Relax on Weis

kmoose

Banned
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
1,181
I went back to read my initial post you responded to and I wanted to make something clear that I may not have. I'm not saying I know the kicker would have made it. Nor was I saying I think he, the kicker we have, would have made it. You're right, anyone within the program including Weis would have a better gauge on his abilities, his practice kicks and his current record.

I think we generally agree that the upside of kicking (in general) were better than the upsides of going for it. And the downside of missing the kick wasn't as bad as the downside of not making in on 4th down.

Sorry for any confusion, hope my clarification helps.


Meh, I don't take disagreements here personally. Now, Wham humping my leg everytime I post after him? That's a bit more than simple disagreement. I can understand Weis' logic. According to him, they had a "drop dead" position on the field, beyond which they were not going attempt a field goal. But I still think, in that particular situation, you have to trot your kicker out there and give him a chance. The one criticism I will absolutely make of Weis is that he seems to be too inflexible to stray from his gameplan, once the game begins. Sometimes you just have to go with your gut (no pun intended).
 

SoCalDomer

New member
Messages
4,954
Reaction score
412
Agree to disagree here, I'm moving on to Air Force, what's done is done

That sounds fine with me. So much of what's being discussed on the board comes from the emotional roller this season has caused. It's amazing what a few days removed will do to the psyche.

I'm still frustrated about the loss, but I'm moving on and cheering for the Irish. Hoping that next week Saturday I don't take another nose dive of death on the roller coaster of this season.
 

johnnd05

Johnny T. works for me
Messages
4,522
Reaction score
275
Sadly, no matter how many times it's said. or who says it, there will always be those whose first reaction is to drum up <del>excuses</del>, er...."explanations."

E.g.:

I just had my STU NAHAN MOMENT!! I'm BEGINNING TO SEE THE STRATEGY NOW!!

He's MAKING THE COLLEGE FOOTBALL WORLD MISS!!

It is as plain as the Chin on Don Zimmer's Chin!!

The GBot is using the "Rocky III Paradigm!!" OMG!! I can see it all!! Don't you see?? Much like Rocky III, which involved Two key Championship Fights, Rocky had to LOSE the first to FIND HIMSELF and WIN THE SECOND, before taking on THE COMMIE BASTARDs in Rocky IV. Much like Boogie With Stu noted, "I'm beginning to see the strategy now!!"

You see, the GBOT saw that the Lads were becoming TOO COMPLACENT with their easy victories and DOMINATION over the past two years, much like ROCKY got complacent after taking the title. So when KDub talked of scheduling patsies, the GBOT, like Mick, saw it COULD NOT SUCCEED and THREATENED TO RESIGN!! KDub COULD NOT SEE, but the GBOT saw clearly now, the rain had GONE!! The GBOT is ALWAYS thinking three or four moves ahead of the college football world, and here, he was strategering in terms of MULTIPLE YEARS, using this year as a LESSON!! He was going to LET THE COLLEGE FOOTBALL WORLD WIN this year, get their confidence up, a la Clubber Lang, and then, after some WICKED TOUGH training led by former Oakland Raider Appollo Creed, in an urban environment, including swimming, speed training, dance-type moving with a heavy bass backbeat, and HOMOEROTIC running on the beach and men HUGGING EACH OTHER IN SLOW MOTION IN TIGHT SHORTS AND SOCKS with BRIGHTLY COLORED RINGS with water spashing about, all the whilst regaining the ORIGINAL Survivor (not the CBS MONSTOSITY) EYE OF THE TIGER!! YEAH!! HELLS YEAH!!

Then, with Stu making the call, we will TIRE THE Clubber Lang COllege Football World out by MAKING THEM MISS with their haymakers, and then, SHOCKING THE WORLD with a CHAMPIONSHIP won with speed, grit, homoeroticm and THE EYE OF THE TIGER that will also bring THE RACES TOGETHER as Apollo will KISS Italian Paulie while enjoing the Irish SUCCESS!!

It is CLEAR FOR ALL TO SEE!! GLORY!! GLORY!! GLORY!!

LMAO ...

Man, though ... being a Negative Nellie really sucks. Let me try this instead:

Chug, chug, chug the Kool-Aid.
Gently down your throat.
Chug it, chug it, chug it, 'til
You believe he's a great coach.


