2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


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GoIrish41

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For the record I'm not a GOP. But the reason why Independents are polling towards trump is because Obama has openly lied to the American public. The list of lies goes on and on - Iran Deal, Obamacare, Gitmo, etc etc etc.

The theory that Hillary is going to run away with the election neglects how much anger Americans have right now.

The vote is against Obama as much as anything. Having a candidate like Hillary that wants to continue making progress doesn't understand the voting class.

Having anger and directing it toward actually getting things accomplished are two different things. Is it really possible that a guy can go through a whole election just saying, "I'm going to do great things for _____," and "the ______ are going to love what I do for them?" Seriously, I'm beginning to wonder if that's all he's ever going to say. "Build a wall, blah, blah, blah," "this country is a mess, blah, blah, blah." Anybody can exploit angry people into being more angry by stirring the pot. What is he going to do to fix the problems that are making people angry? He's provided no answers to anything -- nothing that reasonable people think can actually be accomplished. It's not enough to just say, "trust me, people are going to love what I do." I am confident that the country will come to its senses, despite the mouth breather faction of the Republican Party, and Trump will not get elected.
 

kmoose

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Having anger and directing it toward actually getting things accomplished are two different things. Is it really possible that a guy can go through a whole election just saying, "I'm going to do great things for _____," and "the ______ are going to love what I do for them?" Seriously, I'm beginning to wonder if that's all he's ever going to say. "Build a wall, blah, blah, blah," "this country is a mess, blah, blah, blah." Anybody can exploit angry people into being more angry by stirring the pot. What is he going to do to fix the problems that are making people angry? He's provided no answers to anything -- nothing that reasonable people think can actually be accomplished. It's not enough to just say, "trust me, people are going to love what I do." I am confident that the country will come to its senses, despite the mouth breather faction of the Republican Party, and Trump will not get elected.

To be fair............ not that I plan on voting for him, or need to defend him............ that's how successful businessmen usually operate; you don't know what they are planning until they put those plans into motion. In his world, you tell people your plans and they "steal" them for themselves, assing you out in the process.
 

GoIrish41

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To be fair............ not that I plan on voting for him, or need to defend him............ that's how successful businessmen usually operate; you don't know what they are planning until they put those plans into motion. In his world, you tell people your plans and they "steal" them for themselves, assing you out in the process.

Not knowing what is plans are scares the crap out of me. This is a presidential election. Sharing plans is kinda what candidates are supposed to do. And we are supposed to compare their plans and pick the candidate we like best. "It's a secret" is unacceptable.
 
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FightingIrishLover7

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For the record I'm not a GOP. But the reason why Independents are polling towards trump is because Obama has openly lied to the American public. The list of lies goes on and on - Iran Deal, Obamacare, Gitmo, etc etc etc.

The theory that Hillary is going to run away with the election neglects how much anger Americans have right now.

The vote is against Obama as much as anything. Having a candidate like Hillary that wants to continue making progress doesn't understand the voting class.
I'm no fan of Obama, but don't sit here and tell me he's the first president to have ever lied...

Good 'ole George W. has had more than his fair share of "accidental" messages.

I'm pretty sure we all know Slick Willy has a house (wife especially) of lies that he lives in.

Also, Reaganomics was deliberately deceitful with regards to their public interest. And you can't convince me otherwise. That was proposed by the rich in a way that it would help them while appearing to care about those at the other end of the spectrum.

So, hate Obama all you want, but don't tell me he's lied more (or less) than presidents in recent past.
 

kmoose

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Not knowing what is plans are scares the crap out of me. This is a presidential election. Sharing plans is kinda what candidates are supposed to do. And we are supposed to compare their plans and pick the candidate we like best. "It's a secret" is unacceptable.

Then don't vote for him. Instead, vote for the shrew who promised Universal Health Care and gays in the military when she and her husband ran for the office.

How did those plans work out?

Remember Obama's plans to close Guantanamo Bay by Executive Order? That was going to be one of the first things he did when elected. Which is better? Knowing plans, and those plans never coming true? Or not knowing specific plans until after the election?
 

GoIrish41

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Then don't vote for him. Instead, vote for the shrew who promised Universal Health Care and gays in the military when she and her husband ran for the office.

How did those plans work out?

Remember Obama's plans to close Guantanamo Bay by Executive Order? That was going to be one of the first things he did when elected. Which is better? Knowing plans, and those plans never coming true? Or not knowing specific plans until after the election?

