Running out of Room?

[kjones]

WR is a tough position to master when making a jump from one level to the next. This is why rookies rarely make a huge impact as pros, but you see a lot of vet guys coming out of nowhere. Hopefully some current guys develop. It's a bit too early to call any of them wasted yet. But there is much work to be done, that's for sure.

Definately too early to call any of them wasted, in fact, I'd be very surprised if none of them stepped up their game and turned into a very good receiver. This was actually one of my key criteria when saying I'd be a little surprised if we take 3 WR. We've got some very talented athletes already in the mix, and it's not like we've had deficit in any of our recruiting years. Including a few walkons, (i think 3?) we have 10 wide recievers right now on the roster. This is not including freshmen coming in. I just don't think you can really justify having much more than 8-10 on scholarship (that's 2 a year, plus fifth years).

This is also why i could see someone like Tate getting a spot again, who can be a WR or a RB. If you want to count that person as a 3rd WR or a second RB, that's cool. But I'm just not sold that we need more.

Regarding spring practice, I followed it just about as close as you can, and i was wondering what made you think that our WR's are so bad off? I know a lot of people think the B&G game was proof of where our receivers stand but I don't buy that argument. Too many other factors to really put things on the WR's shoulders without some other clues. And here's a question people don't ask, how'd our receiver block in the B&G game? CW really wants WR's who can block, and a lot of people overlook that part of our offense. Like Stovall, he was an AWESOME blocker.

Anyway, perhaps its my natural optimism, but I'm not despairing of our WR's just yet, as we really havn't had the chance to see much of them yet. I think as a group they might surprise some people. Or they could suck, but I think we really just don't have much info yet.

 

[williamson143]

IrishUncleBill-

Awesome thread and analysis, man. Seriously. Was just wondering what the general consensus was now that Clelland has given the Irish #12 for the season. IUB mentioned in another thread that "...It is still early, but if ND get three or four more commits in May, the pressure is going to start to mount on kids like Filer & Floyd to decide whether ND is really the place for them." Well Hafis and Clelland are 1 and 2 of that scenario, so where do folks think this is heading?

I posted this on II and got no response, but do you think that there comes a point when the individual recruiting class takes on a life of its own, thus making potential recruits commit based on a desire to become part of something special? It just seems to me that there are certain instances where a particular class starts to snowball and form its own reputation and personality, and kids want to commit to being a part of that as much as committing to a football team and university. I hope that is becoming the case for the Irish right now. Twelve commitments before the end of May is unbelievable.

My last thought- I was going back over the DT numbers since 2003 on rivals and scout. According to those numbers, Notre Dame has only managed to bring in three true defensive tackles in five recruiting classes. Three. Two is good for this year, but wouldn't you think to get a couple more? TO me, this seems to be the biggest area of focus at this point.

 

[knute]

My last thought- I was going back over the DT numbers since 2003 on rivals and scout. According to those numbers, Notre Dame has only managed to bring in three true defensive tackles in five recruiting classes. Three. Two is good for this year, but wouldn't you think to get a couple more? TO me, this seems to be the biggest area of focus at this point.

Got to believe that they'd take three if they could get Williams, Forston & Newman. Otherwise, I think they'd be ecstatic with any 2 and content with 1. Remember, in a 3-4 they only need to rotate in 2 nose tackles, so normally you wouldn't recruit more than 1 per year.

 

[kjones]

My last thought- I was going back over the DT numbers since 2003 on rivals and scout. According to those numbers, Notre Dame has only managed to bring in three true defensive tackles in five recruiting classes. Three. Two is good for this year, but wouldn't you think to get a couple more? TO me, this seems to be the biggest area of focus at this point.

Just because a kid isn't listed under DT doesn't mean they aren't a "true DT recruit." Most lineman (myself included) played both ways in High School, and often excell to the same extent on both sides of the ball. Kicking @$$ is kicking @$$ no matter which side you line up on. I wouldn't be so quick to just write off guys like Nuss and Nwankwo as "not true defensive recruits" just because they were also recruited on the O-Line. The change in emphasis from offense to defense is really nothing compared to changing from HS to College level in playing speed and style.

Still, I agree with you conclusion, that we need probably 3 guys at least, but for a different reason. My major concern is that a 3-4 look needs three guys with their hands down, which means we need to be recruiting about 3 guys a year for those positions. Now the DE's can be a little smaller than "true DT's" but they are still 3 point guys, which we definately need more of.

