-profit immigration detention expands as Trump accelerates his deportation plans • Stateline
Could People in ICE Detention Centers Be Forced to Work in Slaughterhouses?

So again, it's effective slavery, and meant to also force detained immigrants to sign off on voluntarily being deported immediately at their own cost, making that option highly unrealistic anyway.

 

[Irish#1]

I truly believe the admin wants to trap a lot of people rendering them lower class, struggling, and compliant.

 

[TorontoGold]

Nope.

Taking money from the wealthy vis a vis taxation to pay for police, fire fighters, teachers, public schools, roads and anything else is by definition “wealth redistribution”. You are taking resources from A to support B.

It is a fairly recent development in the US historically speaking and was one of the cornerstones of the New Deal (which right wingers hate).

It’s pretty easy to articulate. You seem to be having a hard time understanding some pretty basic concepts.

You just know that he's going to burst out the ITS A REPUBLIC NOT A DEMOCRACY ITS A REPUBLIC!!!!! Usually the final piece of any "I don't understand basic civics and just become a temu Rush Limbaugh" trope.

 

[LifelongFan]

America First!

 

[Fbolt]

^Problematic. And stupid.

 

[GATTACA!]

Trump Administration Won’t Say Why It Transferred Ghislaine Maxwell To A Minimum-Security Prison

The White House denied that Jeffrey Epstein’s accomplice has received preferential treatment.

www.huffpost.com