Um, understanding a candidate's intentions is pretty important. Not being able to deliver because of partisan opposition is a little different than a grab bag presidency.
 

kmoose

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Um, understanding a candidate's intentions is pretty important. Not being able to deliver because of partisan opposition is a little different than a grab bag presidency.

Don't give me any "partisan politics" excuses. One of Obama's big promises in his first campaign was that HE was the guy who could reach across the aisle and bring both sides together. That's what Obama promised; it wasn't other people hanging that mantle around his neck. But that's another good example of failed plans...
 

GoIrish41

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Don't give me any "partisan politics" excuses. One of Obama's big promises in his first campaign was that HE was the guy who could reach across the aisle and bring both sides together. That's what Obama promised; it wasn't other people hanging that mantle around his neck. But that's another good example of failed plans...

So, if he could have closed GITMO, delivered immigration reform, passed sensible gun legislation, and delivered universal health care, you are suggesting he would not have done that? He tried to do those things and ran into opposition. Did he miscalculate how much opposition he would see and/ or his own skill at swaying people to his point of view? Sure, and he admitted as much in his last state of the Union. But, he isn't a dictator. Although accepting that Trump will be full of surprises suggests that you would be ok with one.
 

kmoose

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So, if he could have closed GITMO, delivered immigration reform, passed sensible gun legislation, and delivered universal health care, you are suggesting he would not have done that? He tried to do those things and ran into opposition. Did he miscalculate how much opposition he would see and/ or his own skill at swaying people to his point of view? Sure, and he admitted as much in his last state of the Union. But, he isn't a dictator. Although accepting that Trump will be full of surprises suggests that you would be ok with one.

I've said, multiple times, that I don't support Trump. You are now trolling (as defined by the mods) and I am not going to follow you down that road. d
 

drayer54

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So, if he could have closed GITMO, delivered immigration reform, passed sensible gun legislation, and delivered universal health care, you are suggesting he would not have done that? He tried to do those things and ran into opposition. Did he miscalculate how much opposition he would see and/ or his own skill at swaying people to his point of view? Sure, and he admitted as much in his last state of the Union. But, he isn't a dictator. Although accepting that Trump will be full of surprises suggests that you would be ok with one.

No president can have their wish list, unless of course they control congress too. Obama blew his political capital on healthcare. The honeymoon was over after Obamacare. He also hasn't exactly been the champion of reaching across the aisle.

"Sensible" gun control is something he has attempted through executive order, although it was a laughable waste of ink that demonstrated his disconnect with reality. Fortunately, the congress has resisted his routine call for freedom restrictions.

Trump is no different from Romney or any other businessman who campaigns on experience and leadership vice solid plans. Plus, these issues require complex plans that only open candidates up to more criticism.
 

GoIrish41

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I've said, multiple times, that I don't support Trump. You are now trolling (as defined by the mods) and I am not going to follow you down that road. d

Trolling??? Seriously? I didn't say you were for Trump. What you did do is defend his actions about giving no clue as to what his plans are. You went on a rant about how Obama and the Clintons in a rather confusion manner by conflating political promises not being kept and whether a candidate who is running for president of the United States ought to be obliged to explain what his intentions are for the country. And I'm trolling? Got it.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Here's Ben Domenech in The Daily Beast arguing that evangelicals are supporting Trump because they've lost the culture war and feel like they need a secular bully to protect them.

Here's John Nichols in The Nation on why Trump's populism is dangerous.

Here's Dan Drezner in The Washington Post speculating that the GOP may have failed to stop Trump when it was still possible because political scientists kept insisting he'd flame out on his own sooner than later.

And here's The Week's Michael Brendan Dougherty with an article titled, "What do conservatives stand to lose with a Trump nomination? Nearly everything.":

There is an odd hush that is falling over the high place in America's conservative movement after the South Carolina primary.

The nomination fight is not quite over, but Donald Trump is positioned for a near-sweep of the upcoming contests. His two most viable challengers scored roughly evenly in the last primary. Gaming it out, it is easy to see how Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio continue to fire on each other, while Trump continues to win a strong plurality. The person who becomes "the anti-Trump" may emerge too late and too weakened to stop Trump in his hostile takeover bid of the Republican Party.

A Trump nomination, at first blush, looks like a disaster for the organs of the conservative movement, whether think tanks or magazines. The importance of these institutions in the national firmament is premised on the idea that the Republican nominee for president must come up to snuff as a "true conservative," or that reading them gives you some insight into the thinking and operation of the next Republican administration. A Trump win, at least temporarily, threatens the conservative movement because it threatens to expose how inessential its ideas are to holding together the party.

