2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


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Blaise

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It's Lex Luthor. Do you even nerd, bro?

DC sucks. #MakeMineMarvel

The Republican Party hates Donald Trump. They probably hate Ted Cruz even more. They also hate their base.

Yeah that's my bad...

I feel like the party does hate these people, but do you know what they like? Their jobs and power, and the crazy Trump supporters will lose their minds if they gave the nomination to someone who didn't run, or suspended their election.. they will go on a mission trying to oust every republican in the election to get back at them. It gives more credence to Trump's supporters that the system is broken and blah blah blah..

I truly believe the only way it can go down is one of the three still running
 

wizards8507

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I honestly don't understand what you are saying here. Not being a dick, I just don't get what you trying to say.
Boehner backs Paul Ryan for president - POLITICO

This is what I'm trying to say.

I truly believe the only way it can go down is one of the three still running
Republicans have competed just fine without the Trump supporters in the past. As Trump has said, many of them are people who have never even voted before or they're Democrats joining the Republican party. Think about it this way, the Republican Party is 20% of registered voters, and Trump supporters are (at most) 50% of that. In other words, Trump's supporters are only about 10% of registered voters. Combined, the #NeverTrump Republicans and independents who would automatically vote Democrat if Trump is the nominee, the GOP would be much better off pissing off the Trump people than pissing off the anti-Trump people.
 
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woolybug25

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I truly believe the only way it can go down is one of the three still running

I imagine these scenarios:

1) They go to the convention and some of Cruz's delegates revolt over to Trump. Giving him the nomination.
2) 40b is instituted after a stalemate and Cruz gets the nomination.
3) Trump gets pissed that 40b is instituted and goes third party. Leaving Cruz and Kasich to battle it out on the floor. Kasich gets deals done to get the candidacy.
 

BleedBlueGold

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They are not going to try to pull some crazy maneuver of getting rid of the convention rules in a double secret back room deal, simply to block a candidate. That's just unrealistic, my man. Let's be real here.

tumblr_nlh7ayVjju1tpar8to1_1280.jpg
 

BleedBlueGold

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The irony in my House of Cards reference is that Season 4 was basically scripted right in line with how this primary is playing out. For those who've yet to see it, I won't spoil it. But just know there are plenty of similarities and as usual, dirty politics. (Par for course. The Clintons have mastered this kind of debauchery. You can't help but watch the show and think, " Dammit, the Clintons are the Underwoods. The Underwoods are the Clintons."
 

GoIrish41

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It's a pipe dream, man. You're also spinning it. They would be doing it to vote for someone other than Trump. People would rage.

It's not going to happen.

Not saying it is or is not going to happen. But there are republicans publicly talking about it. There will be violence if they do this, but nothing in this election season surprises me anymore.
 

wizards8507

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Let's throw this out there. Assume Trump and Clinton are the nominees. They'd have the two worst unfavorability ratings of any candidates in the history of polling. Could a Kasich / Rubio third party ticket be viable? They'd have a chance to win Ohio for sure, possibly preventing either Clinton or Trump from getting to 270 electoral votes. POTUS would then go to the House of Representatives, where Kasich would be elected.
 

GoIrish41

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Let's throw this out there. Assume Trump and Clinton are the nominees. They'd have the two worst unfavorability ratings of any candidates in the history of polling. Could a Kasich / Rubio third party ticket be viable? They'd have a chance to win Ohio for sure, possibly preventing either Clinton or Trump from getting to 270 electoral votes. POTUS would then go to the House of Representatives, where Kasich would be elected.

You are really looking at every possible scenario, huh?
 

woolybug25

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Let's throw this out there. Assume Trump and Clinton are the nominees. They'd have the two worst unfavorability ratings of any candidates in the history of polling. Could a Kasich / Rubio third party ticket be viable? They'd have a chance to win Ohio for sure, possibly preventing either Clinton or Trump from getting to 270 electoral votes. POTUS would then go to the House of Representatives, where Kasich would be elected.

They would get my vote (which heh... that's something). I also think that they would have a really good shot at winning both Florida and Ohio.