 

[knute]

Still, I agree with you conclusion, that we need probably 3 guys at least, but for a different reason. My major concern is that a 3-4 look needs three guys with their hands down, which means we need to be recruiting about 3 guys a year for those positions. Now the DE's can be a little smaller than "true DT's" but they are still 3 point guys, which we definately need more of.

Yeah, it's a little confusing right now because the recruiting services project HS players to their expected 4-3 position, which doesn't translate directly to a 3-4 position. Trattou was a DE in HS who probably would have bulked up to a DE in the 3-4. Sean Cwynar is a DT in HS who'll probably be a DE in the 3-4. Laws was a DT last year and a DE this year. Seems like Hafis Williams could go either way.

But I like the way you're thinking of it, kjones. We need three DL each year, at least. We've got two.

 

[johnnd05]

john just showed you an example of a NC team loaded with 5th years. I would appreciate it if you could produce an example to substantiate your opinion.

Silence ..........













Oh wait, I think I just heard the sound of crickets chirping.

 

[williamson143]

Agreed

Agreed

I played a little bit on the line in high school, so I know what you mean. I guess the gerneral thing that I am getting at with the need to bring in more pure-position DTs has to do with ND establishing a precedent with this recruiting class. I think it has been generally recognized that the one critical weakness in Irish recruiting over the last few years has been the ability to land top-shelf talent on defense. While I think the coaching staff is making significant strides this year, I would like to see more hard-hitting true DE/DT guys commit to the team. I think that it would make a statement about the direction that the Irish defense is heading, and make our future recruiting efforts easier.

 

[scooper]

Silence ..........

Oh wait, I think I just heard the sound of crickets chirping.

Funny, isn't it?


To be fair, I understand where he's coming from. It's just not a realistic approach to building a football team.

 

[CharlotteND]

I generally agree that all early signs say that this year is a strong year for WRs.

However just to quibble on a one point, I think that part of the reason why you see so many WRs highly ranked in ESPN 150 and other rankings, is that WR is generally an easier position to evaluate athletically. Those initial lists can't go wrong by listing every 6'3" guy in the country who can run a sub 4.7. Once more detailed evaluations come out, I think you'll see those that don't have the hands, intangibles, or knowledge of the game drop a bit, and other positions rise up a bit more.

I still agree that it's probably a strong year for WRs

I agree. I think the WR slot is almost as important to ND's success as QB. If CW could end up with Floyd/Butler/Baldwin, in addition to John Goodman, I am sure he would take them all in a heartbeat. The WR's are usually some of the most elite athletes in any recruiting class, but in 2008 that is even more the case, with a good possibility that 10 of the Top 50 consensus national recruits this year will be WR's. ESPN 150 currently has 7 WR's in their Top 20, and that does not even include the likes of Kenny Tate, Brice Butler, or Martavious Odoms. This is going to be a big recruiting year for this group, and I'm not sure the ND staff would be happy with only 1 more WR recruit. I'm hoping for the best on Floyd, and if not Floyd, I have to believe that CW will land at least one of those guys currently offered, but the problem is that none of them appear to be a lead pipe cinch, which leads to a strong possibility that the Irish may have to delve into the 2nd tier to meet their needs.

 

[son of rook]

I'm sorry if my point of view offend your view of how you build a National Championship program. I guess it's what I believe after watching several good coaches build National Championship teams at Notre Dame while I have been a fan of Our Lady school since I was nine years old . If you recruit good enough talent you don't need 5th year people who could be starting for the first time because you have recruited poorly like Davie and Willingham did. An example of recruiting properly would be our 1988 National Championship Team which I believe the first 22 starters were made up of a freshman, 9 soph, 6 jr and 6 senior. I'll give you that one of the seniors was out hurt for a year but he started for four years. By the way Notre Dame won the 46, 47, 49,53, 66, 73, 77, and 88 National Championships without the use of 5th year players . I guess it alright to start sophmores if you have recruited properly.

 

[scooper]

I'm sorry if my point of view offend your view of how you build a National Championship program. I guess it's what I believe after watching several good coaches build National Championship teams at Notre Dame while I have been a fan of Our Lady school since I was nine years old . If you recruit good enough talent you don't need 5th year people who could be starting for the first time because you have recruited poorly like Davie and Willingham did. An example of recruiting properly would be our 1988 National Championship Team which I believe the first 22 starters were made up of a freshman, 9 soph, 6 jr and 6 senior. I'll give you that one of the seniors was out hurt for a year but he started for four years. By the way Notre Dame won the 46, 47, 49,53, 66, 73, 77, and 88 National Championships without the use of 5th year players . I guess it alright to start sophmores if you have recruited properly.