The great drama of the 2012 election was whether Mitt Romney could convince conservatives he was truly on their side. The great drama of 2016 is whether Trump needs any conservatives on his side at all. Perhaps he doesn't.

Trump, as a general election candidate, may try to reach out to some Republicans and reunite the coalition he shattered. Already there are reports that he sounds out Rudy Giuliani, Art Laffer, and Bill Bennett. Those men roughly represent the three "legs" of the stool that is the conservative movement: an assertive foreign policy, free-market economics, and social conservatism. He will reach out to others as well.

Will policy minds on the right be willing to work with him, though? Each policy wonk, or professional political class worker that a Trump campaign approaches faces a difficult choice: Do you throw in with Trump in the hopes of retaining some conservative influence over the Republican nominee? Or do you risk looking like someone who abandoned the GOP in an hour when it needed to unite to defeat Hillary Clinton? If you join Team Trump and he fails miserably, will your colleagues in the movement view you with suspicion?

If Trump captures the nomination, it will also be a disaster for the relationship of pro-lifers with the Republican Party. Unless Trump picks someone with the most rock-solid pro-life credentials as his running mate, it is very likely that a solid chunk of important pro-life activists will seek out a viable third party candidate, or throw their support behind the nominee of a tiny pro-life party, like the Constitution Party. In fact, there is good reason to believe that a Trump nomination may bring out a retired Republican congressman to run on the Constitution Party's ticket. Trump may say he is against abortion, but his conversion on the issue is far less convincing than those of previous nominees like Mitt Romney or George H.W. Bush.

The Republican Party has never exactly fought with everything it had to confirm enough originalists to overturn Roe V. Wade and thereby return lawmaking on abortion to the states. But in order to keep its coalition from really cracking up, it has to at least be a plausible vehicle for the aspirations of these voters. With Trump at the top, it won't be.

For Republican elites who may be pro-choice and for grassroots activists who believe they cannot support a party that wobbles on this issue, a Trump nomination shatters a mutual illusion: that the pro-life grassroots and the Republican elite need each other. In fact, absent major scrambling by a third party candidate, Trump's nomination all but guarantees that conservatives will be reduced to a tiny rump on a consolidated, progressive Supreme Court.

Even though I have wanted to see the GOP address the voters that Trump is courting with more substantial policies, I have serious doubts about whether the Republican coalition can so easily be re-assembled under Trump or after him. The one truly great thing about American political parties is that they are so big that their members must accommodate each other and moderate their demands and appetites. For too long, an elite financial wing of the Republican Party got immoderate about its demands, and the party caved to them. Trump is the understandable immoderate counter-reaction. Who or what can possibly reconcile these factions to one another?
 
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Buster Bluth

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Don't give me any "partisan politics" excuses.

The historic numbers of filibusters and unfilled judge spots didn't come out of nowhere.

It is too often political suicide to work with the other side. That is an issue that is biggest than the Presidency and speaks to a growing cultural divide that is, in my opinion, encouraged by the media.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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I don't think he'd run as an independent. Trump is a lot of things, but he's not an idiot and he's certainly not one to waste his own time or money. He would know that an independent would have no legitimate shot at winning the presidency.

Potential chaos scenario: Trump and Bernie win the nominations. Bloomberg runs third party. The Libertarian Party nominates Rand Paul or some other candidate with more legitimacy than a libertarian candidate would typically have. The anti-Trump wing of the Republican Party goes to the libertarian candidate and the anti-Bernie wing of the Democrat Party goes to Bloomberg. Madness ensues.

100%. If this happens I'm building a bunker and going off grid.
 

kmoose

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Trolling??? Seriously? I didn't say you were for Trump. What you did do is defend his actions about giving no clue as to what his plans are. You went on a rant about how Obama and the Clintons in a rather confusion manner by conflating political promises not being kept and whether a candidate who is running for president of the United States ought to be obliged to explain what his intentions are for the country. And I'm trolling? Got it.

The mods clearly stated that continuing to accuse someone of favoring a candidate or a party, after they have said that they don't, is trolling. And they did it right here in this thread. I did not conflate the two. You said that candidates should have to outline their plans. I pointed out a few examples of when candidates outlined big plans, and then failed to follow through on those. The obvious question then was would you rather have someone announce plans and then fail to follow through on them, or have someone not announce their plans? Because the examples I gave were of liberal folks, you tried to deflect the blame to "obstructionism" by the other party. I simply said that that's no excuse. Obama promised to end the rancor between the parties, and the Clintons had Democratic majority in BOTH houses of Congress for the first two years of their Presidency, yet failed to pass any of their big plans. I'm not sure if you have considered that maybe not all of the candidates announce specific plans because they know that they don't have all of the information yet. Candidates don't have access to the same intel as the sitting President. So smart people will wait until they have a clearer view of the situation before formulating concrete plans.
 
