2023 - State of the Recruiting Class

[CanadalovesND]

Thank God. That's one position I was sweating on. lol

Is he any good?

He's solid. This past season, he was not as accurate as he was in 2021 (11-13), but he has had only eight missed kicks the last three seasons. Perfect on XPs in his career, too.

 

[Irishdrunk]

This Kelly vs. Freeman debate is crazy.

If Kelly were still the coach and Freeman was headed back to take over Cincinnati with Fickell’s departure, ND would have a Michigan type class or worse. We all know that’s true. Kelly would be getting mopped at ND with the current landscape without an elite recruiter as his DC.

No its not crazy but the bigger issue is whether Freeman can be a winner as a HC. Nobody thought he would have such a bad season and lay 4 losses this year.

So we will find out in the next few years whether he is a winner. I suspect if it doesn't happen, the next HC will have a long track record like Kelly did coming into ND.

The bigger issue is Kelly won really well with not always securing Top 5 classes. Can Freeman get us elite with the recruits he is landing?

 

[NDMatt91]

No its not crazy but the bigger issue is whether Freeman can be a winner as a HC. Nobody thought he would have such a bad season and lay 4 losses this year.

So we will find out in the next few years whether he is a winner. I suspect if it doesn't happen, the next HC will have a long track record like Kelly did coming into ND.

The bigger issue is Kelly won really well with not always securing Top 5 classes. Can Freeman get us elite with the recruits he is landing?

Some of the issues with the roster, specifically at QB and depth at WR, were not his fault. However, he made a rookie mistake by listening to Rees and not bringing in a decent grad transfer QB. If he did, the team likely finishes 10-2. Kelly certainly would've if he didn't take the LSU job. He seems to have learned that lesson since they're targeting quality grad transfer QB's.

 

[EvilleIrish]

Ending of this class is turning out not great. I love Marcus, but if he can't bring in consistent top 5 classes I'm not sure he's it.

 

[Dale]

Ending of this class is turning out not great. I love Marcus, but if he can't bring in consistent top 5 classes I'm not sure he's it.

That’s a wild expectation LOL

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

1) Marcus didn't build his rep by outrecruiting other national powers. He did it by building a great defense at a G5 school with G5 recruits. His displayed recruiting prowess at ND certainly factored in getting him a promotion but his resume is nothing like a Tosh Lupoi.

2) I get the feeling that ND fans will just have to get used to watching this happen to its highest rated recruits and it has nothing to do with the coaching staff.

3) To a certain degree I think this class is only where it is because the staff built these relationships prior to the gloves coming off for other programs from an NIL perspective. I'm feeling pretty pessimistic about where this is all heading in future years; particularly for ND.

 

[Free Manera]

Ending of this class is turning out not great. I love Marcus, but if he can't bring in consistent top 5 classes I'm not sure he's it.

I have no expectation anyone could bring in top 5 classes to ND in the current climate. But if anyone could, it's Freeman.

 

[BoredIrish]

Freeman can win by using his charisma to try and change the ND admin.

Cant win on the field or in the living rooms until he wins that battle first.

 

[anarin]

Ending of this class is turning out not great. I love Marcus, but if he can't bring in consistent top 5 classes I'm not sure he's it.

Here I was thinking 88 got banned the other night...

 

[NDFAN2008]

Ending of this class is turning out not great. I love Marcus, but if he can't bring in consistent top 5 classes I'm not sure he's it.

Name me another coach in the country that would be recruiting better than Freeman right now if he was at ND? There isn't one. ND isn't tossing around money upfront like Georgia, Bama, Oregon, Ohio State, USC, ect. Also teams like Bama and Georgia have some of the best high school football in the united states they have 5 stars they have to turn down because kids wants to go there. If you took Kirby Smart and hired him as ND's head coach it wouldn't make a difference.

 

[yankeehater]

Name me another coach in the country that would be recruiting better than Freeman right now if he was at ND? There isn't one. ND isn't tossing around money upfront like Georgia, Bama, Oregon, Ohio State, USC, ect. Also teams like Bama and Georgia have some of the best high school football in the united states they have 5 stars they have to turn down because kids wants to go there. If you took Kirby Smart and hired him as ND's head coach it wouldn't make a difference.