:party:
 

SoCalDomer

New member
Messages
4,954
Reaction score
412
Meh, I don't take disagreements here personally. Now, Wham humping my leg everytime I post after him? That's a bit more than simple disagreement.

I never thought this smilie would come in handy.

leghump.gif


Bad Wham, bad. :eek:grin:
 

Wham

Banned
Messages
396
Reaction score
38
Maybe the problem with ND football is that they are trying to play for the entire existence of football, and Rockne's ghost. They don't want to make mistakes.

Fuck fear.

Fuck mistakes.

Challenge them and improve.

I think Our Lady will still love us.
 

Wham

Banned
Messages
396
Reaction score
38
Meh, I don't take disagreements here personally. Now, Wham humping my leg everytime I post after him? That's a bit more than simple disagreement. ).

Better to hump a leg and let them feel important than squash them.

Hope ND football gets better than silverspoon status.

LOL
 

Timugen

MEAT-BAT
Messages
766
Reaction score
48
E.g.:

<snip> Marco babble<snip>

LMAO ...

Man, though ... being a Negative Nellie really sucks. Let me try this instead:

Chug, chug, chug the Kool-Aid.
Gently down your throat.
Chug it, chug it, chug it, 'til
You believe he's a great coach.


:party:

Gotta love Marco; it's entertaining, if nothing else.
 

Wham

Banned
Messages
396
Reaction score
38
leghump.gif


Get off my leg, man

Quit stickin your leg on my pp. Dummy. Go back about a few years or so and learn to play football. Then talk about it. Get over yourself. Dummy. Or quit "propagand Eye zing" for someone.
 

kmoose

Banned
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
1,181
Quit stickin your leg on my pp. Dummy. Go back about a few years or so and learn to play football. Then talk about it. Get over yourself. Dummy. Or quit "propagand Eye zing" for someone.

leghump.gif


Down, boy...........DOWN!
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,119
That sounds fine with me. So much of what's being discussed on the board comes from the emotional roller this season has caused. It's amazing what a few days removed will do to the psyche.

I'm still frustrated about the loss, but I'm moving on and cheering for the Irish. Hoping that next week Saturday I don't take another nose dive of death on the roller coaster of this season.

Isn't a roller coaster supposed to have some highs? :)
 

marv81s

v v v KamaraPolice's GF
Messages
1,463
Reaction score
66
And this still isn't true.

OK dude, you can refuse to believe it, that makes it true then


and sorry for confusing "little to no improvment" as none.

for clarification, there has been improvement THROUGHOUT the season, if everyone refuses to see it because ND finally lost to Navy, then fine. I don't care. You can accuse me of "drinking the Kool Aid", but a loss to Navy, who has beaten much better teams this year, and the year before and basically since Coach Johnson has been there doesn't make the season a total loss and doesn't mean there hasn't been improvements made by the freshman and sophomore players as a whole.
 
Last edited:

wahoo

New member
Messages
442
Reaction score
26
OK dude, you can refuse to believe it, that makes it true then


and sorry for confusing "little to no improvment" as none.

for clarification, there has been improvement THROUGHOUT the season, if everyone refuses to see it because ND finally lost to Navy, then fine. I don't care. You can accuse me of "drinking the Kool Aid", but a loss to Navy, who has beaten much better teams this year, and the year before and basically since Coach Johnson has been there doesn't make the season a total loss and doesn't mean there hasn't been improvements made by the freshman and sophomore players as a whole.

I fail to see where the team has improved. The OL still can't block,the defense can't stop teams,the playcalling is questionable,the QB play is inconsistant,the wideouts drop passes and we are 1-8. Where exactly have we improved??
 

marv81s

v v v KamaraPolice's GF
Messages
1,463
Reaction score
66
I fail to see where the team has improved. The OL still can't block,the defense can't stop teams,the playcalling is questionable,the QB play is inconsistant,the wideouts drop passes and we are 1-8. Where exactly have we improved??

i'm done. I think I've explained this subject in some other weis bashing and ND team bashing in some other thread

you keep thinking that guys like Duval, Tate, AA, JA, Olson, Paris, Ragone, Hughes, Brian Smith, Neal, Walls, Laws, Kuntz, Ian Williams have shown no signs of improvement and taht CB hasn't been a plus to have for our defense.
 
