Religion

[ulukinatme]

Funny how you said you want the pope to go back to more traditional views and then criticize the newest translations of the mass and Nicene Creed which were made because those translations are more traditional and historically accurate translations and which were changed during Pope Benedict XVI who was the most conservative pope in modern history.

The translations fell somewhere between pointless and ridiculous. They did nothing to enhance the prayers or provide better context, they simply made them more convoluted and served to make the congregation's responses sound more archaic.

For instance, the start of the Nicene Creed from 1970-2011 was originally:
"We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen."
It was changed to:
"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible."
Pointless change, it really doesn't change the meaning unless you're suggesting a 12th level Wizard is walking around casting Invisibility spells. Seen/Visible and Unseen/Invisible are essentially synonyms otherwise.

We also have:
"begotten not made, one in being with the Father."
was changed to:
"begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;"
Consubstantial?! Consubstantial is entirely a word that comes from theology, so unless you study most people probably have no idea what it means. It means "of the same essence" or "substance"...kind of like "One in being with the Father," no? Another pointless change, and a downgrade if anything because it just means a lot of people are regurgitating something that they have no understanding of the definition, so why even say it?

There's more in there, but I'll do one more:
"by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary and became man."
was changed to:
"by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man."
Again, another pointless change. Incarnate is a less fancy word than consubstantial, but it's still completely unnecessary. Incarnate is to assume a physical (usually human) form, typically from a deity/supernatural being. Prayer should be earnest, it shouldn't require a dictionary. Saying he was born of the Virgin Mary and became man is clear and concise, there was no need to change it.

Those are just some of the unnecessary changes to the Nicene Creed. There was no lost meaning in the original translations. What it amounts to was probably some young theologian straight out of school probably redid the translations and took the most literal examples, word for word. The 1970 translation flows better and makes more sense to any English speaking person who was born after the 1800s.


Then there's the mass changes. This one has always been a big sticking point. It used to be after the gifts were brought up we'd have the exchange:
Priest: "The Lord be with you."
Congregation: "And also with you."
Priest: "Life up your hearts."
Congregation: "We lift them up to the Lord."
Priest: "Let us give thanks to the Lord our God."
Congregation: "It is right to give Him thanks and praise."

Now it's:
Priest: "The Lord be with you."
Congregation: "And with your spirit."
Priest: "Lift up your hearts."
Congregation: "We lift them up to the Lord."
Priest: "Let us give thanks to the Lord, our God."
Congregation: "It is right and just."

"And with your spirit." Who says that? Nobody. It sounds like a crazy person's response. "And also with you" was a perfectly fine response. Then you've got the "It is right and just." 'Just' generally translates to "morally right" which is essentially repetitious when we've already said "It is right" preceding that. Again, it just flows better in the original and makes more sense: "It is right to give Him thanks and praise."

It may interest some people to know that a lot of other Christians use that same Preface before their Eucharistic prayer (The first one I listed, the one prior to the change in the 2000s). Lutherans and Methodists in particular use the same wording Catholics used to have. In true fashion, the church went back in time to make our responses during mass sound more cringey and cultish, a great way to alienate possible new converts.

 

[BuaConstrictor]

The translations fell somewhere between pointless and ridiculous. They did nothing to enhance the prayers or provide better context, they simply made them more convoluted and served to make the congregation's responses sound more archaic.

Local man wants Catholic Church to be "more traditional" but only when it makes sense to him.

 

[Irish du Nord]

The translations fell somewhere between pointless and ridiculous. They did nothing to enhance the prayers or provide better context, they simply made them more convoluted and served to make the congregation's responses sound more archaic.

For instance, the start of the Nicene Creed from 1970-2011 was originally:
"We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen."
It was changed to:
"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible."
Pointless change, it really doesn't change the meaning unless you're suggesting a 12th level Wizard is walking around casting Invisibility spells. Seen/Visible and Unseen/Invisible are essentially synonyms otherwise.

We also have:
"begotten not made, one in being with the Father."
was changed to:
"begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;"
Consubstantial?! Consubstantial is entirely a word that comes from theology, so unless you study most people probably have no idea what it means. It means "of the same essence" or "substance"...kind of like "One in being with the Father," no? Another pointless change, and a downgrade if anything because it just means a lot of people are regurgitating something that they have no understanding of the definition, so why even say it?

There's more in there, but I'll do one more:
"by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary and became man."
was changed to:
"by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man."
Again, another pointless change. Incarnate is a less fancy word than consubstantial, but it's still completely unnecessary. Incarnate is to assume a physical (usually human) form, typically from a deity/supernatural being. Prayer should be earnest, it shouldn't require a dictionary. Saying he was born of the Virgin Mary and became man is clear and concise, there was no need to change it.

Those are just some of the unnecessary changes to the Nicene Creed. There was no lost meaning in the original translations. What it amounts to was probably some young theologian straight out of school probably redid the translations and took the most literal examples, word for word. The 1970 translation flows better and makes more sense to any English speaking person who was born after the 1800s.


Then there's the mass changes. This one has always been a big sticking point. It used to be after the gifts were brought up we'd have the exchange:
Priest: "The Lord be with you."
Congregation: "And also with you."
Priest: "Life up your hearts."
Congregation: "We lift them up to the Lord."
Priest: "Let us give thanks to the Lord our God."
Congregation: "It is right to give Him thanks and praise."

Now it's:
Priest: "The Lord be with you."
Congregation: "And with your spirit."
Priest: "Lift up your hearts."
Congregation: "We lift them up to the Lord."
Priest: "Let us give thanks to the Lord, our God."
Congregation: "It is right and just."

