In defense of Latina?

[piyachi]

A lot this season has been made of the awful mess that is the Notre Dame offensive line. Some of this blame has gone towards Charlie Weis, due to his pre-season decision to run non-physical practices that lacked real hitting. A significantly larger portion of the criticism has been directed at the offensive line coach, John Latina, who many believe has failed to generate a dominant unit in his tenure at Notre Dame.

I think both of these criticisms hold some merit, as well as some partial fallacy. My gut reaction is to say 'Hey, forget the situation - a winner wins and this man hasn't been able to do his job'. But after reflecting on the situation I think there are some real reasons that we have been hamstrung up front with the big uglies. As the season ends and the coaches head out on the recruiting trail, it seems increasingly likely that Latina will be with the Irish into 08. Thus I felt it is necessary to look at the past 3 years and see whether the criticism is valid or not.

2005

Situation: Weis is entering his first year and the Irish have an offensive explosion - jumping to one of the top rated offenses in the nation. Brady Quinn has a breakout year, and Darius Walker rushes for nearly 1200 yards.

Offensive Line:

LT - Ryan Harris (6-5, 288, JR) - Mike Turkovich (6-6, 290, FR)
LG - Dan Santucci (6-4, 290, SR) - Brian Mattes (6-6, 285, SR)
C - Bob Morton (6-4, 292, SR) - John Sullivan (6-4, 298, JR)
RT - Dan Stevenson (6-6, 292, SR) - Scott Raridon (6-7, 304, SR)
RT - Mark Levoir (6-7, 311, SR) - Paul Duncan (6-7, 292, FR)

Evaluation: This is really the best offensive line of the past three years. We have an almost all-senior starting line and all are legitimate. The biggest glaring spots here are the lack of sophomore and junior depth as well as how light all these seniors are. Ty preferred the lighter/quicker offensive lineman, which doesn't gel with Charlie's pro-style offense. Latina seems to have been able to install the system well with good players despite their physical limitations.

Grade: B+


2006

Situation: The Irish come into the year ranked #2 in pre-season polls and looking to improve on their 9-3 record and BCS bowl loss. Brady Quinn is looking to be one of the top heisman candidates, and most of the skill players are back to back him up.

Offensive Line:

LT - Ryan Harris (6-5, 292, SR) - Mike Turkovich (6-6, 290, SO)
LG - Dan Santucci (6-4, 290, 5th) - Eric Olsen (6-4, 290, FR)
C - John Sullivan (6-4, 298, SR) - Bob Morton (6-4, 292, 5th)
RG - Bob Morton (6-4, 292, 5th) - Brian Mattes (6-6, 287, SR)
RT - Sam Young (6-7, 292, FR) - Paul Duncan (6-7, 292, SO)

Evaluation: The team as a whole didn't live up to the hype, getting beaten soundly by top competition. While most of the blame lies with the defense giving out points to anyone that asked, the offense looked lost at times, and certainly didn't dominate like 05. The players were about the same size as the previous year, so either they hit a ceiling for gaining weight or they were not coached well in terms of gaining size. Young started all games as a freshman and did well for the situation while having some struggles. Clearly depth is already becoming a concern as the two-deep has two sophomores, two freshman, and one starter being a potential backup for Sullivan.

Grade: C


2007

Situation: Notre Dame is turning the page having lost most of its starters. Though no one is actively saying it is a rebuilding year, all signs point to a downturn from the previous year. Virtually the entire 2-deep is being replaced along the line, there are new receivers, running back, and quarterback. However they are all more highly touted coming out of high school and ND looks to use youthful talent over experience.

Offensive Line: (granted there was a lot of movement)

LT - Sam Young (6-8, 310, SO) - Taylor Dever (6-5, 289, FR)
LG - Mike Turkovich (6-6, 301, JR) - Thomas Bermenderfer (6-5, 285, JR)
C - John Sullivan (6-4, 303, SR) - Dan Wenger (6-4, 287, SO)
RG - Eric Olsen (6-5, 303, SO) - Dan Wenger (6-4, 287, SO)
RT - Paul Duncan (6-7, 308, JR) - Chris Stewart (6-5, 339, SO)

Evaluation: Well the team was awful, and a lot of the troubles extended from the O-line. We gave up record numbers of sacks, penalties, and negative yardage plays. That all being said we did so largely because we only had two returning starters among the ENTIRE two-deep and one of them was a sophomore. The unit showed moderate improvement as the year went on, but still lacked any luster. Sullivan did not look like his old self, and Wenger actually looked like one of the best players on the unit by seasons end.