It certainly would be another signal of the deal of the Republican party. Maybe that's what we need? A third party to rise to relevancy?
 

GoIrish41

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Wishful thinking, I guess?

I feel ya. My Bernie hopes are all but dashed after last night, so I'm looking to Hillary as the only rational choice left (given Trump is more than likely going to win the GOP nomination). I don't think Hillary is as awful as a lot of you guys, but she certainly wasn't on my short list of people I thought should be president. But if the choices are her and Trump (or Cruz for that matter), Hillary is going to get my reluctant vote. At least she's not whipping mouth breathers into a violent, racially fueled frenzy at her campaign events or insulting entire religions or nationalities. Even so, my enthusiasm level is diminished.

How do we end up with candidates who are among the most hated people in America as our only choices? It doesn't even make sense.
 

woolybug25

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I feel ya. My Bernie hopes are all but dashed after last night, so I'm looking to Hillary as the only rational choice left (given Trump is more than likely going to win the GOP nomination). I don't think Hillary is as awful as a lot of you guys, but she certainly wasn't on my short list of people I thought should be president. But if the choices are her and Trump (or Cruz for that matter), Hillary is going to get my reluctant vote. At least she's not whipping mouth breathers into a violent, racially fueled frenzy at her campaign events or insulting entire religions or nationalities. Even so, my enthusiasm level is diminished.

How do we end up with candidates who are among the most hated people in America as our only choices? It doesn't even make sense.

I think Hillary will be a bad President, but I don't think that she will cause the longterm, irreversible harm that Trump would do to our nation. I'll take a bad politician over a tyrant any day of the week.
 

GoIrish41

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I think Hillary will be a bad President, but I don't think that she will cause the longterm, irreversible harm that Trump would do to our nation. I'll take a bad politician over a tyrant any day of the week.

This is where I am at mostly, but I think she would be a mixed bag of good and bad. At least Bernie pushed her to the left some. Her greatest asset right now is that she will be the only person standing between Trump and the White House. I think too many folks fear what a Trump presidency would mean for this country.
 

wizards8507

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I think Hillary will be a bad President, but I don't think that she will cause the longterm, irreversible harm that Trump would do to our nation. I'll take a bad politician over a tyrant any day of the week.
Agreed. Of additional concern to me is what Trump will do to the Republican Party. I understand that my political views aren't represented by the GOP platform, but it's at least more of a home for candidates that share my views than the Democrat Party. Trump will destroy that and we'll have two parties that are openly hostile to individual liberty (even more than we already do).

This is where I am at mostly, but I think she would be a mixed bag of good and bad. Her greatest asset right now is that she will be the only person standing between Trump and the White House. I think too many folks fear what a Trump presidency would mean for this country.
I think that's the key difference between Trump's unfavorability and Clinton's. Clinton's is a dislike. Trump's is fear.
 

woolybug25

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Agreed. Of additional concern to me is what Trump will do to the Republican Party. I understand that my political views aren't represented by the GOP platform, but it's at least more of a home for candidates that share my views than the Democrat Party. Trump will destroy that and we'll have two parties that are openly hostile to individual liberty (even more than we already do).

I think the harm he would do to the party would, for all tense and purposes, end the party. He would turn the party into the party of racism, the party of bigotry, the party of hate. People would not be able to separate Trump from the Republican party. Which would fundamentally start to dissolve the fundamental principles. It would be a slow death.
 

GoIrish41

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I think the harm he would do to the party would, for all tense and purposes, end the party. He would turn the party into the party of racism, the party of bigotry, the party of hate. People would not be able to separate Trump from the Republican party. Which would fundamentally start to dissolve the fundamental principles. It would be a slow death.

I think him being the nominee already gets this train moving down the tracks. I doubt he will be president, but the damage to the GOP will be done when he gets to 1237 delegates or secures the nomination. Perhaps it is already too late for them to recover.
 
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kmoose

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I think the harm he would do to the party would, for all tense(intents) and purposes, end the party. He would turn the party into the party of racism, the party of bigotry, the party of hate. People would not be able to separate Trump from the Republican party. Which would fundamentally start to dissolve the fundamental principles. It would be a slow death.

dshans'd..............
 