"And with your spirit." Who says that? Nobody. It sounds like a crazy person's response. "And also with you" was a perfectly fine response. Then you've got the "It is right and just." 'Just' generally translates to "morally right" which is essentially repetitious when we've already said "It is right" preceding that. Again, it just flows better in the original and makes more sense: "It is right to give Him thanks and praise."

It may interest some people to know that a lot of other Christians use that same Preface before their Eucharistic prayer (The first one I listed, the one prior to the change in the 2000s). Lutherans and Methodists in particular use the same wording Catholics used to have. In true fashion, the church went back in time to make our responses during mass sound more cringey and cultish, a great way to alienate possible new converts.

Part of being a Catholic is that tradition matters and words matter. We don't base our prayers on how most people talk, we base it on the tradition instituted by the apostles. When it comes to the Missal, accuracy and consistency are more important than replicating everyday speech.

 

[BuaConstrictor]

He's critical of the US working to secure it's borders, and yet Vatican City has 36 foot tall walls, and you've got to go through security to get inside along with needing authorization/tickets

First off, he was critical of the rhetoric the US was using around securing the border. He was questioning the attitude and the motives.

To touch on this further.....you are advocating that the US should take our immigration cues from Vatican City...a "country" with a land mass of less than a quarter square mile and less than 1,000 inhabitants?

Have you ever stopped to ask why the Vatican has the immigration policy they have? Have you ever considered it?

What else should we take from Vatican City? Should we be a monarchy under the Holy See?

Vatican City doesn't have it's own healthcare system, BUT they do use Italy's free healthcare system. Can we do free Universal healthcare here in the states? They also do free healthcare screenings of the poorest Italians and Romans in their population/area. Can we do that?

Just wanting to see where the line is on what we are going to copy from the Vatican.

 

[BuaConstrictor]

Part of being a Catholic is that tradition matters and words matter. We don't base our prayers on how most people talk, we base it on the tradition instituted by the apostles. When it comes to the Missal, accuracy and consistency are more important than replicating everyday speech.

"Peace be with you."
"Bet."

 

[NDpendent]

The translations fell somewhere between pointless and ridiculous. They did nothing to enhance the prayers or provide better context, they simply made them more convoluted and served to make the congregation's responses sound more archaic.

For instance, the start of the Nicene Creed from 1970-2011 was originally:
"We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen."
It was changed to:
"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible."
Pointless change, it really doesn't change the meaning unless you're suggesting a 12th level Wizard is walking around casting Invisibility spells. Seen/Visible and Unseen/Invisible are essentially synonyms otherwise.

We also have:
"begotten not made, one in being with the Father."
was changed to:
"begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;"
Consubstantial?! Consubstantial is entirely a word that comes from theology, so unless you study most people probably have no idea what it means. It means "of the same essence" or "substance"...kind of like "One in being with the Father," no? Another pointless change, and a downgrade if anything because it just means a lot of people are regurgitating something that they have no understanding of the definition, so why even say it?

There's more in there, but I'll do one more:
"by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary and became man."
was changed to:
"by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man."
Again, another pointless change. Incarnate is a less fancy word than consubstantial, but it's still completely unnecessary. Incarnate is to assume a physical (usually human) form, typically from a deity/supernatural being. Prayer should be earnest, it shouldn't require a dictionary. Saying he was born of the Virgin Mary and became man is clear and concise, there was no need to change it.

Those are just some of the unnecessary changes to the Nicene Creed. There was no lost meaning in the original translations. What it amounts to was probably some young theologian straight out of school probably redid the translations and took the most literal examples, word for word. The 1970 translation flows better and makes more sense to any English speaking person who was born after the 1800s.


Then there's the mass changes. This one has always been a big sticking point. It used to be after the gifts were brought up we'd have the exchange:
Priest: "The Lord be with you."
Congregation: "And also with you."
Priest: "Life up your hearts."
Congregation: "We lift them up to the Lord."
Priest: "Let us give thanks to the Lord our God."
Congregation: "It is right to give Him thanks and praise."

Now it's:
Priest: "The Lord be with you."
Congregation: "And with your spirit."
Priest: "Lift up your hearts."
Congregation: "We lift them up to the Lord."
Priest: "Let us give thanks to the Lord, our God."
Congregation: "It is right and just."

"And with your spirit." Who says that? Nobody. It sounds like a crazy person's response. "And also with you" was a perfectly fine response. Then you've got the "It is right and just." 'Just' generally translates to "morally right" which is essentially repetitious when we've already said "It is right" preceding that. Again, it just flows better in the original and makes more sense: "It is right to give Him thanks and praise."

It may interest some people to know that a lot of other Christians use that same Preface before their Eucharistic prayer (The first one I listed, the one prior to the change in the 2000s). Lutherans and Methodists in particular use the same wording Catholics used to have. In true fashion, the church went back in time to make our responses during mass sound more cringey and cultish, a great way to alienate possible new converts.

Words are not pointless and ridiculous. When the mass was translated from Latin to English many of the words in Latin did match how they originally translated it in English and the changes in 2011 when an attempt to bring words back closer to how masses have been said for a couple thousand years. I do not have the time to break down each individual change however there are people who are much smarter then me who have wrote extensively on the importance of each change.
As for your last comment, we aren't Lutherans or Methodists, why should we change the way Mass as been said for thousands of years to attempt to be like them? You might not feel the words are important but contrary to your statement, the Catholic Church is seeing a boom across the US and many other countries right in converts to the Church, many of whom are seeking a more traditional liturgical service. In the 60s-80s we saw the Catholic Church try to seem more Protestant and many left the church during that time, now as the church is focusing more on their Catholic identity and becoming more traditional again we are seeing a massive boom. We had over 30 adults at my parish enter the Catholic Church this Easter, we have a very conservative priest and traditional service. You might not like the changes but it is resonating with a lot of converts.