Grade: D



The point of all this is to show that Latina has been a moderate to good coach. It seems that while we still have yet to have an overpowering offensive line unit, a lot of it is attributable to size issues in 2005/2006, depth issues in 2006/2007, and inexperience issues in 2007. It seems that Weis may hold off passing judgment on Latina until the end of the 2008 season and I would advise others to do so as well. While we haven't seen much in terms of a finished product, we have been growing our current players (18 lbs by Young in one offseason - whew!) and we couldn't possibly have another situation where we replace the entire unit in one season.

 

[ColonialHead]

Outstanding write-up Piyachi.

Thanks for taking the time to put that together. I really hadn't thought of it in those terms and I can't imagine many other fans have either. Until you break it down in that manner and list all of the players by year, as a unit and with their class/height/weight next to their name, you really can't fully understand what Latina has had to work with.

I have been hard on Latina as well, but this provides another perspective and a good read.
Thanks.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Latina went from being the best OL coach in the SEC...with his teams at Ole Miss allowing the least sacks 3 out of his 5 years there...to being a dud? I don't buy it.

I think he's a stud, but was given direction that threw off his training regimen. Weis canceled full contact practices. I can't imagine how an OL player can NOT practice FULL contact.

 

[Sureal]

How Weis prepares for the season as far as practices are concerened will be one of the things that he will evaluate and remedy during the coming off season. I believe he has learned from his mistakes from this past campaign. Heck he better.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

How Weis does his preparation I believe will be one of the things that he will evaluate and remedy during the coming off season.

it will be critical...he obviously did not develop young talent the right way...he needs to get some help from the NCAA ranks to sort it out. If he does that, this team will improve by leaps and bounds.

 

[Sureal]

it will be critical...he obviously did not develop young talent the right way...he needs to get some help from the NCAA ranks to sort it out. If he does that, this team will improve by leaps and bounds.

Key. I don't think Bill Belijerk coached college football before.

 

[johnnd05]

Nice job, Jared. Wanna blog it?

 

[SoCalDomer]

I just thought this thread needed this. Now, why would an OL coach need defense? hmm..

 

[piyachi]

Nice job, Jared. Wanna blog it?

Ya darn tootin I do :thumbsup:

 

[piyachi]

I just thought this thread needed this. Now, why would an OL coach need defense? hmm..

Haha smartass

 

[OCIrish]

Piyachi

Good job on the post. I've been very hard on Latina, not here, but over at BGI. I didn't know that CW had let practice get so non combative until this season. That explains alot in terms of how our OL's have performed from year to year. In the NFL, OL have already spent 4 or 5 years honing their techniques and footwork. By the time they're in the pros, they already know the intracancies(sp?) of blocking. All they have to do in the NFL is put them to use in whatever blocking scheme the team uses. While they can still learn and somewhat practice their techniques in college, they need to do it at full speed, full contact, repeatedly until they have it down to an exact art and science. What I mean is, they have to not only practice their own movements, but they also have to learn to react to what the DL's movenment and what the DL is trying to do to him as well. You can't do that in shoulder pads and shorts. That is something that has to be done at breakneck speed as much as possible. I remember reading somewhere about Latina's lines being some of the best in the SEC, and on top of that he is supposedly a Joe Moore disciple. That damned guy had the greatest OL's I have ever seen in college. God rest his soul. I don't think any team in modern history has averaged close to the what, 6 or 7 yds per carry back in the early 90's. I think in 91' or 92', possibly, we averaged over 7 yds. a carry. That is just straight up roadgrading people.

 

[mbooch]

I agree. Kudos to Piyachi, and good for Latina. I have been sticking up for him with my cohorts. He had to coach the YOUNGEST O line I've ever heard of this year, and try to accomodate CW's NFL-itis, as well as the dink and dunk.

College ball is NOT pro ball. The O line has to be allowed to pancake people. That's what they like, and what defenses respect. CW has got to shelve his infatuation with "finesse" and "nuance". They don't win college games. SLOBBERKNOCKERS do.

 

[piyachi]

I agree. Kudos to Piyachi, and good for Latina. I have been sticking up for him with my cohorts. He had to coach the YOUNGEST O line I've ever heard of this year, and try to accomodate CW's NFL-itis, as well as the dink and dunk.

College ball is NOT pro ball. The O line has to be allowed to pancake people. That's what they like, and what defenses respect. CW has got to shelve his infatuation with "finesse" and "nuance". They don't win college games. SLOBBERKNOCKERS do.

I completely agree although I take it from a different perspective. I think Weis felt pigeonholed this season into running the dink and dunk because of our o-line problems and general youth on the offense. This stemmed in part from the non-physical practices that stemmed from lack of depth. In other words I think the turnover and youth are the ultimate culprits of both the infuriating playcalling and the look of confusion out there.