Whiskeyjack

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The NYT's Ross Douthat just published an article titled "Goodbye Bushism":

Even in the last limping years of his deeply unpopular administration, George W. Bush was still popular with Republican voters. After Barack Obama took office, Bush’s image popped up in anti-Obama iconography, with a cheeky “miss me yet?” attached. And as his presidency receded, Bush’s favorable ratings floated upward, rising above President Obama’s and Hillary Clinton’s as the 2016 campaign got underway.

These numbers were no doubt present in Jeb Bush’s consciousness when he made his fateful and destructive decision to run for president. But they were also clearly part of Marco Rubio’s read on the Republican Party, which ultimately led him to last night’s campaign-ending defeat: Even more than George W. Bush’s own brother, Rubio tried to make himself an heir to Bushism, and to build a bridge between the last Republican administration and the one that he aspired to lead.

Rubio’s defeat, like most in politics, had many causes: a weak ground game, a media strategy that was overwhelmed by Donald Trump’s cable-TV dominance, a persona and positioning that made him a second choice all over the map but a winner hardly anywhere, a youthful mien in a “hard man for hard times” election, and of course that one dreadful New Hampshire debate.

But in purely ideological terms, what primary voters were rejecting when they rejected him was the political synthesis of George W. Bush.

In domestic politics, that synthesis had four pillars: a sincere social conservatism rooted in a personal narrative of faith; a center-hugging “compassionate conservatism” on issues related to poverty and education; the pursuit of comprehensive immigration reform as a means to win Latinos for the G.O.P.; and large across-the-board tax cuts to placate the party’s donors and supply-side wing.

In foreign policy, Bushism began with the promise of restraint but ultimately came to mean hawkishness shot through with Wilsonian idealism, a vision of a crusading America whose interests and values were perfectly aligned.

From his arrival in Washington, Rubio seemed intent on imitating this combination of ideas. He associated himself with neoconservative foreign policy proposals and personnel. He became the face of comprehensive immigration reform, take three. He wooed a rising generation of evangelical and Catholic activists. He filled out a domestic policy portfolio with “reform conservative” ideas on welfare reform, health care, higher education and family-friendly tax policy. And then to make sure nobody accused him of being some sort of redistributionist squish, he attached those ideas to a sweeping capital gains and corporate tax cut.

Politically it was by no means a crazy strategy. For all his blunders, George W. Bush is still the only Republican candidate for president to win the popular vote in the last 25 years, and the only figure to successfully unite and lead a fractious party. Parts of Bushism look more optimistic, inclusive and economically relevant than either the angrier Tea Party message that Rubio piggybacked on in his 2010 Senate campaign or the generic “Mr. Republican” messages that John McCain and Mitt Romney lost with in 2008 and 2012. And with the Middle East in flames, Russia increasingly aggressive and the Islamic State camped out in Iraq and Syria, you can see why many conservative elites imagined that Americans — and Republican primary voters, especially — might want a more hawkish, even Bushian successor to Barack Obama.

But alas for Rubio it turned out that Republicans didn’t want any of this.

They didn’t want comprehensive immigration reform, which shouldn’t have been surprising because they hadn’t wanted it when Bush was president, either; it was an idea that had hung around and hung around without ever finding a conservative constituency outside Washington.

They didn’t want an optimistic, next-generation version of social conservatism, preferring either Ted Cruz’s old-time religion or Donald Trump as the church’s heathen bodyguard in a post-Christian landscape.

They didn’t care about the size of Rubio’s tax cut, because all the candidates were promising a big tax cut, they were all equally implausible, and voters — even conservative voters — just aren’t as tax-obsessed as they were in the Reaganite glory days.

They did want, perhaps, a different domestic policy than the uncreative platform Romney had offered, one that promised less to the wealthy and more to the working class. But Rubio’s halfhearted reform conservatism was outbid and overwhelmed by Trump’s brassy promises to renegotiate trade deals, slap on tariffs, leave entitlements untouched and bring back the jobs of 1965.