 

[BuaConstrictor]

I do not have the time to break down each individual change however there are people who are much smarter then me who have wrote extensively on the importance of each change.

Good overview here

 

[BleedBlueGold]

We had 77 enter our parish this past weekend. During OCIA, a large majority of them cited the Church's Traditions (T) and traditions (t) as being a large motivator in their conversion. Growing up evangelical, non-denominational, the Catholic Church's commitment to Sacred Tradition passed down from Jesus to the apostles, and so on, is one of the most refreshing things I've experienced. 44-plus-thousand "ala carte" Christian denominations in the US alone, personally, to me, was the most off-putting thing I experienced as a kid growing up. Bouncing around from church to church as my parents tried to find where they felt most comfortable and where their beliefs most closely aligned to what that particular church was teaching. Nevermind my own questions during that time period of "yeah, but what did Jesus, the apostles, and the first Christians believe? Shouldn't we focus on that?" I was raised in a place of quite a bit of anti-Catholic rhetoric, so the idea of actually doing my own research didn't occur to me until much later in life. However, my dad joked recently, "It's probably nice to have one Pope versus 44,000 Popes, isn't it?"

 

[Punky]

Depends on your tradition. There are 24 churches in communion with Rome, the Latin Rite church and 23 Eastern Rite churches. Some of the Eastern Rite churches under Rome allow married clergy, unlike the Latin Rite, yet you can still go to those services to fulfill your Sunday obligation. Not too far from me is a Romanian Byzantine Catholic church, that uses the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom. It is chanted, lots of incense, icons all over the place, so somewhat similar to an Orthodox service, but since they are under the Pope, all is good if I go to that service on Sunday instead of my local parish church. The Catholic church is very diverse. What one person wants as traditional, another may find bizarre or uncomfortable.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Depends on your tradition. There are 24 churches in communion with Rome, the Latin Rite church and 23 Eastern Rite churches. Some of the Eastern Rite churches under Rome allow married clergy, unlike the Latin Rite, yet you can still go to those services to fulfill your Sunday obligation. Not too far from me is a Romanian Byzantine Catholic church, that uses the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom. It is chanted, lots of incense, icons all over the place, so somewhat similar to an Orthodox service, but since they are under the Pope, all is good if I go to that service on Sunday instead of my local parish church. The Catholic church is very diverse. What one person wants as traditional, another may find bizarre or uncomfortable.

Fair. Excuse the newb ignorance...but are you referring to the "t" traditions of these churches still in communion with Rome? Are the "T" Traditions still the same? The teachings, dogmas, doctrine, etc.

 

[NDpendent]

Fair. Excuse the newb ignorance...but are you referring to the "t" traditions of these churches still in communion with Rome? Are the "T" Traditions still the same? The teachings, dogmas, doctrine, etc.

Correct, "T" traditions are the same.

 

[Irish du Nord]

Fair. Excuse the newb ignorance...but are you referring to the "t" traditions of these churches still in communion with Rome? Are the "T" Traditions still the same? The teachings, dogmas, doctrine, etc.

There are some areas of potential convergence (e.g. I think Greek Catholics don't endorse the filioque) but they are in full communion with Rome.

 

[MNIrishman]

The translations fell somewhere between pointless and ridiculous. They did nothing to enhance the prayers or provide better context, they simply made them more convoluted and served to make the congregation's responses sound more archaic.

For instance, the start of the Nicene Creed from 1970-2011 was originally:
"We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen."
It was changed to:
"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible."
Pointless change, it really doesn't change the meaning unless you're suggesting a 12th level Wizard is walking around casting Invisibility spells. Seen/Visible and Unseen/Invisible are essentially synonyms otherwise.

We also have:
"begotten not made, one in being with the Father."
was changed to:
"begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;"
Consubstantial?! Consubstantial is entirely a word that comes from theology, so unless you study most people probably have no idea what it means. It means "of the same essence" or "substance"...kind of like "One in being with the Father," no? Another pointless change, and a downgrade if anything because it just means a lot of people are regurgitating something that they have no understanding of the definition, so why even say it?

There's more in there, but I'll do one more:
"by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary and became man."
was changed to:
"by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man."
Again, another pointless change. Incarnate is a less fancy word than consubstantial, but it's still completely unnecessary. Incarnate is to assume a physical (usually human) form, typically from a deity/supernatural being. Prayer should be earnest, it shouldn't require a dictionary. Saying he was born of the Virgin Mary and became man is clear and concise, there was no need to change it.

Those are just some of the unnecessary changes to the Nicene Creed. There was no lost meaning in the original translations. What it amounts to was probably some young theologian straight out of school probably redid the translations and took the most literal examples, word for word. The 1970 translation flows better and makes more sense to any English speaking person who was born after the 1800s.


Then there's the mass changes. This one has always been a big sticking point. It used to be after the gifts were brought up we'd have the exchange:
Priest: "The Lord be with you."
Congregation: "And also with you."
Priest: "Life up your hearts."
Congregation: "We lift them up to the Lord."
Priest: "Let us give thanks to the Lord our God."
Congregation: "It is right to give Him thanks and praise."