M

Moostache

Guest
I fail to see where the team has improved. The OL still can't block,the defense can't stop teams,the playcalling is questionable,the QB play is inconsistant,the wideouts drop passes and we are 1-8. Where exactly have we improved??

I will grant you that the O-Line can't block...they got beat on too many critical plays in that game (usually Turkovich or Olsen but others can share some of the blame too) against a vastly under manned Navy defense....but then again, there have been quite a few times in the last 43 years that the same thing could be said. Holtz teams generally beat Navy pretty handily, but even in those games, there were isolated plays here and there that a Navy player just flat out whipped a bigger, faster, more talented ND player and made a play. The biggest difference then versus this catastrophic season was that those previous ND teams could AFFORD "x" number of those plays and rally to wins. Not this year....

As far as the defense getting the blame for the Navy game....they held them to more than 100 yards below their season average rushing and well below their season average in ypc. They gave up 3 offensive TDs in the game and had the offense hang them out to dry yet again with Sharpley's braindead fumble that was returned for a Navy TD. If people want to insist that the defense lost the game because they gave up 2 TDs and a 2-pt play in 3 OTs, then I guess you can say that....BUT, had the offense not done inexplicably bad in sudden change (no points off Navy fumble), short yardage (stuffed on the 2-pt play and several other short yardage situations in the game) and QB play (Sharpley's 17-27 should have been mor elike 24-27 for a LOT more yardage against THAT defense), if any of those things was not the way it was, then the defense played well enough to win the game. How many times did previous ND teams beat Navy teams after surrendering 3 offensive TDs? The answer is quite a few actually....so to pin this latest disaster on the defense is a tad disingenuous...

Playcalling is what it is...indefensible. The non-FG attempt will haunt Weis for the rest of his time at ND regardless of anything else he does (or does not) accomplish at ND. I thought the bookend masacres to UM and USC would be the lowest point Charlie Weis hit in his time at ND...I was wrong. Even if Weis does secure this year's recruits and eventually win BCS games and MNCs, he will forever be linked to decisions that ended a streak of wins - that in all honesty, if it had not ended this year just might have gone on for another 43 years - that was historic in length. The fake FG and the non-FG attempt will be his albatross for a very long time and will also be his footnote in ND history. Sad to say it, but the 38-0 losses to UM and USC had recent, albeit unpleasant, historical precedence (2003). The flacid playcalling and lack of offense against NAVY however does NOT have such a buffer. This one stains Charlie like red wine on linen...some things just can't ever be cleansed...

As for the WRs dropping passes, I think Kamara has been doing that all year and if memory serves it was something that Mo Stovall had HUGE trouble with for his first 2 years and even part of his junior year as well... WRs will drop passes, even the best WRs will drop them from time to time...granted that Grimes is never going to be confused with a "great one", but he and the other WRs did not perform very well this year. That was just another factor in the death rattle of this squad since September.

Bad O-Line play makes for bad QB-play.
Bad QB-play makes for bad WR-play.
Bad WR-play leads to a stangnat offense.
A stagnant offense makes it harder on the O-Line and RBs...lather. rinse. repeat...

The situation continues to got south and more and more it has looked like a runaway freight train this year....building negative momentum on top of negative momentum until the only thing that can stop the insanity is an end to this year's schedule and a complete off-season overhaul. It can't be fixed this year (hell this season was officially a bust at half-time of the GT game as far as MNC goes), and since that is the only championship ND can play for, the 2007 season lasted all of 30 minutes.

The intervening 8 games have done nothing to calm people's fears or give much hope for the future; but the truth is that ND has not been playing in a meaningful game since the second quarter of the opener against GT. By the time the wheels came completely off against Michigan two weeks later, the course of this season was likely set in stone. Playing for pride and all that is fine and well, but having a team loaded with underclassmen in all the skill positions and with under-achieving 5th year 'leaders' made that an unlikely scenario from the start. Hindsight is always 20-20, but the reality is the talking heads were right. Mark May is a human penis, but he does have a staff of people working with and for him at ESPN. They could guess and look dispassionately at what we could not allow ourselves as fans to see - the make-up of the players on this ND team did not lend itself to a successful season (too young, too inexperienced, too thin on crucial positions, not enough competition for jobs yet), and in fact was far more likely to devolve into a massive trainwreck than a competitive unit - which is EXACTLY whats happened.

