Is ND really pursuing National Championships?

[Domina Nostra]

Based on what the coaches constantly say regarding their goals and their sale's pitch to recruits, ND's goal is win a NC. It's not to get to a major bowl. It's not to win 11 games. It's not to beat USC. It's obviously not to win a conference championship. The goal is to win it all.

With the current state of the passing game, I think many would agree that ND has little or no chance of scoring consistently on an elite team. While ND is good enough to run over some teams, there is no reason to believe that ND could pull that off against UGA, Texas, Alabama, or Ohio State in a playoff game. In the last 10 years, the winning team has scored 34, 65, 33, 52, 44, 26, 35, 45, and 42. Could we score 26 against an elite defense with this offense?

So while you can certainly argue that Leonard gives ND the best chance to maximize our record this year, can you really argue that running an offense like the one we've seen to this point is compatible with the program's goal of winning an NC? (I'm not saying it can't improve, and I am rooting for him, for sure.)

We might lose more games with one of our other QBs, but at least we are building towards the goal. I think a year without a passing game will seriously hurt our offensive development for next year and make recruiting QB and WR even harder than it already has been for ND.

Thoughts?

 

[irishff1014]

This goes beyond all of that. We don’t have a head coach with the mindset to win a national championship. Look at who they accepted in the portal. Riley, Oben and this punter.

I think most of us knew this would never happen again but we were trying to be hopeful.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

 

[Free Manera]

ND needs a Trevor Lawrence level college qb to have any shot at a championship. Maybe Carr can be that.

The roster will never ever be like OSU or UGA or Bama. ND barely even takes undergrad transfers which is like starting the race with your shoes untied.

We need a “you call that a storm?!” type situation.

 

[NDPhilly]

If Riley Leonard took the step that some people thought he was capable of taking (1st round pick), this could have been a national championship team.

 

[Irish du Nord]

ND needs a Trevor Lawrence level college qb to have any shot at a championship. Maybe Carr can be that.

The roster will never ever be like OSU or UGA or Bama. ND barely even takes undergrad transfers which is like starting the race with your shoes untied.

We need a “you call that a storm?!” type situation.

I object to the insinuation that Clemson's roster as a whole in their championship years was worse than the OSUs/UGAs of those years if you exclude Lawrence/Watson.

2018 Clemson had the best defense in college football. They held potentially the best offense in college football to 16 points without their best defensive player. They had three consensus all-americans that year. Lawrence wasn't one. UGA had one, OSU had zero. Of course they wouldn't have won without Lawrence, but put Lawrence on ND that year we probably don't win either. Clemson was better than us at every position group except maybe the secondary (ironically the position group they exposed when J Love got hurt).

Winning takes elite roster construction across the board. We've been near that but have had holes, having Lawrence and having holes doesn't get a championship regardless.

 

[NDpendent]

In Carr we trust

 

[JoeyGetherall]

I object to the insinuation that Clemson's roster as a whole in their championship years was worse than the OSUs/UGAs of those years if you exclude Lawrence/Watson.

2018 Clemson had the best defense in college football. They held potentially the best offense in college football to 16 points without their best defensive player. They had three consensus all-americans that year. Lawrence wasn't one. UGA had one, OSU had zero. Of course they wouldn't have won without Lawrence, but put Lawrence on ND that year we probably don't win either. Clemson was better than us at every position group except maybe the secondary (ironically the position group they exposed when J Love got hurt).

Winning takes elite roster construction across the board. We've been near that but have had holes, having Lawrence and having holes doesn't get a championship regardless.

Exactly right. Those Clemson, Bama, OSU, and recently UGA and Michigan Champs all won up front. That's where championships are won, no matter what type of QB you have.

We usually have the Oline part, and occasionally first line talent on D with no depth. We need both consistently if we want to win.

 

[mrmcgrail]

I think he is talking about in the rankings where Clemson was for recruiting. They landed typically where we land

 

[ThePiombino]

If Riley Leonard took the step that some people thought he was capable of taking (1st round pick), this could have been a national championship team.

But he didn't. And the staff is sticking with him anyway.

Sent from my Pixel 8 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[NDQuebec]

Maybe the problem lies with the head coach and his old style football philosophy, i.e. run first, and make sure your QB's first and only priority is to manage a run first offense. His mentor is Tressel. Saban realized that it's a philosophy that won't get you to the top and he changed it.