Now it's:
Priest: "The Lord be with you."
Congregation: "And with your spirit."
Priest: "Lift up your hearts."
Congregation: "We lift them up to the Lord."
Priest: "Let us give thanks to the Lord, our God."
Congregation: "It is right and just."

"And with your spirit." Who says that? Nobody. It sounds like a crazy person's response. "And also with you" was a perfectly fine response. Then you've got the "It is right and just." 'Just' generally translates to "morally right" which is essentially repetitious when we've already said "It is right" preceding that. Again, it just flows better in the original and makes more sense: "It is right to give Him thanks and praise."

It may interest some people to know that a lot of other Christians use that same Preface before their Eucharistic prayer (The first one I listed, the one prior to the change in the 2000s). Lutherans and Methodists in particular use the same wording Catholics used to have. In true fashion, the church went back in time to make our responses during mass sound more cringey and cultish, a great way to alienate possible new converts.

I remember being at ND when this stuff came out and even all the Latin wonks were like, wtf. I'd have been happier with a full return to the Latin rite.

 

[Punky]

A few years ago I worked with an Indian dude, very quiet and reserved, but he and I often talked at lunch because he would ask me questions for help with his citizenship test. He had a heavy accent, and the bosses being politically incorrect called him The Hindu, although his first name was Thomas. I thought he took an Angelized name when he emigrated. One day I noticed he had a crucifix hanging around his neck and I asked him if he had converted. He said no, I am a Syro-Malabar Catholic, my family has been Catholic for a couple thousand years. I was shocked to find out that his branch of Catholicism was one of the oldest branches of the Catholic Church, supposedly founded by the actual apostle St Thomas in Kerala in India. Thomas brought Catholicism to India, and he was said to have been buried there when he died. This Eastern church was forgotten about over time, and lost contact with Rome. Their liturgy evolved over time totally apart from the Latin Rite. St Thomas's alleged grave was a shrine for Indian Catholics for hundreds of years. Then the Portuguese showed up. They claimed that the Indian Catholics were not true believers, even though the Indian Church had maintained their beliefs and traditions for all that time against the Hindus and Muslims. Since the Portuguese had the military might to do so, they suppressed the Syro Malabar and other Indian Catholic churches, and enforced the use of the Latin Rite. Supposedly they dug up St Thomas' bones and took them back to Europe, although that may be conjecture. If you read about their history, it is amazing the Indian Catholic community has remained faithful. They were were seen as inferior and treated like crap by the Roman Church for a long time. My Indian friend said many there are still bitter about how they were treated by the European Catholics.

The Catholic Church has had many twists and turns over the centuries, and what one group may see as traditional and proper may not match what another group believes is the right path. And yet all are in the same Church. It's a big, diverse group.

 

[ulukinatme]

Words are not pointless and ridiculous. When the mass was translated from Latin to English many of the words in Latin did match how they originally translated it in English and the changes in 2011 when an attempt to bring words back closer to how masses have been said for a couple thousand years. I do not have the time to break down each individual change however there are people who are much smarter then me who have wrote extensively on the importance of each change.
As for your last comment, we aren't Lutherans or Methodists, why should we change the way Mass as been said for thousands of years to attempt to be like them? You might not feel the words are important but contrary to your statement, the Catholic Church is seeing a boom across the US and many other countries right in converts to the Church, many of whom are seeking a more traditional liturgical service. In the 60s-80s we saw the Catholic Church try to seem more Protestant and many left the church during that time, now as the church is focusing more on their Catholic identity and becoming more traditional again we are seeing a massive boom. We had over 30 adults at my parish enter the Catholic Church this Easter, we have a very conservative priest and traditional service. You might not like the changes but it is resonating with a lot of converts.

I gave clear examples where the wording changed, often to synonyms, when there was no reason to do so. Consubstantial? Ask your parish what that word means, at least 85% will have no clue. If words matter, then people should understand what they're saying instead of just repeating what they're told like robots. Reciting rote prayers is not actual prayer, it's memorization without understanding. The original language from 1970 was better, and it was in place for over 40 years, basically ever since mass for western churches changed from Latin to English.

You're right, we're not Lutherans or Methodists, but that Preface I listed was first translated that way by Catholics so...it's more like they should get their own mass. The mass was said for thousands of years in Latin, it wasn't until the 2nd Vatican Council in the mid 60s that it was converted from Latin to English...and then that translation went for 40+ years while the new translation has only been in place for 14. So, if you're advocating staying true to the roots then I guess we should go back to Latin?

It's great that your church has a bunch of new followers, but that's anecdotal evidence. The truth is Catholicism hasn't been making leaps and bounds in this country, at least not with the established population. Most of the new Catholics have been immigrants from Latin America where Catholicism is booming. Domestically we've lost more members than we've been gaining:

The Catholic population in the U.S. has undergone some striking demographic shifts despite hovering around a quarter of the population for several decades. For example, the Catholic population has lost more members than it has gained from religious switching. In fact, one-in-ten adults in the United States is a former Catholic, according to the Pew Research Center’s 2009 report “Faith in Flux.“

Those are the facts. Like it or not, people in this country are not really flocking to Catholicism (Although Catholics in southern countries are flocking here as previously mentioned). Making the mass more antiquated certainly isn't going to help with that. Many people already see Catholicism as stuffy, dogmatic, boring, etc. The mass doesn't need to be sexy, but it should make sense to even a child if it's in English. Do you ever say "And with your spirit" outside of church? No, nobody does that because it's ridiculous. You say "God be with you/God bless you" which is what the response used to be.

