Russia Invades Ukraine

[bobbyok1]

The city has been destroyed and the Russian Army has moved in to replace Wagner. Speaking to what is happening is not pro-Russia. The coverage of this has been like most coverage in recent years, incredibly dishonest.

I don't follow PerthDomer so I don't know what was said. But in response to your post, you are exactly right. Stating facts is not equivalent to being "pro-anything", or in this case pro-Russia. And yes, "incredibly dishonest" is a very good description of the Russia/Ukraine media coverage by the West.

Facts are facts, regardless of whether we like them or not.

 

[PerthDomer]

I don't follow PerthDomer so I don't know what was said. But in response to your post, you are exactly right. Stating facts is not equivalent to being "pro-anything", or in this case pro-Russia. And yes, "incredibly dishonest" is a very good description of the Russia/Ukraine media coverage by the West.

Facts are facts, regardless of whether we like them or not.

Russia has always been winning the war? On net Ukraine has been retaking territory since the initial offensive. Bakhmut isn't strategically important, but the Russians have been throwing men and material at it.

Ukraine is shaping the front for their upcoming offensive. They want the Russians to concentrate forces in Bakhmut so that they can try to make a breakthrough elsewhere or encircle the city.

 

[drayer54]

Russia has always been winning the war? On net Ukraine has been retaking territory since the initial offensive. Bakhmut isn't strategically important, but the Russians have been throwing men and material at it.

Ukraine is shaping the front for their upcoming offensive. They want the Russians to concentrate forces in Bakhmut so that they can try to make a breakthrough elsewhere or encircle the city.

 

[Irish#1]

From what I read, Russia has control of most of the city, but Ukraine basically has the city surrounded. If this is accurate then there’s no real advantage for Russia.

 

[GATTACA!]

I don't follow PerthDomer so I don't know what was said. But in response to your post, you are exactly right. Stating facts is not equivalent to being "pro-anything", or in this case pro-Russia. And yes, "incredibly dishonest" is a very good description of the Russia/Ukraine media coverage by the West.

Facts are facts, regardless of whether we like them or not.

Snowflake needs his safe space.

 

[bobbyok1]

This all seems very significant and a tremendous advantage to me.

 

[PerthDomer]

This all seems very significant and a tremendous advantage to me.

Sacks is a partisan hack. The argument on the mil side has been whether Ukraine has been wasting troops drawing the Bakhmut offensive out. Because their second line of defenses is easier to hold than the city. The recent developments have been Ukraine retaking the flanks and a raid into Russia itself.

Russia fights cross-border raid that Ukraine says is Russian opposition

Russia said on Monday it was battling a cross-border incursion by saboteurs who burst through the frontier from Ukraine, in what appeared to be one of the biggest attacks of its kind since the war began 15 months ago.

www.reuters.com

Ultimately, for Ukraine to win they need to breach Russian defenses somewhere like they did in Kharkiv. That requires they find a weak spot. All their recent moves are likely trying to pin more Russian troops away from the site of their upcoming offensive to thin the line out. Hence attacking the flanks of Bakhmut to pin more troops there and backing raids into Belgorod that seem to be quite successful so far.

The Russian theory of victory seems to be throwing human waves at fixed defenses and advancing tens of meters a day at the cost of staggering losses of men and materiel.

 

[drayer54]

Sacks is a partisan hack.

LOL Partisan in what way? Do you know what a partisan hack is? I'm not saying he's 100% right on everything, but he pointed his sources out quite well there.

 

[IrishLax]

I clicked through the articles linked above from David Sacks (how anyone takes that guy seriously after he dissolved into a puddle of tears over SVB I don't know) and even in the articles he chose to link to show how "important" Bakhmut is it says:

Military analysts say Bakhmut has little strategic value. It is not a garrison town or a transport hub or a major centre of population.

It quite obviously is not a "transportation hub" with the railways into it destroyed and the infrastructure in ruins. Points 3 and 4 in that tweet are valid but have to be taken with a grain of salt both directions... Prigozhin playing mind games? Zelensky doing the same? It's almost irrelevant either way because both are about optics, morale, and other intangibles.

No one outside of the pro-Russian horseshoe theory part of western extremist media seems to actually think Russia is doing well. They are suffering incredibly heavy attrition and they have finite resources that are being depleted at an astonishing rate. They have been ceding ground over the past year... just have to look at a map.

Their game plan right now is to tread water until the 2024 election and hope that Trump gets the nomination + White House. That is their only path to victory. It is exceedingly unlikely for them to achieve any kind of substantial victory as long as high quality equipment and arms continue to be supplied to Ukraine. They have to cut off their lifeline.