RL was brought in because he is a good runner. That's what MF wanted, and ND, now going all in on football, gave him the financial resources to get him. He was never a good passer (check out his stats) but that wasn't Freeman's priority.

Some above say that you need a good oline and dline to win. That's true of course, but you also need a QB that can keep the defenses honest by being able to throw the football. You won't find a single team in the recent pass that went very far without a competent passer. Some say, but what about Michigan last year and Georgia the year before? Sure, they didn't have superstars at QB but both McCarthy (1st round pick) and Bennet were very competent passers, even though they weren't elite.

Maybe next year.

 

[JoeyGetherall]

Based on what the coaches constantly say regarding their goals and their sale's pitch to recruits, ND's goal is win a NC. It's not to get to a major bowl. It's not to win 11 games. It's not to beat USC. It's obviously not to win a conference championship. The goal is to win it all.

With the current state of the passing game, I think many would agree that ND has little or no chance of scoring consistently on an elite team. While ND is good enough to run over some teams, there is no reason to believe that ND could pull that off against UGA, Texas, Alabama, or Ohio State in a playoff game. In the last 10 years, the winning team has scored 34, 65, 33, 52, 44, 26, 35, 45, and 42. Could we score 26 against an elite defense with this offense?

So while you can certainly argue that Leonard gives ND the best chance to maximize our record this year, can you really argue that running an offense like the one we've seen to this point is compatible with the program's goal of winning an NC? (I'm not saying it can't improve, and I am rooting for him, for sure.)

We might lose more games with one of our other QBs, but at least we are building towards the goal. I think a year without a passing game will seriously hurt our offensive development for next year and make recruiting QB and WR even harder than it already has been for ND.

Thoughts?

Michigan won a national championship last year avg 22 passing attempts per game, and their QB got drafted in the top 10. A year prior Stetson Bennett threw a bunch of 50 yd screen passes to Brock Bowers and was a round 4 guy.

I don't think Leonard's play alone hinders recruiting, losing does. Just win baby, whoever is at QB.

The more concerning thing is the coaches think Leonard gives them the best shot to win. It would be nice to see some player development come from that end of the operation.

 

[SDIrishFan]

Exactly right. Those Clemson, Bama, OSU, and recently UGA and Michigan Champs all won up front. That's where championships are won, no matter what type of QB you have.

We usually have the Oline part, and occasionally first line talent on D with no depth. We need both consistently if we want to win.

I would argue, that's where championships start, i.e. you can't win one if you can't win the battle upfront consistently on both sides. However, you need playmakers in the backend on both sides.

I still contend, had ND brought back Alt and Fischer (theoretically) and Leonard was the 2022 version of himself, ND is a legit contender this year.

It just never seems like all the pieces line up at the right time.

 

[stlnd01]

We might lose more games with one of our other QBs, but at least we are building towards the goal. I think a year without a passing game will seriously hurt our offensive development for next year and make recruiting QB and WR even harder than it already has been for ND.

Thoughts?

We haven't really had a viable passing game since 2021. We haven't had a championship-level passing game since 2015 (and that was the only season since the Weis era). It's not just one year.
That said, all other aspects of our team are basically good enough right now, and have been, pretty consistently, since 2017 (with some ebbs and flows of course). I really do think we're basically a quarterback away. Leonard ain't it. But maybe he + Angeli are good enough to still make the playoffs, and then Carr takes us to the next level.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Based on what the coaches constantly say regarding their goals and their sale's pitch to recruits, ND's goal is win a NC. It's not to get to a major bowl. It's not to win 11 games. It's not to beat USC. It's obviously not to win a conference championship. The goal is to win it all.

With the current state of the passing game, I think many would agree that ND has little or no chance of scoring consistently on an elite team. While ND is good enough to run over some teams, there is no reason to believe that ND could pull that off against UGA, Texas, Alabama, or Ohio State in a playoff game. In the last 10 years, the winning team has scored 34, 65, 33, 52, 44, 26, 35, 45, and 42. Could we score 26 against an elite defense with this offense?

So while you can certainly argue that Leonard gives ND the best chance to maximize our record this year, can you really argue that running an offense like the one we've seen to this point is compatible with the program's goal of winning an NC? (I'm not saying it can't improve, and I am rooting for him, for sure.)

We might lose more games with one of our other QBs, but at least we are building towards the goal. I think a year without a passing game will seriously hurt our offensive development for next year and make recruiting QB and WR even harder than it already has been for ND.