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Buster Bluth

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100%. If this happens I'm building a bunker and going off grid.
You would have to go back more than a century to find the last President who didn't see the economy reach a record size/height during his time in office.

Just saying, regardless of who is President, history says the greatest economic power in the history of the world will continue to be the greatest economic power in the history of the world... no need to retreat into a bunker haha
 

kmoose

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The historic numbers of filibusters and unfilled judge spots didn't come out of nowhere.

It is too often political suicide to work with the other side. That is an issue that is biggest than the Presidency and speaks to a growing cultural divide that is, in my opinion, encouraged by the media.

Obama campaigned on bringing the two parties together. No excuses. He's the one who said he WOULD do it. He touted his work as a community organizer in Chicago, working with people of various races, creeds, and religions, as proof that he would break through the Washington gridlock.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Um, understanding a candidate's intentions is pretty important. Not being able to deliver because of partisan opposition is a little different than a grab bag presidency.

That's laughable. Obama was voted in to turn the economy around coming off the 2008 recession. He used the majority in Congress to pass a stimulus (which set us back) and Obamacare which gets worse every day. There was zero Republican opposition in his first two years, after which point the voters said "enough is enough" and we saw the biggest swing in Congress since the 1950's.

Let's not forget the millions who voted for "hope and change" and had NO CLUE what Obama would do once he got into office.
 

GoIrish41

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No president can have their wish list, unless of course they control congress too. Obama blew his political capital on healthcare. The honeymoon was over after Obamacare. He also hasn't exactly been the champion of reaching across the aisle.

"Sensible" gun control is something he has attempted through executive order, although it was a laughable waste of ink that demonstrated his disconnect with reality. Fortunately, the congress has resisted his routine call for freedom restrictions.

Trump is no different from Romney or any other businessman who campaigns on experience and leadership vice solid plans. Plus, these issues require complex plans that only open candidates up to more criticism.

Yes, after congressional leadership did not allow the bill to come to a vote, when 90% of the country was in favor of it. Why not call it what it is? Obstructionism! You can't be for the party that does that AND complain that he's dishonorable because he didn't get it done. I mean, I just don't get that. It seems unreasonable to me. And please believe me, I am not trying to be a dick, I seriously don't understand how those two things can coexist.

To your final point, Romney was a former governor. He wasn't running for president for kicks. He provided plans -- they were bad plans that people didn't want -- but they were plans. Trump has given nothing in the way plans, and he has demonstrated no leadership qualities. He got in a tweet battle with the pope, insulted Mexicans, alienated Muslims, and done nothing more on the trail than pick fights with the other candidates. All this at the expense of actually having to present any plans.
 
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Cackalacky

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The mods clearly stated that continuing to accuse someone of favoring a candidate or a party, after they have said that they don't, is trolling. And they did it right here in this thread. I did not conflate the two. You said that candidates should have to outline their plans. I pointed out a few examples of when candidates outlined big plans, and then failed to follow through on those. The obvious question then was would you rather have someone announce plans and then fail to follow through on them, or have someone not announce their plans? Because the examples I gave were of liberal folks, you tried to deflect the blame to "obstructionism" by the other party. I simply said that that's no excuse. Obama promised to end the rancor between the parties, and the Clintons had Democratic majority in BOTH houses of Congress for the first two years of their Presidency, yet failed to pass any of their big plans. I'm not sure if you have considered that maybe not all of the candidates announce specific plans because they know that they don't have all of the information yet. Candidates don't have access to the same intel as the sitting President. So smart people will wait until they have a clearer view of the situation before formulating concrete plans.
I am going to regret this but it needs to be said.... To be clear we said that purposefully misrepresenting one's statements is trolling. In that instance you were doing that to me about a certain candidate in which I explicitly stated my stance. I posted multiple posts clearly stating the exact opposite of what you were claiming. I can pull those quotes but I don't think it's necessary.

You don't support Trump but are defending him in your posts recently. Let's move on with this understanding.
 

drayer54

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Yes, after congressional leadership did not allow the bill to come to a vote, when 90% of the country was in favor of it. Why not call it what it is? Obstructionism! You can't be for the party that does that AND complain that he's dishonorable because he didn't get it done. I mean, I just don't get that. It seems unreasonable to me. And please believe me, I am not trying to be a dick, I seriously don't understand how those two things can coexist.