 

[drayer54]

I clicked through the articles linked above from David Sacks (how anyone takes that guy seriously after he dissolved into a puddle of tears over SVB I don't know) and even in the articles he chose to link to show how "important" Bakhmut is it says:


It quite obviously is not a "transportation hub" with the railways into it destroyed and the infrastructure in ruins. Points 3 and 4 in that tweet are valid but have to be taken with a grain of salt both directions... Prigozhin playing mind games? Zelensky doing the same? It's almost irrelevant either way because both are about optics, morale, and other intangibles.

No one outside of the pro-Russian horseshoe theory part of western extremist media seems to actually think Russia is doing well. They are suffering incredibly heavy attrition and they have finite resources that are being depleted at an astonishing rate. They have been ceding ground over the past year... just have to look at a map.

Their game plan right now is to tread water until the 2024 election and hope that Trump gets the nomination + White House. That is their only path to victory. It is exceedingly unlikely for them to achieve any kind of substantial victory as long as high quality equipment and arms continue to be supplied to Ukraine. They have to cut off their lifeline.

Do you think the Russians are buying time so that Trump wins and comes to their aid? Yikes. Did Comey and Jake Sullivan give you that theory?

Ukraine doesn't want to lose ground because they need support from the West. Anything that drops confidence in their army is bad because it makes it tougher pitch to get arms. They need bigger, badder guns now. We'll see if the jets help.

 

[GATTACA!]

This all seems very significant and a tremendous advantage to me.

Seems great until you realize the city and its capabilities are completely destroyed and they're about to be butt fucked in 360°.

 

[IrishLax]

Do you think the Russians are buying time so that Trump wins and comes to their aid? Yikes. Did Comey and Jake Sullivan give you that theory?

Ukraine doesn't want to lose ground because they need support from the West. Anything that drops confidence in their army is bad because it makes it tougher pitch to get arms. They need bigger, badder guns now. We'll see if the jets help.

Trump has publicly stated multiple that he would cut military aid to Ukraine:

“I don't think they should be sending very much, they should be negotiating peace,” he said. Mr Trump added that the war is “not going to stop” if the US continues to “just load something up”.

"We’re giving away so much equipment, we don’t have ammunition for ourselves right now,” he said. “We don’t have ammunition for ourselves we’re giving away so much."

It's his own words that he wants to stop supplying Ukraine. Russia needs to hold out until he wins, and then hope NATO stops backing Ukraine. Otherwise they have no realistic path to victory. Cut off Ukraine's lifeline and Ukraine is going to have to surrender/lose... they can't the fight the war without NATO munitions and equipment.

 

[ulukinatme]

Many have said it's an unwinnable war, with or without NATO munitions. Unless Russia completely bottoms out, the only way Ukraine retains complete ownership of their lands would be getting accepted into NATO and full military support to push Russia out. That's not likely going to happen, so the alternative is to continue giving Ukraine money with an inevitable outcome? Proxy war seems to prolong the conflict, and it allows Putin to get his way. They're over a year in and he's shown no signs of stopping.

 

[Irish#1]

Russians getting fed up and have taken up sides with Ukraine leading attacks in Belgorod. from cnn.com

• What happened in Belgorod? A group of anti-Putin Russian nationals, who are aligned with the Ukrainian army, claimed responsibility for an attack in Russian’s southwestern region of Belgorod, which borders northeastern Ukraine. Two areas of the region were then hit by unmanned aerial vehicles, according to regional Gov. Vyacheslav Gladkov, causing two houses to catch fire. One civilian from the village of Kozinka has died as a result of the cross-border fighting, Gladkov said on Tuesday. About 100 others were evacuated from the Russian border settlements of Glotovo and Kozinka in Belgorod, local authorities said.
• What did the attackers do? They appeared to have achieved surprise, apparently taking control of a border post and giving the world dramatic images of Russian nationals actively taking up arms against the Kremlin. Smoke was also seen rising from apparent explosions in the regional capital of Belgorod, where local authorities confirmed what they described as two drone strikes.
• Which groups are involved? The Freedom for Russia Legion said on Telegram early Tuesday that it and another group, the Russian Volunteer Corps, “continue to liberate the Belgorod region!” The post described the groups as “patriot volunteers” and claimed that Russia was vulnerable to attack as “Russia has no reserves to respond to military crises. All military personnel are dead, wounded or in Ukraine.”
• How is the incident playing out in Russia? As Russian officials condemned the attack, analysts noted widespread confusion in Russia’s information space about how the attack was allowed to take place and how Moscow should respond. It has the potential to be embarrassing for President Vladimir Putin, who has for 15 months been leading an invasion he baselessly claimed was needed to keep Russia safe. With limited returns on the battlefield, Putin may now face discontent that the war is disrupting life at home.

 

[GATTACA!]