Thoughts?

MF inherited the QB he inherited. It was ugly in hindsight. But it‘s not like he recruited those guys. As loaded as the program was it still lacked what BK teams always lack. A game-changing QB. I think we have to remember that coaches don’t think like fans…and that’s a good thing IMO. For instance, Rees’ miscalculation on not going into the portal for a QB when they clearly needed one in ‘22 led to MF showing even more urgency the following season. His goal is & should be to “win now”. He couldn’t invest/sacrifice an entire ‘23 season in developing sophomore Angeli (or true freshman Minchey) to have the offense teed up for a great 2024 w/ a seasoned QB. That’s also unfair to the upperclassmen who also want to “win now”.

We are all frustrated in the slow uptake of RL. I doubt they expected he needed a 2nd surgery when they secured him in the portal. It happens, you move on & make the best of the situation. During the limited practices the press saw, they were in agreement that RL was the best QB on the field but felt good about the backups should something happen. We’ll never know if RL being able to practice in the Spring w/ his new offense on his new team would‘ve prevented what we are seeing now.

I have no clue how the season plays out. I’d say the odds are stacked against them that they’ll run the table b/c human nature will…once again…rear its ugly head. And I have no clue how the QB situation plays out. My hope is RL can regain his 2022 form. If not, all bets are off and he will be one of many case studies of how the portal can help or hinder your team’s prospects. You can’t get preoccupied w/ how ND matches up vs the UGAs & OSUs right now. The goal is to play their way into the CFP and then plan accordingly. IF they make it, they‘ll have 12 games of film to decipher what gives them the best shot at surviving and advancing as far as possible….hopefully to the champ game but only two teams can do it so stay tuned.

 

[JoeyGetherall]

I would argue, that's where championships start, i.e. you can't win one if you can't win the battle upfront consistently on both sides. However, you need playmakers in the backend on both sides.

I still contend, had ND brought back Alt and Fischer (theoretically) and Leonard was the 2022 version of himself, ND is a legit contender this year.

It just never seems like all the pieces line up at the right time.

Agreed, you need both to win a championships, but in a hypothetical matchup I'd take a team with NFL talent up front , combined with average skill players Vs a team with average line play and NFL skill players. If you can't block on O or stop the run on D it's nearly impossible to win. The current Buffs squad epitomizes this.

 

[SDIrishFan]

Agreed, you need both to win a championships, but in a hypothetical matchup I'd take a team with NFL talent up front , combined with average skill players Vs a team with average line play and NFL skill players. If you can't block on O or stop the run on D it's nearly impossible to win. The current Buffs squad epitomizes this.

At the end of the day, you really can’t have any weaknesses and expect to get a championship. As it should be. Could you get lucky (see last year), sure. But 9 times out of 10 you have to be great across the board.

 

[Gladiator]

Tony Rice couldn't participate on the practice squad his first year because of some NCAA rule about grades/SAT scores out of high school.
What makes anyone think we don't have a Rice waiting in the weeds just about to pull off another 88' season?

Things are changing in the program we aren't always aware of. I do believe
We do have some work to do in recruiting, yet these moral killing threads are all we need to get the next Zorich or numbers from a QB like
Tony Rice- 70 Cmp, 138 Att, 1176 Yds, 8 TD- 1988 stats.
MF needs to recruit our own players to stay until their eligibility is up. These kids jumping to the league for an early payday might change now that the sponsors and alumni can pony up and pay to play like the rest of them.

 

[Te'o4Heisman]

I object to the insinuation that Clemson's roster as a whole in their championship years was worse than the OSUs/UGAs of those years if you exclude Lawrence/Watson.

2018 Clemson had the best defense in college football. They held potentially the best offense in college football to 16 points without their best defensive player. They had three consensus all-americans that year. Lawrence wasn't one. UGA had one, OSU had zero. Of course they wouldn't have won without Lawrence, but put Lawrence on ND that year we probably don't win either. Clemson was better than us at every position group except maybe the secondary (ironically the position group they exposed when J Love got hurt).

Winning takes elite roster construction across the board. We've been near that but have had holes, having Lawrence and having holes doesn't get a championship regardless.

Bingo, but people say all kinds of shit when they want to be right.

 

[Sea Turtle]

ND hasn't won a najor bowl in 30 years, let alone a Natty.