Good for you for sticking up for Latina because before I looked at the numbers I was wondering why he was still getting a paycheck.

 

[mbooch]

I completely agree although I take it from a different perspective. I think Weis felt pigeonholed this season into running the dink and dunk because of our o-line problems and general youth on the offense. This stemmed in part from the non-physical practices that stemmed from lack of depth. In other words I think the turnover and youth are the ultimate culprits of both the infuriating playcalling and the look of confusion out there.

Good for you for sticking up for Latina because before I looked at the numbers I was wondering why he was still getting a paycheck.

Well said. Ultimately, the recruiting poison pill left by Ty "Sand Wedge" Willingham swamped everything this year. Next year will hopefully be different.

BTW One BIG reason for the "dismal" running stats, which I've been trying to educate my friends about, is the misleading way college footbal accounts for SACKS. SACKS are scored as unsuccessful RUNS, and, when you have as many as ND does, it skews both the rushing and passing stats, not to mention misrepresents the playcalling balance. I scorekeep a sack as an incomplete, i.e. unsuccessful, pass that loses yardage, and a "flush" (when the QB scrambles and gains yards on a pass play) as an incomplete i.e. unsuccessful, pass that GAINS yardage. THAT gives a clearer picture of how productive the two sides of the offense really are, AND what the pass-run balance really is. Based on what I've calculated, it does NOT paint a pretty picture of ND's PASSING game this year!

 

[piyachi]

Absolutely - I have never understood the connection between what is pretty much a failed passing play and rushing yardage. Along those lines, I wish that dropped passes versus caught passes was a more prominent statistic for receivers and that dropped passes were not included as incompletions for the QB (sort of the same when a receiver causes an interception).

 

[mbooch]

Amen. Drops need to be properly assessed. Perhaps not on the "official" stats, but certainly in any coach's grading system.

 

[SoCalDomer]

I added this to the blog comments and thought I would bring it over here too.

Much has been made about us starting sophmores and freshman on the line. Outsiders then quip, “but other schools have SO & FR starting on their line.” I think this response misses the point.

Look at the depth, because I think this is where a major problem lies. Schools that start SO & Fr likely have two and three deep, with SR & JR backups. They likely don’t have one starter as the first back-up at other positions; we did in the multiple depth charts this year. Backing up the SO & FR starters this year are SO & FR, and a JR who just came to the program this year. This is significant.

Sam Young said when he played last year, Bob Morton (5th yr) told him what to do. I doubt he would have been as good last year if he didn’t have play by play instruction. He had the physical tools, just not the mental know-how.

This year, the only one who could have possibly acted like Bob Morton in telling the young guys what to do on each play is Sullivan (SYoung is not a “veteran” with one year on the line), and I don’t think he has the skill or attitude to fill that role. Plus, can you imagine him actually trying to tell four other lineman who to block on each play!?!

I think Craig made a very valid point. Regardless of CW’s or JL’s credentials, the question is whether together they can put a good OL on the field. Let’s hope they adopt “It’s Clobber’n Time” as the OL motto this offseason.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Good points all around. The only disagreement I had w/ the origianl post was I'd give the '07 a grade of 'F'.

SoCal points to what I hope is the primary reason why the OL has struggled: depth. With only 27 upperclassmen (JR, SR, 5th) on scholarship (for a comparison, LSU has 24 SR on scholarship alone) w/ zero scholarship JR OL.

I agree w/ LMI in that Latina did more w/ less at Ole Miss & put some kids in the NFL. One kid, Stacey Andrews, didn't even play high school football. He was a track & field athlete who had the size worth investing a scholarship in (& his brother was AA OL & current Eagle, Shawn Andrews). I can't buy the point that Latina just forgot how to coach between Oxford & South Bend.

I hope & pray that it's not a situation of Weis micromanaging everything Latina does to the point that Weis is forcing a circle into a square by insisting that recent HS graduates absorb the intricacies & the footwork of an NFL blocking scheme.

 

[goldandblue]

I pray with you!

 

[goldenlid]

ND has not been able to run theball why would CW not just say ok just line up and hit guys and open up holes for the RB's.

 

[goldandblue]

In junior high that would work. In college, defensive schemes are so complex, just lining up and hitting someone is absolutely not going to work.

 

[JeremyND07]

We have not had a dominate OL sense Latina has been here period. I give the 2006 grade a D (because they should of been MUCH better with all the senior talent) and 2007 a big F because they could not protect the QB or open holes unless it was against Duke and Standford! Top OL recruits continue to underachieve sense Latina has been here so I have no faith in his development of top talent!!!