Russians getting fed up and have taken up sides with Ukraine leading attacks in Belgorod. from cnn.com

This sounds good, but we need to wait for bobbyok1 to tell us what’s really happening.

 

[PerthDomer]

I'd bet you quite a bit Ukraine takes more land back. There's a pretty good chance they get back to 2020 borders and a very small chance they get back to 2014.

This is truly existential for their population and Europe/the US have been ramping up munitions production. On the other hand, Russia has been dipping into older and older weapons stores. The longer this goes the bigger the weapons disparity will get and the more trouble Russia will be in financially. They're dipping into reserves to pay for this, and until China decides it's worth getting hit by European sanctions they're mostly dependent on their own industrial base for supply.

If Putin wants to wait out a potential Trump win he needs to make it another 1.5 years. His casualty/attrition rate keeps going up the longer this goes. And if this does go that long, the Ukranians will still have European assistance.

 

[bobbyok1]

Russians getting fed up and have taken up sides with Ukraine leading attacks in Belgorod. from cnn.com

Seems like Putin's approval is extremely high and that it spiked in approval right around March of 2022 and has remained at 82% or so since. I wonder what happened around March of 2022? Hmm. . . Seems to strongly contradict this "Russians turning on Putin/Russia" narrative.

Putin approval rating Russia 2023 | Statista

Every nation's cultural map is fairly complex for a variety of reasons, including our own. Some Russians joining Ukrainians means little in the grand scheme of things. Plenty of questions remain about such "reports" from outlets such as CNN among others.

Is this even true? This a legit question these days with the voluminous fake news reports from propagandists increasingly poorly dressed in journalist garb.

If true, to what extent? Are these "Russians" in name only who would have various reasons to be pro-Ukrainian sympathizers?

If actual "Russians", does this equate pro-Putin, pro-Russian nationalists turning on Putin and Russia and making a true shift philosophically, politically, nationally, and otherwise? Highly unlikely.

 

[GATTACA!]

Seems like Putin's approval is extremely high and that it spiked in approval right around March of 2022 and has remained at 82% or so since. I wonder what happened around March of 2022? Hmm. . . Seems to strongly contradict this "Russians turning on Putin/Russia" narrative.

Putin approval rating Russia 2023 | Statista

Every nation's cultural map is fairly complex for a variety of reasons, including our own. Some Russians joining Ukrainians means little in the grand scheme of things. Plenty of questions remain about such "reports" from outlets such as CNN among others.

Is this even true? This a legit question these days with the voluminous fake news reports from propagandists increasingly poorly dressed in journalist garb.

If true, to what extent? Are these "Russians" in name only who would have various reasons to be pro-Ukrainian sympathizers?

If actual "Russians", does this equate pro-Putin, pro-Russian nationalists turning on Putin and Russia and making a true shift philosophically, politically, nationally, and otherwise? Highly unlikely.

Right on cue.

 

[jprue24]

From the head of Wagner... @bobbyok1 thoughts?

“We are in a situation where we can simply lose Russia,” Prigozhin said, using an expletive to hammer his point. “We must introduce martial law. We unfortunately … must announce new waves of mobilization; we must put everyone who is capable to work on increasing the production of ammunition,” he said. “Russia needs to live like North Korea for a few years, so to say, close the borders … and work hard.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/24/yevgeniy-prigozhin-war-backfired-revolution/

 

[GATTACA!]

From the head of Wagner... @bobbyok1 thoughts?[/URL]

As if he doesn't have you blocked lol.

 

[bobbyok1]

From the head of Wagner... @bobbyok1 thoughts?

“We are in a situation where we can simply lose Russia,” Prigozhin said, using an expletive to hammer his point. “We must introduce martial law. We unfortunately … must announce new waves of mobilization; we must put everyone who is capable to work on increasing the production of ammunition,” he said. “Russia needs to live like North Korea for a few years, so to say, close the borders … and work hard.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/24/yevgeniy-prigozhin-war-backfired-revolution/

Believe what the MSM continues to feed you, friend.

What are we to Make of Prigozhin and the Wagner Group? | The Gateway Pundit | by Larry Johnson

I am fascinated by the misinformation and deception being spread via social media channels about famed-Russian Chef, Evgeny Prigozhin, and his mythical military prowess.

www.thegatewaypundit.com

Prigozhin has openly claimed to be the creator of the IRA. He says all kinds of conflicting and confusing things. From the article:

"It also is important to understand that Prigozhin also takes the credit for creating the Internet Research Agency aka IRA, which the media describes as, “a notorious troll farm that the US government has sanctioned for interfering in American elections. Prigozhin is only too happy to take credit for the IRA. He provided the following press release in February:

“I react with pleasure,” Prigozhin said in the statement. “I’ve never just been the financier of the Internet Research Agency. I invented it, I created it, I managed it for a long time. It was founded to protect the Russian information space from boorish aggressive propaganda of anti-Russian narrative from the West.”