1. Nobody is offended. We simply disagree with your point.

2. 1988 was almost 20 years ago. I'd like to see a national championship team from the last decade without a significant amount of 5th year seniors. John showed you the makeup of the most recent team-which seems to point to experience making a difference. When you can show us a recent champ without that experience, you'll have a point.

 

[son of rook]

Well Scooper I really wasn't worried if you were offended I was simply giving my point of view which I believe is just as legitimate as any that you gave. I get a kick out of tone of the postings of you and your friends and your high and mighty comment of being ND people. Some day you may realize ND people are not rude and superior acting as the arrogance of your posting indicate. Ive been a loyal fan of ND for over sixty years and I would never put another ND fan for their beliefs that don't agree with mine. I'm old enough to realize I may be wrong and should try to digest anothers thoughts. Your attitude is exactly the reason so many people hate ND people and cause the rest of us to defend your immature comments. Well enough of this I wish you a good season and go ND. I hope I experience my ninth National Championship and you get to experience maybe your first.

 

[scooper]

Well Scooper I really wasn't worried if you were offended I was simply giving my point of view which I believe is just as legitimate as any that you gave. I get a kick out of tone of the postings of you and your friends and your high and mighty comment of being ND people. Some day you may realize ND people are not rude and superior acting as the arrogance of your posting indicate. Ive been a loyal fan of ND for over sixty years and I would never put another ND fan for their beliefs that don't agree with mine. I'm old enough to realize I may be wrong and should try to digest anothers thoughts. Your attitude is exactly the reason so many people hate ND people and cause the rest of us to defend your immature comments. Well enough of this I wish you a good season and go ND. I hope I experience my ninth National Championship and you get to experience maybe your first.

What the hell is this all about? Nobody questioned your loyalty to ND. Not once. Find a post where we did?

Also, find one post where somebody put you down? We asked you to produce one recent team as evidence of a champion without a lot of 5th year seniors. That's not putting you down. That's asking you to back up your opinion. God forbid somebody disagree with you. This post from you is much harsher than anything I posted.

Immature comments? Which ones? I'm sticking up for the fifth year seniors who busted ass for Notre Dame and now that some of them are contributing, you're ready to throw them out the door. How about that for loyalty?

In the end, I'm willing to bet at least three fifth years are kept-for many of the same reasons we have discussed here. And I'll be thrilled for those guys that they will get to spend another year on scholarship at ND. Just as I'll be happy for the kids coming in.

Now. Please tell me what is arrogant about that.

 

[scooper]

2. 1988 was almost 20 years ago. I'd like to see a national championship team from the last decade without a significant amount of 5th year seniors. John showed you the makeup of the most recent team-which seems to point to experience making a difference. When you can show us a recent champ without that experience, you'll have a point.

I just re-read this. Is it arrogant to ask you to provide evidence to back you up? For the record, if you can show us such a team, I will say nice job. There you go. Good example. I just feel senior leadership and physically mature and developed players are very important to winning.

Look at Florida St. last year as an example of what we may be facing this year with a lot of freshmen and sophomores taking a leadership role. Those are two highly rated classes but they will have some struggles due to youth. FSU had the same issues this year.

 

[marv81s]

Well Scooper I really wasn't worried if you were offended I was simply giving my point of view which I believe is just as legitimate as any that you gave. I get a kick out of tone of the postings of you and your friends and your high and mighty comment of being ND people. Some day you may realize ND people are not rude and superior acting as the arrogance of your posting indicate. Ive been a loyal fan of ND for over sixty years and I would never put another ND fan for their beliefs that don't agree with mine. I'm old enough to realize I may be wrong and should try to digest anothers thoughts. Your attitude is exactly the reason so many people hate ND people and cause the rest of us to defend your immature comments. Well enough of this I wish you a good season and go ND. I hope I experience my ninth National Championship and you get to experience maybe your first.

What is really bothering you dude? Do you need to talk about it, because you need to relax a little bit.

Nobody questioned you on your loyalty to ND. They are just asking you to help provide facts to support you arguement and now your getting way too defensive.