And they did want a kind of hawkishness — but not a Wilsonian hawkishness, in service to an ambitious grand strategy to stabilize or remake the Middle East. No, they wanted a Jacksonian hawkishness, one that promised to rain destruction on our enemies without the mess of nation building.

These desires don’t add up to a new Republican synthesis, and the candidates who have catered to them more successfully haven’t devised one. Trump’s populist, illiberal Jacksonianism can’t unite the party the way Bush once did, and Cruz’s hard-edge social and economic conservatism probably can’t win the median voter the way Bushism did twice (well, once plus a close second).

But they do add up to the desire for a new synthesis, and an understanding that whatever the Republican Party needs now, it can’t just be what worked for Bush and Karl Rove until Iraq went sour and Wall Street melted down.

At times, Rubio’s biography, his youth and his eloquence seemed to make him the natural candidate for a party in search of What Comes Next. And in certain ways he was victimized by a conservative electorate that fears the future, that wants any “new” synthesis to simply recreate the glories of a vanished American past.

But he was also a victim of his own fateful look backward, his assumption that what worked for the last Republican president could be made to work again. It didn’t, it couldn’t, and it probably won’t be tried again: Whoever wins the nomination in 2016, George W. Bush has gone down to defeat.
 

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I disagree with you on two levels:

1) I don't think Loomis was disagreeing on 40b. I don't think he knew the rules or has any idea how the process works whatsoever.
2) Cruz has 8 states (ID, WY, TX, OK, KS, IA, AK & ME). So he is eligible for the first voting of the convention. If none of his delegates went over to Trump, then they would institute the next level of voting (ie horse trading), in which it could literally be anyone.

1) You're probably right. I was looking for the image in a Jackson Pollock.

2) You're right Cruz is over the threshold, I was going off the list someone else had just posted. Which was obviously incorrect. However to the bolded part I don't know where you're getting that. The rule reads.....

(b) Each candidate for nomination for President of the United States and Vice President of the United States shall
demonstrate the support of a majority of the delegates from each of eight (8) or more states, severally, prior to the presentation of
the name of that candidate for nomination. Notwithstanding any other provisions of these rules or any rule of the House of
Representatives, to demonstrate the support required of this paragraph a certificate evidencing the affirmative written support of
the required number of permanently seated delegates from each of the eight (8) or more states shall have been submitted to the
secretary of the convention not later than one (1) hour prior to the placing of the names of candidates for nomination pursuant to
this rule and the established order of business.

and then...

(e) If no candidate shall have received such majority, the chairman of the convention shall direct the roll of the states be
called again and shall repeat the calling of the roll until a candidate shall have received a majority of the votes entitled to be cast
in the convention.

Nowhere does it mention being able to add additional candidates. As I understand it for someone to get votes in the additional rounds they would have had to have had their name presented prior to the first vote.

I agree with you that getting rid of 40b is a pipedream. If they get rid of it right now they are basically saying that they want to block Trump, what do you think that will do to his support? His supporters will go into overdrive if Trump starts talking about how the dirty Washington elites are trying to steal the election from him, and honestly he wouldn't be wrong. They also can't wait until the convention and try to slip a new rule in because even if they are successful they are basically guaranteeing that Trump runs third party.

I have a serious question for our Ohio members.

Is John Kasich actually fucking insane or just insanely arrogant? He's mathematically eliminated yet is still campaigning... for what purpose? He can win 100% of every single remaining vote and he still won't be the nominee. He's wasting voters' time and money (and why are people still giving him money?). He's like a basketball team that gets eliminated in the Sweet 16 but then books flights and hotel rooms in Houston for the Final 4 anyways. He's quite literally delusional.