No, they aren't really trying

 

[Free Manera]

Clemson won championships in 2016 and 2018. Their composite recruiting rankings for the relevant years are as follows:

2013 - #14
2014 - #16
2015 - #9
2016 - #11
2017 #16

These are ND type classes. Clemson did not recruit like UGA or Bama or OSU to win championships. They signed a lot of 4 stars and scouted well to hit on underrated recruits. They also signed difference-maker QBs.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

They're "trying" but they're not "trying at all cost". So - it can't happen.

 

[stlnd01]

Tony Rice couldn't participate on the practice squad his first year because of some NCAA rule about grades/SAT scores out of high school.
What makes anyone think we don't have a Rice waiting in the weeds just about to pull off another 88' season?

Things are changing in the program we aren't always aware of. I do believe
We do have some work to do in recruiting, yet these moral killing threads are all we need to get the next Zorich or numbers from a QB like
Tony Rice- 70 Cmp, 138 Att, 1176 Yds, 8 TD- 1988 stats.
MF needs to recruit our own players to stay until their eligibility is up. These kids jumping to the league for an early payday might change now that the sponsors and alumni can pony up and pay to play like the rest of them.

This is a very good point. In a pre-NIL world, probably three or four of the best players on our defense wouldn't be here right now. Of course the same is true at Ohio State and other schools that stand between us and a championship.
But I think between the value of the degree and the culture that Freeman seems to have built, Notre Dame has some distinct advantages when it comes to player retention (we also seem to lose fewer significant outbound transfers than most teams). And that can help us build a roster of experienced, physically mature players who can win a title. (much like Michigan had last year).
Again, what we need is what we've always needed. A better quarterback.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Let's be very clear about something when it comes to Marcus Freeman's mentors.

He has at least two.

One is Jim Tressel and one is Lou Holtz.

 

[NDpendent]

Okay, Ill bite and this might piss off some people who are in the fire Freeman now but I have been thinking about this since NIU.

Yes I believe Notre Dame will win a championship and that it will not only happen sooner then later but it will happen under MFMF. Probably not with RL though.

I know people are questioning whether MFMF is competent enough to be the head coach at ND and I get why but he doesn't have to be the brightest coach. He just needs to give the keys to his coordinators which it appears he does. We need to do on offense what Golden did on defense. MFMF primary job should be the face of the organization, the motivator, the recruiter, the speaker. Let the coordinators do the brain work.

This is the biggest hurdle to winning a championship and the area of most concern moving forward. The passing game and receivers. We have seen is heavy in the 2025 recruiting class, receivers do not want to come here to not get the ball thrown to them. Other teams are negatively recruiting hard against on inability to throw the ball. Meadows was a silent commit but he had three teams in his ear all saying the same thing that ND will ruin his career and we wont get many targets, that ND doesn't throw the ball. When three other teams all had the same talking tracks he started believing it. And we lost 3/5 WR commits from the 2023 class because of it. In 2022 our leading WR had 361 yard ON THE SEASON, 484 was the leader in 2023 and through 3 games we have no one pacing for over 500 in 2024 either. No WR recruits want to come here.

I dont know how badly RL was hurt against NIU but I really hope that was the reason for the L, we need him to start putting up 250 yard passing games like he consistently did in 2022

If MFMF and Dembrock can fix this issue we are a championship team in the next 5 years, but they needs to fix it now because its going to continue to hurt us down the road the longer he waits like it already has in the 2025 class

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Let's be very clear about something when it comes to Marcus Freeman's mentors.

He has at least two.

One is Jim Tressel and one is Lou Holtz.

Really? I know MF went to visit him a few times but assumed it was more out of respect than anything else. I defer to you though as this is news to me.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Really? I know MF went to visit him a few times but assumed it was more out of respect than anything else. I defer to you though as this is news to me.

Here it is, from the beginning:

One of Freeman’s first orders of business after his hiring was to tap into all things Notre Dame with Holtz, whose Irish claimed the 1988 national title and went a Leahy-ish 64-9-1 during a six-season span from 1988-93.

“When (Freeman) got the job, within the first week, he flew down here and spent the whole day with me,” Holtz said. “We talked all about Notre Dame. I’m willing to help him in any way possible.

“He doesn’t need any help. He’s going in the right direction. But I want Notre Dame to always be successful, particularly with somebody who understands what Notre Dame is all about.”