Your statement, if true, makes it worse for me as a fan of ND. This would mean, as Kelly stated, that ND cannot bring in the talent to compete for a championship. Us as fans, should then be resigned to the fact and be happy with an occasional playoff appearance, but never hold out hope for a championship. Personally, I was hoping Freeman would be able to change the recruiting landscape at ND, but maybe it is just not possible. I is sad!

 

[NDMD]

The only way ND recruiting will be consistently top 5 the NIL era would be

1) a bunch of recruits promised up front payments never get them
2) ND is able to pay significantly more than other places and can start convincing recruits with a good track record after a few classes, or '
3) "pay to play" starts getting restricted and enforced by someone (and LOL if you think it'll be the NCAA)

 

[Free Manera]

Your statement, if true, makes it worse for me as a fan of ND. This would mean, as Kelly stated, that ND cannot bring in the talent to compete for a championship. Us as fans, should then be resigned to the fact and be happy with an occasional playoff appearance, but never hold out hope for a championship. Personally, I was hoping Freeman would be able to change the recruiting landscape at ND, but maybe it is just not possible. I is sad!

It is possible if the admin gives him a little help. It is not possible without a pretty significant change in both transfers and NIL.

Some people overthink it but it's really not that complicated. If Bama, LSU, Florida, FSU, Clemson, Penn State, Ohio State, USC, Oregon, Texas, Oklahoma, and Texas A&M can offer better NIL packages, and raid the portal every year, they are lapping ND in roster quality. That's all it comes down to.

ND already had a smaller pool of players to choose from; now you are just further constricting it by eliminating kids for whom NIL is a big factor. The free agent market (AKA transfers) is only going to make the best teams better as players buried on the depth chart leave, and they fill roster holes with upgrades.

ND has literally no advantage in this climate.

 

[Irishdrunk]

1) Marcus didn't build his rep by outrecruiting other national powers. He did it by building a great defense at a G5 school with G5 recruits. His displayed recruiting prowess at ND certainly factored in getting him a promotion but his resume is nothing like a Tosh Lupoi.

2) I get the feeling that ND fans will just have to get used to watching this happen to its highest rated recruits and it has nothing to do with the coaching staff.

3) To a certain degree I think this class is only where it is because the staff built these relationships prior to the gloves coming off for other programs from an NIL perspective. I'm feeling pretty pessimistic about where this is all heading in future years; particularly for ND.

Unfortunately, Marcus is going to find the same limitations at ND that Kelly found. The only difference maybe that Kelly could win with lesser talent. I hope Marcus gets the most out of his guys.

Direct NIL, Warm Weather, Dedicated Athletic Housing, Conference Play, Easier Academics and More Elite Facilities are not substantial and real hurdles to landing Top 50 studs, I don't think its just my imagination or that of BK's either.

How many Top 50 / 100 recruits value an Education and like Marcus to the exclusion of above limitations??

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

That's great.

For every Sauce Gardner, there's a JoJo Johnson or Jaden Bellamy or several other 3-stars that don't translate.

I'm all for taking projects with upside. But it can't be all ND brings in. ND needs the Bowen caliber players, because while they may not can't-miss, they generally have the highest probability to hit.

Same with DL. I think Armel Mukam can turn into a high level player, but he's extremely raw and has a lot of work to reach that point. Whereas Keeley is a guy who could realistically start week 1, and has a higher probability to be a high level player.

I'm not saying Freeman is wrong. He's approached the situation very well by recruiting contingencies everywhere (minus potentially Vyper, but perhaps you have a few guys in Zinter and Traore depending on how his body develops). But we had a very real chance of adding 3 5-star talents and were screwed over by this school's refusal to adapt to the changing landscape. Those are crucial talents that increase the ceiling of this roster.

It is great. Fully agree.

They're not just taking projects with upside and that information is readily available and easily known, nor did I ever claim that or suggest it.

The program hasn't been taking three star classes on level with Duke, Texas Tech, Kansas State, etc. Where they miss the mark for me is not getting in on the four star talent that seem like tremendous fits only to see these guys go to Northwestern, Stanford or wherever. I think those gaps can be filled by extended the four star net a bit wider with the guys we've seen go unoffered over the years and wind up contributing at a high level where the end up.