"The fact that Prigozhin is linked so publicly with a military organization and an internet information operation that are all under the control of Russia intelligence, leads me to believe that he is an important actor in the Russian campaign to deceive and confuse the West about its true military plans and objectives."

If you want to believe what the MSM and an actor of Russian Intelligence that's up to you.

 

[Irish#1]

Seems like Putin's approval is extremely high and that it spiked in approval right around March of 2022 and has remained at 82% or so since. I wonder what happened around March of 2022? Hmm. . . Seems to strongly contradict this "Russians turning on Putin/Russia" narrative.

Putin approval rating Russia 2023 | Statista

Every nation's cultural map is fairly complex for a variety of reasons, including our own. Some Russians joining Ukrainians means little in the grand scheme of things. Plenty of questions remain about such "reports" from outlets such as CNN among others.

Is this even true? This a legit question these days with the voluminous fake news reports from propagandists increasingly poorly dressed in journalist garb.

If true, to what extent? Are these "Russians" in name only who would have various reasons to be pro-Ukrainian sympathizers?

If actual "Russians", does this equate pro-Putin, pro-Russian nationalists turning on Putin and Russia and making a true shift philosophically, politically, nationally, and otherwise? Highly unlikely.

Comrade, you do realize that Putin controls the narrative and what comes out, much the same as why you claim anything coming from the west is controlled.

 

[drayer54]

Comrade, you do realize that Putin controls the narrative and what comes out, much the same as why you claim anything coming from the west is controlled.

No different than here, to be fair.

 

[PerthDomer]

No different than here, to be fair.

It's quite a bit different. We have numerous sources of media. Adversarial interviewing, and you don't end up in a gulag if you give the wrong answer to a poll.

 

[ndfanatic78]

It's quite a bit different. We have numerous sources of media. Adversarial interviewing, and you don't end up in a gulag if you give the wrong answer to a poll.

All major news outlets are owned by 5 companies in America and 90% of their information about politics and international affairs comes directly from one of the 3 lettered agencies of the govt or are State Dept. talking points.

 

[ndfanatic78]

How do you guys feel about American citizens being put on a kill list by the Ukrainian govt? How can you all still be listening to the propaganda? Wasn't this war supposed to be over before winter? Wasn't the Russian economy supposed to be in shambles by now? Weren't the Ukrainians supposed to walk right through the Russian military with the great western weapons? I thought all they needed were some arms or wait, no they needed armor, no wait they just need some drones, no now they need F-16's. Are we going to give them nukes next? This all could have been over 8 years ago with Ukrainians no longer giving their lives for western expansion and the greed of the military industrial complex which are the only winners in this currently. All this is doing is making America and the west weaker and moving more countries towards the BRICS alliance and away from the G7/NATO countries.

 

[Irish#1]

How do you guys feel about American citizens being put on a kill list by the Ukrainian govt? How can you all still be listening to the propaganda? Wasn't this war supposed to be over before winter? NO Wasn't the Russian economy supposed to be in shambles by now? NO, just squeezing it down some. Weren't the Ukrainians supposed to walk right through the Russian military with the great western weapons? Never heard that before I thought all they needed were some arms or wait, no they needed armor, no wait they just need some drones, no now they need F-16's. Are we going to give them nukes next? This all could have been over 8 years ago with Ukrainians no longer giving their lives for western expansion and the greed of the military industrial complex which are the only winners in this currently. All this is doing is making America and the west weaker and moving more countries towards the BRICS alliance and away from the G7/NATO countries.

Telephone rings.......
Hello, this is Joe Biden.
Jim Taiclet: Joe, This is Jim from Lockheed Martin. I'm sitting in a room with my friends from L3Harris, Raytheon, Northrup Grumman and General Dynamics. They all say hello. Listen, we want to pump up our stocks. We need for you to send a bunch of your military equipment over to Zelensky. Then you can order replacements and we can ramp up production and make more money.
Biden: No problem Jim. Anything to help out the military industrial complex.

 

[Irish#1]

'Nuclear weapons for everyone' who joins Belarus and Russia, Putin ally says

Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko's comment comes amid escalating nuclear rhetoric from Russian President Vladimir Putin, whose army is floundering in Ukraine.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[GATTACA!]

'Nuclear weapons for everyone' who joins Belarus and Russia, Putin ally says

Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko's comment comes amid escalating nuclear rhetoric from Russian President Vladimir Putin, whose army is floundering in Ukraine.

www.nbcnews.com

Crazy that Russia would need to incentivize allies to join their cause in a war they’re dominating.

Care to enlighten us @bobbyok1?

 

[Irish#1]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/30/europe/russian-spy-whale-sweden-scli-intl/index.html