Holtz On Freeman: ‘He Loves and Understands Notre Dame’

Holtz learned his love for Notre Dame growing up at a time when Frank Leahy was dominating the gridiron for the Fighting Irish. Notre Dame was at the forefront of the Holtz family’s sporting interests. He ruled his teams by tapping into the mold of Woody Hayes and his own military background.

247sports.com

After They lost to Marshall, Lou Holtz wrote Freeman a letter. Freeman has mentioned since taking the job having access to Tressel and Holtz as mentors. I think he spoke about it when he was on The Pivot podcast as a guest.

If we're talking about that, Freeman has at least two. At the very least.

 

[NumbersGuy0520]

Okay, Ill bite and this might piss off some people who are in the fire Freeman now but I have been thinking about this since NIU.

Yes I believe Notre Dame will win a championship and that it will not only happen sooner then later but it will happen under MFMF. Probably not with RL though.

I know people are questioning whether MFMF is competent enough to be the head coach at ND and I get why but he doesn't have to be the brightest coach. He just needs to give the keys to his coordinators which it appears he does. We need to do on offense what Golden did on defense. MFMF primary job should be the face of the organization, the motivator, the recruiter, the speaker. Let the coordinators do the brain work.

This is the biggest hurdle to winning a championship and the area of most concern moving forward. The passing game and receivers. We have seen is heavy in the 2025 recruiting class, receivers do not want to come here to not get the ball thrown to them. Other teams are negatively recruiting hard against on inability to throw the ball. Meadows was a silent commit but he had three teams in his ear all saying the same thing that ND will ruin his career and we wont get many targets, that ND doesn't throw the ball. When three other teams all had the same talking tracks he started believing it. And we lost 3/5 WR commits from the 2023 class because of it. In 2022 our leading WR had 361 yard ON THE SEASON, 484 was the leader in 2023 and through 3 games we have no one pacing for over 500 in 2024 either. No WR recruits want to come here.

I dont know how badly RL was hurt against NIU but I really hope that was the reason for the L, we need him to start putting up 250 yard passing games like he consistently did in 2022

If MFMF and Dembrock can fix this issue we are a championship team in the next 5 years, but they needs to fix it now because its going to continue to hurt us down the road the longer he waits like it already has in the 2025 class

Agree with most of what you said, with the exception of a championship coming soon, and under Freeman. It could certainly happen, but I don’t see it happening soon.

I mean, sure. If we can fix the passing issue, we are competing for national championships. I just don’t see much over the past decade to tell me that we are anywhere close to fixing it.

 

[Irish Knuckles]

Based on what the coaches constantly say regarding their goals and their sale's pitch to recruits, ND's goal is win a NC. It's not to get to a major bowl. It's not to win 11 games. It's not to beat USC. It's obviously not to win a conference championship. The goal is to win it all.

With the current state of the passing game, I think many would agree that ND has little or no chance of scoring consistently on an elite team. While ND is good enough to run over some teams, there is no reason to believe that ND could pull that off against UGA, Texas, Alabama, or Ohio State in a playoff game. In the last 10 years, the winning team has scored 34, 65, 33, 52, 44, 26, 35, 45, and 42. Could we score 26 against an elite defense with this offense?

So while you can certainly argue that Leonard gives ND the best chance to maximize our record this year, can you really argue that running an offense like the one we've seen to this point is compatible with the program's goal of winning an NC? (I'm not saying it can't improve, and I am rooting for him, for sure.)

We might lose more games with one of our other QBs, but at least we are building towards the goal. I think a year without a passing game will seriously hurt our offensive development for next year and make recruiting QB and WR even harder than it already has been for ND.

Thoughts?

this is my biggest issue with signing these transfer qbs. have we really been a starting qb away from competing for a natty? i don't think so, all it's done is slow down our qb room. what if angeli was the starter this year with a full season under his belt? what if buchner was the starter with two full seasons under his belt? i don't think it would be that much different, at worst. unless a light comes on for leonard and he becomes a better passer, this season is another wash and a waste of development. we aren't gonna be a team like uga, osu or bama that can just reload for a natty run every year. gonna have to develop talent and have a real shot every 3 or so years. making the 12 team playoff doesn't mean much. still 2 or 3 teams with a real shot and a buncha other teams filling up spots for tv dollars.

 

[KMac151993]

If Riley Leonard took the step that some people thought he was capable of taking (1st round pick), this could have been a national championship team.

...and I'd be Michael Jordan...I mean if I grew 5 inches, became awesome at the game of basketball.