They're on the cusp of putting together their best class in years under a brand new regime. Some people are going to consume the situation differently. This will ultimately be seen as a disappointment by many here, and it sounds like you're leaning in that direction. So be it. I want this trajectory versus where TAMU, Miami and some of the others are at personally, and I could really give a fuck about Dante Moore and Keeley. Bowen is going to do whatever he does, and as soon as he arrives on campus they're going to have to recruit him to stay. That's the new landscape. You're recruiting your own roster, other rosters and high school players. I'm barely going to get attached to Kenny Minchey let alone Dante Moore.

 

[NDFAN2008]

Oregon is offering recruits and parents. Basically Nike is getting 6 figure jobs for these parents to basically do nothing is what it sounds like.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Oregon is offering recruits and parents. Basically Nike is getting 6 figure jobs for these parents to basically do nothing is what it sounds like.

Wait until these schools starting fucking over both the recruits and the parents. That'll make for fun times.

The same people talking about how ND won't adapt and get with the program will be the same ones hammering programs like Oregon for any bait and switching that happens in these situations.

I'm not ready to go there. Choosing between a hole in the roster or an asshole on the roster, give me the gap.

 

[stlnd01]

Your statement, if true, makes it worse for me as a fan of ND. This would mean, as Kelly stated, that ND cannot bring in the talent to compete for a championship. Us as fans, should then be resigned to the fact and be happy with an occasional playoff appearance, but never hold out hope for a championship. Personally, I was hoping Freeman would be able to change the recruiting landscape at ND, but maybe it is just not possible. I is sad!

Maybe BK saw the NIL train coming and figured Notre Dame wouldn’t adapt. But for most of his tenure here he recruited below the level Freeman is now and that was before NIL.

I’m of the belief that Notre Dame will adapt to NIL in recruiting - maybe we won’t go to the level of Oregon and A&M but we’ll match what most of the big boys are currently doing, and hopefully soon - and that, plus Freeman, plus the appeal of Notre Dame will keep us in the top 5-7 range.

 

[condoms SUCk]

Maybe BK saw the NIL train coming and figured Notre Dame wouldn’t adapt. But for most of his tenure here he recruited below the level Freeman is now and that was before NIL.

I’m of the belief that Notre Dame will adapt to NIL in recruiting - maybe we won’t go to the level of Oregon and A&M but we’ll match what most of the big boys are currently doing, and hopefully soon - and that, plus Freeman, plus the appeal of Notre Dame will keep us in the top 5-7 range.

This is where I'm at right now. Recruiting is completely untethered, and I feel like ND just needs to stay competitive on the field (top 10 finishes and playoff appearances) for the next few years and then MF can pivot and have a legitimate shot at top recruiting classes once the NIL landscape settles down.

 

[Armyirish47]

Maybe BK saw the NIL train coming and figured Notre Dame wouldn’t adapt. But for most of his tenure here he recruited below the level Freeman is now and that was before NIL.

I’m of the belief that Notre Dame will adapt to NIL in recruiting - maybe we won’t go to the level of Oregon and A&M but we’ll match what most of the big boys are currently doing, and hopefully soon - and that, plus Freeman, plus the appeal of Notre Dame will keep us in the top 5-7 range.

Top 5 -7 range with balanced classes will be just fine. I still think the Notre Dame competitive advantage will be keeping kids at higher rates than others with the whole 4 for 40 thing, so if we can stay balanced and hit the lottery at QB the program will soar, recruiting ranking championship belts be darned.

 

[NDPhilly]

Top 5 -7 range with balanced classes will be just fine. I still think the Notre Dame competitive advantage will be keeping kids at higher rates than others with the whole 4 for 40 thing, so if we can stay balanced and hit the lottery at QB the program will soar, recruiting ranking championship belts be darned.

This is where i'm at. 5-7 is a jump from where Kelly was at (10-14 on average). I also think NIL will spread out top talent more than it has been in the previous 5 years (see Miami and Oregon) and we'll see more variety at the top of the recruiting team rankings. ND's players are significantly less likely to impulsively transfer than your generic football factory for playing time to your point as well.

 

[NDMatt91]

plus Freeman, plus the appeal of Notre Dame will keep us in the top 5-7 range.

When Marcus was hired I figured we'd be in that range every single year, and that was the biggest reason I wanted him as the HC. Even if he doesn't become quite the coach that BK was, the rosters should theoretically be filled with more NFL players. BK's average recruiting class, among his full classes (2011-2021) was 12th, per 247. Marcus should have us in that 5-7 range or so nearly every year.