 

[NDpendent]

I gave clear examples where the wording changed, often to synonyms, when there was no reason to do so. Consubstantial? Ask your parish what that word means, at least 85% will have no clue. If words matter, then people should understand what they're saying instead of just repeating what they're told like robots. Reciting rote prayers is not actual prayer, it's memorization without understanding. The original language from 1970 was better, and it was in place for over 40 years, basically ever since mass for western churches changed from Latin to English.

You're right, we're not Lutherans or Methodists, but that Preface I listed was first translated that way by Catholics so...it's more like they should get their own mass. The mass was said for thousands of years in Latin, it wasn't until the 2nd Vatican Council in the mid 60s that it was converted from Latin to English...and then that translation went for 40+ years while the new translation has only been in place for 14. So, if you're advocating staying true to the roots then I guess we should go back to Latin?

It's great that your church has a bunch of new followers, but that's anecdotal evidence. The truth is Catholicism hasn't been making leaps and bounds in this country, at least not with the established population. Most of the new Catholics have been immigrants from Latin America where Catholicism is booming. Domestically we've lost more members than we've been gaining:



Those are the facts. Like it or not, people in this country are not really flocking to Catholicism (Although Catholics in southern countries are flocking here as previously mentioned). Making the mass more antiquated certainly isn't going to help with that. Many people already see Catholicism as stuffy, dogmatic, boring, etc. The mass doesn't need to be sexy, but it should make sense to even a child if it's in English. Do you ever say "And with your spirit" outside of church? No, nobody does that because it's ridiculous. You say "God be with you/God bless you" which is what the response used to be.

Its not just "anecdotal evidence," the Catholic church is growing in the United States at rapid rate, facts are everywhere. My close friend teaches OCIA (RCIA) at our church and has for a long time. He said this year at the Cathedral there were way more converts then he has ever seen, he was 40 mins early to the Vigil Mass and couldn't get a seat, he estimates that there were 40-60% more converts in the diocese of Toledo then 2024 which was also a huge year massive increase from 2023

In the Diocese of Cleveland "812 converts at Eastertime 2025, which is about 50% higher than in 2024 (542) and about 75% higher than in 2023 (465)."

"The number of converts in the Diocese of San Angelo is 56% in 2025 (607) over 2024 (388)."

"Diocese of Worcester in central Massachusetts are up almost 25% this year (323) over last year (259), and this year’s figure is 152% higher than in 2022 (128)."

"The Diocese of Winona-Rochester, Minnesota, is up 67% this year over last year (251 in 2025 versus 150 in 2024), and up 99% from 2022 (126). This year’s numbers are the highest in both baptisms (54) and already-baptized people coming into the Church (197) since at least 2017, according to figures provided to the Register by the diocese."

"Diocese of Lansing, which has seen steady growth since 2022. This year’s expected number of converts at Easter (633) shows modest growth over the same figure in 2024 (619) — but it’s 53% higher than in 2022 (413), and it’s higher than in any years since at least 2015."

"The Diocese of Marquette, Michigan, is seeing conversions almost double this year over last year: from 53 in 2004 to 102 in 2025. The previous high during the past seven years was 73 in 2018."

"In the Diocese of Springfield, Illinois, the number of people expected to be baptized is up 59%: 189 in 2025 versus 119 in 2024."

"In the Diocese of Grand Island, Nebraska, converts are up nearly 45% in 2025 (188) over 2024 (130). "

"In the Diocese of Rockford, Illinois, converts in 2025 (743) are about 41% higher than in 2024 (528) and are 64% higher than in 2019 (452) "

The Diocese of Steubenville, Ohio, is expecting a 39% increase in converts: 106 people in 2025 versus 76 in 2024."

I could literally keep going for days, conversion are up in almost every single diocese in the country.

The pew research you stated goes back to 2009 and there was a lot of Catholic who left the church during that time period but also it is questionable how faithful those Catholics were, there were surveys done in the Catholic CHurch in the early 2000's that asked what Catholic believed and a substantial percentage didnt believe in some of the basic dogmas of the church, many of those people have left the church. It would have been great if they had conversions of hearts but unfortunately many of those are the ones who left and its debatable if you could have even called them Catholics If they dont believe in the Real Presence, The Popes authority, confession etc. etc etc.

Going back to the mass translations and the importance in 2001, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments in Rome came out with "Liturgiam authenticam" which created to make sure Mass translations in every country was as close to the same translation as possible to ensure that every mass throughout the world was said in almsot the same way. You brought up "And with your spirit," which in every other countries language but the United States was translated as such, it comes from the Latin "Et cum spiritu tuo" which in no way is close to "And also with you." Ill do my best to explain it but I am not a theologian and as I stated before there are many others who wrote more eloquently and are much better versed then me, but the expression et cum spiritu tuo is only addressed to an priest or deacon and when they were ordained they received a special gift of the Holy Spirit. When we say and with your Spirit we are asking for Holy Spirit to continue to give divine assistance to the priest or deacon. So to your point no, we would not say that walking down the street to some average Joe.

No, I am not arguing we should go back to Latin (though I do love the Latin Mass) but I do believe we should get the words to the liturgy to as close as the real translations from Latin as possible.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

...

The pew research you stated goes back to 2009 and there was a lot of Catholic who left the church during that time period but also it is questionable how faithful those Catholics were, there were surveys done in the Catholic CHurch in the early 2000's that asked what Catholic believed and a substantial percentage didnt believe in some of the basic dogmas of the church, many of those people have left the church. It would have been great if they had conversions of hearts but unfortunately many of those are the ones who left and its debatable if you could have even called them Catholics If they dont believe in the Real Presence, The Popes authority, confession etc. etc etc.