In order to get better, in order to make sure that in 2008 at least we can get to halftime of the SECOND game without the season essentially being over, these things must occur:

OL --> better hit the gym with a renewed fury....they need to add size and strength and also add quickness to their technique and footwork and gain a very nasty streak to themselves as individuals and as a unit. That was needed all year, but it is not something that can be developed in the middle of a season...it takes untold hours and dedication away from the practice field and meeting rooms...

RB --> these guys need to become more decisive in their runs and realize that running hard into a brink wall only means you will get stopped faster...their vision and picking a hole or a sliver or a crack to attack needs to be improved...but in fairness the best 3 are really all freshmen....true Aldridge was on campus last year, but being hurt and playing less than 1/4 of the season in 2006 is hardly a wealth of experience to draw on. Jabbie and Thomas are soon to be alumni and the team will be better via addition by subtraction...

WR --> one can only hope that Kamara and Parris do a better Shark-and-Mo impression next season. Each has flashed potential, but each has also flashed maddening inconsistency and the ability to disappear from games for waaaay too long at a stretch. Adding Floyd and seasoning Tate into that mix for 2008 and I can see that unit having enough talent and experience to really hurt some teams next year...

QB --> this is the glamour position, the lynchpin of the Weis offense and all that, but the fact is Sharpley has looked almost exactly the same against both great defenses (USC) AND shitty defenses (Navy). That to me is screaming "I am at my ceiling right now!" And here I was thinking he played poorly against USC....in reality it appears to me that he played as well as he is ever going to play and then showed marvelous consistency by duplicating the effort against Navy...in all seriousness, Clausen will be the QB in 2008 and porbably the rest of 2007 and when he is 100% healthy (no more hip pointers or arm troubles with spurs) and has a full off-season and summer of throwing (not just hanging out but actually THROWING) to the WR corp, I expect that he will be at least 3 or 4X better than he has been able to show so far. I think the difference between Jimmy and Evan at this point is at least one can plausibly say that Clausen has not been physically right and able to show in games what his best will look like...for Evan, I don't think that's the case....

The offense can only be fixed with time and coaching and players who want to improve themselves more than the coaches want to help them improve. Brady Quinn was special. Apparently Evan did not notice or absorb any or enough of Brady's work ethic to set the previous 2 years example at the top. By many accounts, it remains to be seen if Jimmy can do it, but he has more potential and probability of doing it than Evan.
 

LOVEMYIRISH

old timer
Messages
5,125
Reaction score
409
Via BGS:

the Heart of the Matter

Mike Frank has a revealing piece today over on Irish Eyes, where he calls up former ND captain Shane Walton to talk about the Irish defensive effort versus Navy and get his take on this year's Irish squad:

Shane's right in some ways. A lot of the guys on the team give their all. But there are some I question...
 

ulukinatme

Carr for QB 2025!
Messages
31,513
Reaction score
17,371
I think Weis helped get the ball rolling for Kelly. He at least didn't leave the cupboard bare, not like Willingham did. Weis got screwed in 2007 because of Willingham's shoddy recruiting. In '05 and '06 Weis was able to do good things with the remains of Davie's last classes, but by '07 his upperclassmen were Ty's and there was a lack of leadership and talent. It took awhile to bounce back, and unfortunately the shuffling of DCs didn't help the struggling defense. Weis was also much better recruiting offense than defense.
 

Irish8248

Well-known member
Messages
1,994
Reaction score
880
I think Weis helped get the ball rolling for Kelly. He at least didn't leave the cupboard bare, not like Willingham did. Weis got screwed in 2007 because of Willingham's shoddy recruiting. In '05 and '06 Weis was able to do good things with the remains of Davie's last classes, but by '07 his upperclassmen were Ty's and there was a lack of leadership and talent. It took awhile to bounce back, and unfortunately the shuffling of DCs didn't help the struggling defense. Weis was also much better recruiting offense than defense.