The main frustration that many fans, including myself, had with BK wasn't with his coaching but rather the recruiting. Just look back to that 2015 team. If that team had players who were part of 2 or 3 more top 5-ish classes, like the 2013 class, on the roster, we finish the regular season undefeated and could have possibly won the entire thing.

 

[Katzenboyer]

Ending of this class is turning out not great. I love Marcus, but if he can't bring in consistent top 5 classes I'm not sure he's it.

Brian Kelly's first full class was ranked #10 on Rivals. Whatever might happen with Bowen and Limar, this class should exceed that, and it's MF's first year on the job.

Let's maybe cool out on the hysterics.

 

[Katzenboyer]

The main frustration that many fans, including myself, had with BK wasn't with his coaching but rather the recruiting. Just look back to that 2015 team. If that team had players who were part of 2 or 3 more top 5-ish classes, like the 2013 class, on the roster, we finish the regular season undefeated and could have possibly won the entire thing.

Or how about the 2019 and 2020 classes -- i.e., this year's juniors and seniors? Ranked #14 and #22, respectively, and the latter class only had 17 kids.

 

[Crazy Balki]

This class is pretty much guaranteed to exceed every Kelly class, with the possible exception to 2013.

That's only if Bowen flips and there are no further surprise commits.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Or how about the 2019 and 2020 classes -- i.e., this year's juniors and seniors? Ranked #14 and #22, respectively, and the latter class only had 17 kids.

Agreed.

The big problem is that while '19 and '20 had their bright spots, they're all 3-and-done guys. You had guys like Hamilton and Kyren holding up the class in '19, but they were gone by their senior year.

Then in '20, you had Mayer, who is off to the league. Then after that, Jordon Johnson never played a meaningful snap at ND. Tyree has been a serviceable change of pace back. Mills have been a good mainstay of the DL rotation. Botelho has flashed but not much else. Watts may have found his calling at safety.

The rest is pretty much a wash. Maybe Baker makes a jump in his senior year. Or Carmody? Maybe Bauman can finally stay healthy?

Overall, the upperclassmen for this year's team and last were just not overly talented. Compare them to '22 and '23 (and to a lesser extent '21), it's not even close.

 

[Dale]

Sinclair has done many pieces on this, including today:

Sinclair’s Midweek Recruiting Rundown – Freeman vs. Kelly

In this week’s Recruiting Rundown, Irish Illustrated crunches the data to compare Kelly-era recruiting to Marcus Freeman’s first recruiting class as head coach.

247sports.com

Don’t want to rip all the work but in short. NDs glut of like Top 200 type kids far exceeds an average BK class. Some wish that was Top 50 kids instead and it could have been, but the Greathouse, Shuler, Flores type guys that are in the middle tier (or undervalued) is where this class blows away BK.

 

[Dale]

In a way more abstract way, there are also so many guys where I see them and I think, I don’t know that this guy doesn’t finish an elite player. There are some guys in general where it’s pretty obvious yeah he has a ceiling probably at solid player. Like Vernon, once a top prospect, would it surprise anyone if he was just a monster? Traore? Braylon James? Maybe more bust potential is the trade off with some but there are many more athletic specimens in this class than safe guys. And the one safe guy is just the greatest safe prospect of all time (Greathouse).

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Whatever context you put this class in, however you want to hold it up, people are going to choose to be disappointed and dwell on things that either already happened or that they have had weeks if not months of forewarning about.

If we start to see more of the same in terms of the effort and results, we know we have problems. Right now, it seems like it is a notch above in the early on goings. The decommitments happen in varying degrees to everyone. How those are handled and how they adapt to account for filling their needs is important, even if it isn't an ideal result.

 

[NDpendent]

We had a good recruiting class in 2022 with a few holes on offense. An even better class in 23 with only one hole at vyper. If Freeman and staff can land a top 5 class in 24 we are going to start looking really good on paper. The NIL excuses are getting boring. Notre Dame has the largest fan base in the county and it's spread out more then any other place. Recruits (especially the smart ones ND targets) know this. Once on campus our guys are getting paid better then they would at most campuses. We might loose some 5 star guys because of NIL but we can land more 4 star guys then we could before NIL existed.