 

[IrishRocks]

An example of recruiting properly would be our 1988 National Championship Team which I believe the first 22 starters were made up of a freshman, 9 soph, 6 jr and 6 senior. I'll give you that one of the seniors was out hurt for a year but he started for four years. By the way Notre Dame won the 46, 47, 49,53, 66, 73, 77, and 88 National Championships without the use of 5th year players . I guess it alright to start sophmores if you have recruited properly.

I don't usually post here and I am going to "age" myself a little, but I know that the 1988 National Championship team was anchored on Defense by three 5th year senior starters because they were in my class on the team during the 1987 season: Wes Pritchet, Frank Stams, and Flash (Darrell) Gordon were all 5th year senior LB starters. As a matter of fact the 1987 team, Coach Holtz's first year, had several 5th year seniors starters especially on the offensive line. Coach Holtz knew the importance of having the right 5th year guys return to build and lead a team. Count me in Coach Holtz's camp.

 

[HereComeTheIrish]

Well Scooper I really wasn't worried if you were offended I was simply giving my point of view which I believe is just as legitimate as any that you gave. I get a kick out of tone of the postings of you and your friends and your high and mighty comment of being ND people. Some day you may realize ND people are not rude and superior acting as the arrogance of your posting indicate. Ive been a loyal fan of ND for over sixty years and I would never put another ND fan for their beliefs that don't agree with mine. I'm old enough to realize I may be wrong and should try to digest anothers thoughts. Your attitude is exactly the reason so many people hate ND people and cause the rest of us to defend your immature comments. Well enough of this I wish you a good season and go ND. I hope I experience my ninth National Championship and you get to experience maybe your first.

What the freaking hell is this all about? Perhaps you need to go back and see what was actually being said instead of judging the "tone of the postings" (by the way, how the F--- do you do that on a message board anyways?) You've obviously got an axe to grind with Scooper and perhaps others so let's just get it all out there so we can resolve the problem at hand... and hopefully we'll be able to yank that giant pinecone out of your ass because for crying out loud, you need to loosen the hell up.

 

[rockne19]

irishrocks,I'am not being picky but 1986 was holtz's first year not 1987.

 

[Jason Pham]

Well Scooper I really wasn't worried if you were offended I was simply giving my point of view which I believe is just as legitimate as any that you gave. I get a kick out of tone of the postings of you and your friends and your high and mighty comment of being ND people. Some day you may realize ND people are not rude and superior acting as the arrogance of your posting indicate. Ive been a loyal fan of ND for over sixty years and I would never put another ND fan for their beliefs that don't agree with mine. I'm old enough to realize I may be wrong and should try to digest anothers thoughts. Your attitude is exactly the reason so many people hate ND people and cause the rest of us to defend your immature comments. Well enough of this I wish you a good season and go ND. I hope I experience my ninth National Championship and you get to experience maybe your first.

Ironic, isn't it, that you start your post criticizing others of being arrogant and conclude your rant with a statement that in itself hints at an air of arrogance. Nobody here attacked your personal character. The discussion was respectably and tactfully carried about in lieu of the difference of opinions until you decided, in a knee-jerk reaction, to take these differences to a personal level and defend and counterattack on a personal level. I rather enjoy a difference of opinions as it leads to a diverse and multidimensional community of contributors but these differences and discussions are ruined when a party cannot carry it out without taking things to a personal level. A majority of the contributors disagreed with your point of view, respectfully I might add, and wanted, for the sake of discussion, for you to substantiate your arguments. That's all there is to it, and if you cannot continue this without getting upset over a difference of opinion, then I suggest you invest less of your time on internet message boards where a diverse amount of opinions are present.

 

[HereComeTheIrish]

Ironic, isn't it, that you start your post criticizing others of being arrogant and conclude your rant with a statement that in itself hints at an air of arrogance. Nobody here attacked your personal character. The discussion was respectably and tactfully carried about in lieu of the difference of opinions until you decided, in a knee-jerk reaction, to take these differences to a personal level and defend and counterattack on a personal level. I rather enjoy a difference of opinions as it leads to a diverse and multidimensional community of contributors but these differences and discussions are ruined when a party cannot carry it out without taking things to a personal level. A majority of the contributors disagreed with your point of view, respectfully I might add, and wanted, for the sake of discussion, for you to substantiate your arguments. That's all there is to it, and if you cannot continue this without getting upset over a difference of opinion, then I suggest you invest less of your time on internet message boards where a diverse amount of opinions are present.