Going back to the mass translations and the importance in 2001, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments in Rome came out with "Liturgiam authenticam" which created to make sure Mass translations in every country was as close to the same translation as possible to ensure that every mass throughout the world was said in almsot the same way. You brought up "And with your spirit," which in every other countries language but the United States was translated as such, it comes from the Latin "Et cum spiritu tuo" which in no way is close to "And also with you." Ill do my best to explain it but I am not a theologian and as I stated before there are many others who wrote more eloquently and are much better versed then me, but the expression et cum spiritu tuo is only addressed to an priest or deacon and when they were ordained they received a special gift of the Holy Spirit. When we say and with your Spirit we are asking for Holy Spirit to continue to give divine assistance to the priest or deacon. So to your point no, we would not say that walking down the street to some average Joe.

No, I am not arguing we should go back to Latin (though I do love the Latin Mass) but I do believe we should get the words to the liturgy to as close as the real translations from Latin as possible.

Thanks for this post.

I'm officially Catholic, for what, 72 hours now. haha. And this is the type of information I love to learn. In my OCIA class, it was mentioned multiple times how most Catholics are very poorly catechized. This is especially true of "Cradle Catholics," who were born into the Church, were catechized as children, and haven't spent the time to stay fresh on said education throughout their adult lives. Myself and another convert (a former minister for a non-denominational church, actually), spoke up one day about the need for better Bible study, history study, CCC study, etc and how these classes should not just focus on OCIA or newcomers, or converts. I attend the largest parish in Indiana. They absolutely have the resources to do more than they already do. With that said, you can only lead a horse to water. So what is the answer for getting Catholics to better understand their faith? Idk. I do know that the more I understood the faith and the more I prayed on it, the more on fire I became. On fire parishioners, imo, are the best way to ignite the evangelical conversations that will lead more and more people back home. Modernizing mass to be more 21st century speak, would have the opposite effect on me.

 

[NDpendent]

Thanks for this post.

I'm officially Catholic, for what, 72 hours now. haha. And this is the type of information I love to learn. In my OCIA class, it was mentioned multiple times how most Catholics are very poorly catechized. This is especially true of "Cradle Catholics," who were born into the Church, were catechized as children, and haven't spent the time to stay fresh on said education throughout their adult lives. Myself and another convert (a former minister for a non-denominational church, actually), spoke up one day about the need for better Bible study, history study, CCC study, etc and how these classes should not just focus on OCIA or newcomers, or converts. I attend the largest parish in Indiana. They absolutely have the resources to do more than they already do. With that said, you can only lead a horse to water. So what is the answer for getting Catholics to better understand their faith? Idk. I do know that the more I understood the faith and the more I prayed on it, the more on fire I became. On fire parishioners, imo, are the best way to ignite the evangelical conversations that will lead more and more people back home. Modernizing mass to be more 21st century speak, would have the opposite effect on me.

Thats why we love converts!!! The are completely revitalizing the Church. There are so many amazing converts that have entered our parish the last few years and they are some of the most involved and active parishioners. Keep that fire going!
As for cradle Catholics, yes the church and us as individuals have done a more job of education and catechesis but that seems to be changing.
You should take the lead! If your parish isnt already doing it I would recommend talking to your priest about getting a "small group" program started. They do it at our church and its extremely impactful. I'm in two, one is a mens group that meets for coffee once a week to catch up and do a bible study in the early morning and a second one for couples one that meets once a month as goes through a gospel (This year we are going through Luke naturally) while our kids all play in the other room. The mens group is half converts and the couples one has two converts and two that were Luke warm craddle Catholics when we started and are now on fire. We have probably around 40-50 total small groups at our parish now.

 

[GowerND11]

What I've seen with many Catholics leaving the Church here in NEPA is due to numerous things.

Secularization of our society. They are still culturally Catholic, they may even attend Christmas and Easter Mass, though others don't. They just don't have "time" for Mass and raise their kids that way.

Others due to the, very upsetting and understandable feeling of betrayal, sex abuse scandal. Our area was very hard hit by this.

Third is the closing of our parishes and schools. It's no surprise it happened. We have less Catholics here in the Coal Region than before. Through in a lot of people from my first group still here, and there are less people at Mass and in our schools. Then churches are closed, ethnic, beautiful, family built churches. You went to the Irish church if you were Irish. You went to the Polish church if Polish, and on and on. Many felt betrayed seeing their church shuttered.

Another is I think a sense that they never REALLY learned the true meaning of our religion despite going to a Catholic school or CCD. So they yearn for something else, and they end up at one of these newfangled non-denominational places where everyone sings and dances and there are lights. They trade the spirituality for some dopamine high.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Thats why we love converts!!! The are completely revitalizing the Church. There are so many amazing converts that have entered our parish the last few years and they are some of the most involved and active parishioners. Keep that fire going!
As for cradle Catholics, yes the church and us as individuals have done a more job of education and catechesis but that seems to be changing.
You should take the lead! If your parish isnt already doing it I would recommend talking to your priest about getting a "small group" program started. They do it at our church and its extremely impactful. I'm in two, one is a mens group that meets for coffee once a week to catch up and do a bible study in the early morning and a second one for couples one that meets once a month as goes through a gospel (This year we are going through Luke naturally) while our kids all play in the other room. The mens group is half converts and the couples one has two converts and two that were Luke warm craddle Catholics when we started and are now on fire. We have probably around 40-50 total small groups at our parish now.