I held on to the last game or two before I was finally about firing CW. He overachieved for the most part and greatly benefitted from Quinn to Shark/Rhema/Mo combo. He did a pretty solid job recruiting though had trouble sealing the deal. We have him to thank for hiring Pollan who recruited Teo who helped build what we have today.... that being said, the dude is loaded for doing a shitty job coaching at multiple places lol
 

Irish YJ

Southsida
Messages
25,888
Reaction score
1,444
I think Weis helped get the ball rolling for Kelly. He at least didn't leave the cupboard bare, not like Willingham did. Weis got screwed in 2007 because of Willingham's shoddy recruiting. In '05 and '06 Weis was able to do good things with the remains of Davie's last classes, but by '07 his upperclassmen were Ty's and there was a lack of leadership and talent. It took awhile to bounce back, and unfortunately the shuffling of DCs didn't help the struggling defense. Weis was also much better recruiting offense than defense.

Had he had more stability at DC, with guys who could recruit D better, CW's story might have been different. Total one sided regime.
 

arahop

Well-known member
Messages
1,601
Reaction score
615
I think Weis helped get the ball rolling for Kelly. He at least didn't leave the cupboard bare, not like Willingham did. Weis got screwed in 2007 because of Willingham's shoddy recruiting. In '05 and '06 Weis was able to do good things with the remains of Davie's last classes, but by '07 his upperclassmen were Ty's and there was a lack of leadership and talent. It took awhile to bounce back, and unfortunately the shuffling of DCs didn't help the struggling defense. Weis was also much better recruiting offense than defense.


Weis did just fine with Tyrones recruits the first 2 years.
Thank Weis for the training table and singing the alma ar the end of every home game.

Left the cupboard in better shape but not full by any means.
Weis didn't work out because he wasn't head coach.
Tyrone was interested in golfing,
Charlie liked Cheeseburgers on Sundays,

BK wants a statue out in front of the stadium
 

Polish Leppy 22

Well-known member
Messages
6,594
Reaction score
2,009
Weis did just fine with Tyrones recruits the first 2 years.
Thank Weis for the training table and singing the alma ar the end of every home game.

Left the cupboard in better shape but not full by any means.
Weis didn't work out because he wasn't head coach.
Tyrone was interested in golfing,
Charlie liked Cheeseburgers on Sundays,

BK wants a statue out in front of the stadium

Man, you have idiotic posts in this thread too???

1. The roster Weis inherited ins't close to what he left Kelly in 2010.

2. Thank Weis for having a top 5 graduation rate his entire time at ND and elevating ND somewhat.

3. Thank Weis for Pass Right.

4. Weis had his issues but his work ethic can't be questioned. He slept 4 hours a night, worked his ass off, loved recruiting, and doesn't play golf.

5. Weis didn't work because he had no experience in college football, had no continuity on defense, and lacked big time in strength/ conditioning/ training table.
 

phillyirish

................
Messages
1,931
Reaction score
884
Weiss was an elite recruiter but awful at developing players. Look at the 2009 draft, the first one where a player played 4 years under Weiss, only one player was drafted in David Bruton. The next year there was 4 but 3 of them where elite 5 star players: Clausen, Tate, Sam Young (who is surprisingly starting for the Raider right now) and the other being Eric Olsen. Kelly’s first draft class only had Kyle Rudolph drafted, again that’s mostly due to Weiss as these players had 2-3 years of neglected development under him.

Kelly has consistently got 4-8 players in most drafts, with the exception of 2015 (1) and 2017 (2). More importantly, many low ranking recruits have developed under him like Bennett Jackson (composition 523rd ranked player, 6th rd pick), Nick Martin (529, 2nd rd) and Julian Love (480, 4th rd) just to name a few. What’s more, is that the players drafted are actually impact players in the NFL helping to reestablish the Notre Dame name, Zach Martin, Stanley, Nelson, Harrison Smith all all pro players. Tuitt is All-pro worthy, and Mcglinchey is close. Fuller is having a breakout year and Claypool should be a consistent force in the stable Steelers program for the next 10 years.
 
Top