Well said, Phammer.

 

[johnnd05]

I think the tone I'm taking here will be different than that of some.

I'm genuinely sorry that some of my remarks to you were rather snide; that was in response to some perceived harshness on your part as well as a result of my frustration with your insistence that we should just cut guys loose, but I really should have held back.

You're right, of course, that NC's have been won in the past without fifth-year seniors, and ND held on to this policy much longer than most schools (as I myself noted, buried in one of my too-long posts). But times have changed, and ND's policies have, to a limited degree, changed as well. At this point, I think it would be well-nigh impossible to win without fifth-year seniors, and you'd be hard to find a program in the last decade or so that has been at the elite level without them.

I hope you don't stop posting here just because people went after you a bit. With your knowledge of the history of the program, you could be a real asset to the board. Again, I really do apologize for going after you in that way and with that tone.

 

[johnnd05]

For those of you who asked for specific examples of posts that were "immature" or attacking, I submit the following choice examples from my own smart-mouthed keyboard:

Originally Posted by son of rook
Top team start the most talented people not 5th yr seniors who if they were any good would have left their junior year.​

Unless, they, um, wanted to finish their degrees. Which, um, happens sometimes.

And, um, I'm an asshole sometimes.

And then there's this:

Originally posted by scooper
john just showed you an example of a NC team loaded with 5th years. I would appreciate it if you could produce an example to substantiate your opinion.​

Silence ..........













Oh wait, I think I just heard the sound of crickets chirping.

And I think I just read a post by a smartass laptop jockey.

As I said, Son of Rook, I do apologize ...

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

Dang I hate it when people use "Um". Why don't they just say 'you're a dumbass' instead of beating around the bush. That is just soo gay (not that there is anything wrong with it).

 

[johnnd05]

Dang I hate it when people use "Um". Why don't they just say 'you're a dumbass' instead of beating around the bush. That is just soo gay (not that there is anything wrong with it).

Okay, then: I'm an asshole sometimes!

(And with that, goodnight everyone ...)

 

[kjones]

Dang I hate it when people use "Um". Why don't they just say 'you're a dumbass' instead of beating around the bush. That is just soo gay (not that there is anything wrong with it).

Lol. I got a kick out of this post stoney. Thanks for the chuckle.

I also think that 4 or 5 people replying in such a manner to Son of Rook might have been a little excessive. If you are not a frequent poster, it can be intimidating to put your opinion out there, and when many disagree, who mostly know each other and seem almost like an elite club, it could be very natural to sense they are being condescending with their tone, even if such was not in fact the case.

If such a case arrises again, a few kind words might help bring them around a lot more (a la johnnd05, reps to you btw) than several people saying "what the hell" etc. I love you guys to death, but if I was this guy, I'd feel more confirmed about it being an elite club rather than less. I do think he was mistaken and out of line, but maybe we could try to make our responses kinder as well.

Feel free to attack me personally for this post all you want

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

Okay, then: I'm an asshole sometimes!

(And with that, goodnight everyone ...)

I was joking john........LOL

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

Lol. I got a kick out of this post stoney. Thanks for the chuckle.

I also think that 4 or 5 people replying in such a manner to Son of Rook might have been a little excessive. If you are not a frequent poster, it can be intimidating to put your opinion out there, and when many disagree, who mostly know each other and seem almost like an elite club, it could be very natural to sense they are being condescending with their tone, even if such was not in fact the case.

If such a case arrises again, a few kind words might help bring them around a lot more (a la johnnd05, reps to you btw) than several people saying "what the hell" etc. I love you guys to death, but if I was this guy, I'd feel more confirmed about it being an elite club rather than less. I do think he was mistaken and out of line, but maybe we could try to make our responses kinder as well.

Feel free to attack me personally for this post all you want

Um...I can't believe you wrote this awful post

Um...What were you thinking

Um...Whatever!

Um...I can see how the uninitiated would believe that..

Um...Who died and left you boss.

Um...Where did they grow you?

Um...Are you using crib notes?

Um...WTF is wrong with you???

 

[Jason Pham]

Um, I deem we get back on topic or I start hitting the barn button!

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

Sorry Pham, I was just trying to help lighten stuff up. Back to work, guys.

 

[knute]

I'm just glad that Charlie Weis is making this decision and not a committee of IrishEnvy members.