Kasich needs to get to the 8 state cutoff. If im correct and they won't be getting rid of rule 40b then he needs to keep going to give himself a shot at a contested convention. If the establishment wants a Kasich/Rubio ticket he needs to find 7 more states.
 

wizards8507

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Kasich needs to get to the 8 state cutoff. If im correct and they won't be getting rid of rule 40b then he needs to keep going to give himself a shot at a contested convention. If the establishment wants a Kasich/Rubio ticket he needs to find 7 more states.
The establishment doesn't want a Kasich / Rubio ticket and they've never indicated as such. John Boehner just endorsed Paul Ryan for Chrissake.
 

GATTACA!

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The establishment doesn't want a Kasich / Rubio ticket and they've never indicated as such. John Boehner just endorsed Paul Ryan for Chrissake.

It's such a clusterfuck. They should want Kasich, he beats Hillary by 17 points.
 

wizards8507

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It's such a clusterfuck. They should want Kasich, he beats Hillary by 17 points.
Maybe you don't see it because you're in Ohio, but Kasich never shutting the fuck up about Ohio is absolutely infuriating and turns me off to him big time.
 

wizards8507

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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/0zbZcu19aqI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This dude is a GOP rules official.

"The media has created a perception that the voters will decide the nomination, and that's the conflict here... Political parties choose their nominee, not the general public."
 

woolybug25

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1) You're probably right. I was looking for the image in a Jackson Pollock.

2) You're right Cruz is over the threshold, I was going off the list someone else had just posted. Which was obviously incorrect. However to the bolded part I don't know where you're getting that. The rule reads.....



and then...



Nowhere does it mention being able to add additional candidates. As I understand it for someone to get votes in the additional rounds they would have had to have had their name presented prior to the first vote.

I agree with you that getting rid of 40b is a pipedream. If they get rid of it right now they are basically saying that they want to block Trump, what do you think that will do to his support? His supporters will go into overdrive if Trump starts talking about how the dirty Washington elites are trying to steal the election from him, and honestly he wouldn't be wrong. They also can't wait until the convention and try to slip a new rule in because even if they are successful they are basically guaranteeing that Trump runs third party.



Kasich needs to get to the 8 state cutoff. If im correct and they won't be getting rid of rule 40b then he needs to keep going to give himself a shot at a contested convention. If the establishment wants a Kasich/Rubio ticket he needs to find 7 more states.

For the initial floor vote, only candidates with 8 states will be presented. This in hopes that certain states will switch their allegiance to another candidate, pushing them over the threshold.

40b is the second stage of voting. At which point, it's a clusterfuq horsetrade scenario where people are brought to the table, often as a package deal (Prez, VP, etc) and ALL states repledge their delegates. Rush Limbaugh is the dude that originally floated this as not being possible, but he either failed to realize (doubtful) or simply misrepresented the rule (likely) that original delegate count isn't necessarily in place still. At that point, all anyone else would need to do would be to get a majority of delegates in the necessary number of states to pledge their support prior to a roll call vote, at which point they’d be eligible for that round of voting. As illustrated here.

As currently written, Rule 40 doesn’t require a candidate to have won eight states during the primary season—or even to have competed in them—it only requires that a majority of delegates from those states declare their support in writing one hour before the roll call vote in question. Again, the rulebook is written in such a way that it’s open to interpretation; it’ll be the rules committee and the delegates that decide how they want to do the interpreting. If enough Republicans want a white knight to slay Trump, they’ll find a way to get him to the floor.
 
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wizards8507

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For the initial floor vote, only candidates with 8 states will be presented. This in hopes that certain states will switch their allegiance to another candidate, pushing them over the threshold.
That doesn't make any sense. Marco Rubio's candidates are legally bound to Marco Rubio. What do they do when Rubio isn't on the ballot?
 

wizards8507

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2) Cruz has 8 states (ID, WY, TX, OK, KS, IA, AK & ME). So he is eligible for the first voting of the convention. If none of his delegates went over to Trump, then they would institute the next level of voting (ie horse trading), in which it could literally be anyone.

2) You're right Cruz is over the threshold, I was going off the list someone else had just posted.
You're both wrong. It's not enough to WIN states, you need the MAJORITY of delegates. It used to be a plurality of five states, but now it's a majority of eight states. For example, Cruz won Oklahoma but he only got 15 of the 43 available delegates.
 
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