My parish does offer a lot of these small group gatherings, mens and womens Cursillo, other mens and womens retreats. They do a great job, to be fair. What I and others in my OCIA were pointing out, was the need derived from desire to learn more. Literal 100-, 200-, 300- level type courses we could sign up for to learn about various topics. We have so many sponsors at church who's reasoning for becoming a sponsor was "to learn more." So the demand is there, they just need to figure out a supply for that collegiate level educational yearning.

This actually was a recent topic with my dad, who (as mentioned in previous posts) is a very evangelical, non-denom, fundamentalist Christian. To my shock, he's been very open-minded to everything I've learned during my conversion journey. "Where is ____ in the Bible?" he'll ask. Then when I give a long-winded answer including verses, historical documentation relating to early Church Fathers, and the Church's interpretation of said scripture, you literally can see him light up. "Wow! My whole life I've only known this particular interpretation. That's pretty fascinating." My wife's family (all Catholics) are the exact same way because they either weren't catechized well or have simply forgotten. I'm talking basic stuff like the Bread of Life Discourse. Like c'mon people!

What I've seen with many Catholics leaving the Church here in NEPA is due to numerous things.

Secularization of our society. They are still culturally Catholic, they may even attend Christmas and Easter Mass, though others don't. They just don't have "time" for Mass and raise their kids that way.

Others due to the, very upsetting and understandable feeling of betrayal, sex abuse scandal. Our area was very hard hit by this.

Third is the closing of our parishes and schools. It's no surprise it happened. We have less Catholics here in the Coal Region than before. Through in a lot of people from my first group still here, and there are less people at Mass and in our schools. Then churches are closed, ethnic, beautiful, family built churches. You went to the Irish church if you were Irish. You went to the Polish church if Polish, and on and on. Many felt betrayed seeing their church shuttered.

Another is I think a sense that they never REALLY learned the true meaning of our religion despite going to a Catholic school or CCD. So they yearn for something else, and they end up at one of these newfangled non-denominational places where everyone sings and dances and there are lights. They trade the spirituality for some dopamine high.

Failure to keep Sunday holy has to be at all-time highs. Sports eat up a ridiculous amount of a family's free time. Masstimes.org is a great resource for getting to a mass-near-you whenever out traveling. I tell everyone I know about it. You're in Cincy for the weekend? Guess what, they have churches there too. Get there. On vacation? Get to mass. Make it a priority. I get it though. It's so hard in this secularized society where going to church and keeping that day holy are at the bottom of list of priorities for so many of us. Me included for many years, but we're working to change that.

 

[Hautian Domer]

Does anyone know of / can provide the following? 1. A good, easily digestible book or guide to Catholic religious orders (Trappists, Dominicans, Congregation of Holy Cross, Franciscans, Friars, etc.)? What they're known for, etc. Do the priests, nuns, etc. have to enter them? I was always fuzzy on this topic. 2. Other than the CCC what's a good, easy-to-read and understand book or guide on Catholicism in general? Even as a Catholic, I feel like RCIA would still be beneficial, but if I can read something, it would greatly help. For example, I was always a little unsure of years A,B, and C. Is it just a rotation of the gospels with the Book of John always sprinkled in throughout? Over the span of 3 years, assuming I never missed Mass, would I hear the entirety of the Gospels?

 

[Irish du Nord]

Does anyone know of / can provide the following? 1. A good, easily digestible book or guide to Catholic religious orders (Trappists, Dominicans, Congregation of Holy Cross, Franciscans, Friars, etc.)? What they're known for, etc. Do the priests, nuns, etc. have to enter them? I was always fuzzy on this topic. 2. Other than the CCC what's a good, easy-to-read and understand book or guide on Catholicism in general? Even as a Catholic, I feel like RCIA would still be beneficial, but if I can read something, it would greatly help. For example, I was always a little unsure of years A,B, and C. Is it just a rotation of the gospels with the Book of John always sprinkled in throughout? Over the span of 3 years, assuming I never missed Mass, would I hear the entirety of the Gospels?

This is correct.

I like Ratzinger's (Pope Benedict XVI) Introduction to Christianity as a general intro to Catholic theology. Guides on religious orders are a bit more difficult, but the wikipedia's on the orders gives pretty good info.

Catholic Charisms: Franciscan, Benedictine & More

What is a charism, and how does it apply to theology? Exploring the Jesuit, Benedictine, and Franciscan charisms and more.

onlinedegrees.sandiego.edu

Nice short article on the charisms of religious orders.

 

[NDpendent]

Does anyone know of / can provide the following? 1. A good, easily digestible book or guide to Catholic religious orders (Trappists, Dominicans, Congregation of Holy Cross, Franciscans, Friars, etc.)? What they're known for, etc. Do the priests, nuns, etc. have to enter them? I was always fuzzy on this topic. 2. Other than the CCC what's a good, easy-to-read and understand book or guide on Catholicism in general? Even as a Catholic, I feel like RCIA would still be beneficial, but if I can read something, it would greatly help. For example, I was always a little unsure of years A,B, and C. Is it just a rotation of the gospels with the Book of John always sprinkled in throughout? Over the span of 3 years, assuming I never missed Mass, would I hear the entirety of the Gospels?