Guys like Morton, Sullivan, Harris, Duncan, and Turkovich did not or have yet to meet their potential under Latina. The young talent we have at OL needs a coach to develop them into first and second round draft picks...which I think Young, Wenger and Olsen have the potential to do!!!

 

[goldandblue]

I'm in agreement with you. He just hasn't seemed to get the job done.

 

[piyachi]

So you give the 06 Oline a D despite the fact that we went 10-3, to a BCS bowl, had a rusher with over 1200 yards, a quarterback that threw for almost 3500 yards, and two receivers with about 1000 yards each.

Good thing you aren't in charge of grading - I have news for you, those don't come from nowhere. As you can see from the past season, it takes a good O-line to make anything happen for the offense.

 

[GoIrish41]

So you give the 06 Oline a D despite the fact that we went 10-3, to a BCS bowl, had a rusher with over 1200 yards, a quarterback that threw for almost 3500 yards, and two receivers with about 1000 yards each.

Good thing you aren't in charge of grading - I have news for you, those don't come from nowhere. As you can see from the past season, it takes a good O-line to make anything happen for the offense.

very good point piyachi.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

So you give the 06 Oline a D despite the fact that we went 10-3, to a BCS bowl, had a rusher with over 1200 yards, a quarterback that threw for almost 3500 yards, and two receivers with about 1000 yards each.

I'd say the output they got from their skill players would garner the '06 OL a C. The 2006 OL vastly underachieved. It was obvious that they missed LeVoir & Stephenson.

Ryan Harris regressed. Bob Morton would be a 1st rd. pick if it was based on character & heart, but the kid just never excelled. Before this year, this OL gave up a record number of sacks w/ a 4 yr starter behind center. No offense to Walker, but he got a lot of his yds vs. inferior teams. To his credit he had a helluva first half in both the USC & LSU games.

I think the OL would have to credit Quinn & the WR/TE/RB for the W/L record. Going into '06, I knew the defense would be our Achilles Heel, I just never expected the experienced OL to regress in the manner they did.

 

[mbooch]

I added this to the blog comments and thought I would bring it over here too.

Much has been made about us starting sophmores and freshman on the line. Outsiders then quip, “but other schools have SO & FR starting on their line.” I think this response misses the point.

Look at the depth, because I think this is where a major problem lies. Schools that start SO & Fr likely have two and three deep, with SR & JR backups. They likely don’t have one starter as the first back-up at other positions; we did in the multiple depth charts this year. Backing up the SO & FR starters this year are SO & FR, and a JR who just came to the program this year. This is significant.

Sam Young said when he played last year, Bob Morton (5th yr) told him what to do. I doubt he would have been as good last year if he didn’t have play by play instruction. He had the physical tools, just not the mental know-how.

This year, the only one who could have possibly acted like Bob Morton in telling the young guys what to do on each play is Sullivan (SYoung is not a “veteran” with one year on the line), and I don’t think he has the skill or attitude to fill that role. Plus, can you imagine him actually trying to tell four other lineman who to block on each play!?!

I think Craig made a very valid point. Regardless of CW’s or JL’s credentials, the question is whether together they can put a good OL on the field. Let’s hope they adopt “It’s Clobber’n Time” as the OL motto this offseason.

Amen! Complicated or not, the ofensive line HAS to start PANCAKING people.

 

[Wham]

Good points all around. The only disagreement I had w/ the origianl post was I'd give the '07 a grade of 'F'...

SoCal points to what I hope is the primary reason why the OL has struggled: depth....

I agree w/ LMI in that Latina did more w/ less at Ole Miss & put some kids in the NFL. One kid, Stacey Andrews, didn't even play high school football. He was a track & field athlete who had the size worth investing a scholarship in (& his brother was AA OL & current Eagle, Shawn Andrews). I can't buy the point that Latina just forgot how to coach between Oxford & South Bend.

I hope & pray that it's not a situation of Weis micromanaging everything Latina does to the point that Weis is forcing a circle into a square by insisting that recent HS graduates absorb the intricacies & the footwork of an NFL blocking scheme.

Nice post.

Last year I was almost as much a Latina doubter as much as I was a Minter doubter. This year, I'm glad Minter is gone, but now I'm doubting CW more than I am doubting Latina.

 

[Wham]

In junior high that would work. In college, defensive schemes are so complex, just lining up and hitting someone is absolutely not going to work.

Don't be so sure about that.

Area blocking...

Tail will not wag the dog.

 

[Wham]

ND has not been able to run theball why would CW not just say ok just line up and hit guys and open up holes for the RB's.

Because they "theorize" about scoring points.

They don't "play" football.

Game against Stanford, they just lined up and hit guys and opened holes for the RBs. All it took was practicing one or two plays over and over and over and over and over and over and over......