You are correct on the rotation of the gospels with Mark sprinkled in. If you go to daily mass you will read hear the whole bible in three years. If you just go on Sundays then you won't hear the whole thing

 

[Punky]

Does anyone know of / can provide the following? 1. A good, easily digestible book or guide to Catholic religious orders (Trappists, Dominicans, Congregation of Holy Cross, Franciscans, Friars, etc.)? What they're known for, etc. Do the priests, nuns, etc. have to enter them? I was always fuzzy on this topic. 2. Other than the CCC what's a good, easy-to-read and understand book or guide on Catholicism in general? Even as a Catholic, I feel like RCIA would still be beneficial, but if I can read something, it would greatly help. For example, I was always a little unsure of years A,B, and C. Is it just a rotation of the gospels with the Book of John always sprinkled in throughout? Over the span of 3 years, assuming I never missed Mass, would I hear the entirety of the Gospels?

Years ago my dad would get a book at the local Catholic bookstore (good luck finding a Catholic bookstore nowadays) published by Our Sunday Visitor called The Catholic Almanac. It had a list of everything published by the Vatican the year before (bulls, encyclicals, etc), upcoming events, feast days, dates of holidays, lists of cardinals and bishops and where they served, Vatican offices like the Curia and who was in them, biographies, holy orders, a short history of the church, you name it, it had everything. It was a pretty thick paper back, and it came out with a new edition every year or two. I just did a quick internet search and don't see a new one listed anywhere, so maybe they quit putting out a book thinking people look up stuff online, but maybe you can find an old copy somewhere? It was actually a neat book, I would peruse his copy every now and again. Kinda like a Catholic encyclopedia.


EDIT: Here's a really old copy I found online. You'll obviously want something newer, but this will show you the format, so you can see if it would be useful.
1988 Catholic Almanac

 

[Hautian Domer]

Following up, a couple of more questions for more Catholic friends....in your opinion (and excluding the "Glory Be," "Our Father," and "Hail Mary,") what are some other, say 3-5, Catholic prayers that every Catholic should know and memorize?

Additionally, I attended Ash Wednesday service in Louisville this year. I was there for a work related matter. Prior to the mass, one of the laity led the congregation in a prayer....the congregation was standing during the prayer. In the middle of the prayer (I do not recall what was said, unfortunately), but about 1/2 of the congregation quickly knelt (I believe facing to the left) and immediately stood after. Do any of you know what I'm talking about....? If so, what's the prayer, the reasoning for kneeling? I can't say I've ever recalled seeing that.

 

[NDpendent]

Following up, a couple of more questions for more Catholic friends....in your opinion (and excluding the "Glory Be," "Our Father," and "Hail Mary,") what are some other, say 3-5, Catholic prayers that every Catholic should know and memorize?

Additionally, I attended Ash Wednesday service in Louisville this year. I was there for a work related matter. Prior to the mass, one of the laity led the congregation in a prayer....the congregation was standing during the prayer. In the middle of the prayer (I do not recall what was said, unfortunately), but about 1/2 of the congregation quickly knelt (I believe facing to the left) and immediately stood after. Do any of you know what I'm talking about....? If so, what's the prayer, the reasoning for kneeling? I can't say I've ever recalled seeing that.

I personally like doing the quick "Morning Offering" prayer to start my day which I highly recommend.
Also the Memorare is one of my favorites
The Magnificat is a good one, its Marys prayer.

Do you remember anything that was said during the Ash Wednesday prayer or the general topic of it?

 

[Hautian Domer]

I personally like doing the quick "Morning Offering" prayer to start my day which I highly recommend.
Also the Memorare is one of my favorites
The Magnificat is a good one, its Marys prayer.

Do you remember anything that was said during the Ash Wednesday prayer or the general topic of it?

I don't believe it was the rosary. My church prays the rosary before Mass. Everyone sits and recites. This one, prior to the Mass beginning, a lay person came to the podium and started reciting a prayer and other's joined in...I believe a part of the "Hail Mary" was included, but it wasn't a recitation of the rosary....in the middle of the prayer, 1/2 of so of the congregation joining in in the prayer knelt down (again, I believe they faced to the left, but that possibly could have been due to room issues in a cramped pew) and immediately stood right back up. It was maybe 1 minute in length. Sorry, I wish I could provide more information. I wish I mentioned this in early March.

 

[PapaIrish37]

I personally like doing the quick "Morning Offering" prayer to start my day which I highly recommend.
Also the Memorare is one of my favorites
The Magnificat is a good one, its Marys prayer.

Do you remember anything that was said during the Ash Wednesday prayer or the general topic of it?

Three great choices.
Also, we should all know the Apostle's Creed - it is all we profess to believe in simple language. Reminding ourselves and offering it to God each day is a good practice.

 

[domer13]

I don't believe it was the rosary. My church prays the rosary before Mass. Everyone sits and recites. This one, prior to the Mass beginning, a lay person came to the podium and started reciting a prayer and other's joined in...I believe a part of the "Hail Mary" was included, but it wasn't a recitation of the rosary....in the middle of the prayer, 1/2 of so of the congregation joining in in the prayer knelt down (again, I believe they faced to the left, but that possibly could have been due to room issues in a cramped pew) and immediately stood right back up. It was maybe 1 minute in length. Sorry, I wish I could provide more information. I wish I mentioned this in early March.

Perhaps it was the prayer typically associated with the Stations of the Cross.

"We adore you, O Christ, and we praise you."
R. "Because by your Holy Cross you have redeemed the world." (people typically genuflect/kneel at the response)

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Morning offering, Fatima prayer, Act of Contrition, St Michael the Archangel, our family does Bless us Oh Lord before meals. Just off the top of my head...among others listed.