To your final point, Romney was a former governor. He wasn't running for president for kicks. He provided plans -- they were bad plans that people didn't want -- but they were plans. Trump has given nothing in the way plans, and he has demonstrated no leadership qualities. He got in a tweet battle with the pope, insulted Mexicans, alienated Muslims, and done nothing more on the trail than pick fights with the other candidates. All this at the expense of actually having to present any plans.
That 90% bs is in response to a generic background check question. Protecting the Bill of Rights is not obstructionism. I'm not saying BHO is dishonorable, I'm saying he's a failure. Especially in the second term. He should have resigned years ago when he quit trying to accomplish anything. The democrats didn't do much different in the last few years of 43.

Romney's entire campaign centered around his ability to lead. He lost because he never offered any contrast to Obama and would always just give the same pathetic "I'm a leader" crap. The only difference he could paint was that he was a leader and the CFO and then when he had the chance, it would be good. He sucked at offering plans and details. Leadership and business experience was the constant theme of his crap campaign. It didn't help that he wasn't built for the American Idol contest at all.
 

kmoose

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I am going to regret this but it needs to be said.... To be clear we said that purposefully misrepresenting one's statements is trolling. In that instance you were doing that to me about a certain candidate in which I explicitly stated my stance. I posted multiple posts clearly stating the exact opposite of what you were claiming. I can pull those quotes but I don't think it's necessary.

You don't support Trump but are defending him in your posts recently. Let's move on with this understanding.

Actually, the understanding should be that I am NOT defending Trump. I am simply trying to point out what I see as a breakdown of logic(Republicans/conservatives are to blame for the failures of people who said that they would bring both sides together) or a misinterpretation of events(the lack of a detailed plan means that there isn't one, and the candidate must therefore be flying by the seat of their pants). Because I have to offer an alternate (possible)explanation of what the events mean, people take it as me defending someone.
 
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Cackalacky

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Actually, the understanding should be that I am NOT defending Trump. I am simply trying to point out what I see as a breakdown of logic(Republicans/conservatives are to blame for the failures of people who said that they would bring both sides together) or a misinterpretation of events(the lack of a detailed plan means that there isn't one, and the candidate must therefore be flying by the seat of their pants). Because I have to offer an alternate (possible)explanation of what the events mean, people take it as me defending someone.

Agree.
 

kmoose

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I have a serious question about Obamacare.............

If Obamacare was designed to bring good quality healthcare to ALL classes of people, then why is defunding Planned Parenthood going to leave so many poor women without health care?

I guess the real question is...........

What does Planned Parenthood provide that people cannot get through Obamacare? Or is it that the claim that poor women will go without much needed health care if Planned Parenthood loses funding is just false?
 

Black Irish

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I don't think this is true to any large degree. There might be a moderate Dem here or there who is giving Trump a look, but virtually every Democrat I know would rather stick a fork in their eye than vote for Donald Trump. Most independents are leaning toward the Dems, as well, or at least not admitting that they secretly support Trump (I'd be embarrassed, too).

If he hasn't reached his ceiling, what does that say about what the Republican Party has become? I've been arguing with posters on this site for years about how the party has become less inclusive, more mean spirited, bigoted, etc. -- and taking more than a little flack for making those arguments. When Trump hits the 50% GOP support mark, there is no defense for those arguments anymore. That party is in a sad, sad state of affairs if they cannot muster a candidate who can beat Donald Trump.

I'd say the leftward lurch of the Democratic Party is equally notable. The party's two front-runners are an avowed Socialist and an establishment candidate that has voiced consistent support for virtually every progressive policy du jour for the past 2 decades (abortion, strict gun control, government controlled health care). Liberals knock the GOP for its lack of moderate candidates, but where are the moderates on the Democrat side? Or has the national party's identity gotten so liberal that Hillary is now what the average Democrat thinks is centrist?
 
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Cackalacky

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I'd say the leftward lurch of the Democratic Party is equally notable. The party's two front-runners are an avowed Socialist and an establishment candidate that has voiced consistent support for virtually every progressive policy du jour for the past 2 decades (abortion, strict gun control, government controlled health care). Liberals knock the GOP for its lack of moderate candidates, but where are the moderates on the Democrat side? Or has the national party's identity gotten so liberal that Hillary is now what the average Democrat thinks is centrist?

IMO it's not even about moderates vs extremists anymore. It's about populism vs status quo. Independents are not necessarily moderate just as the populists are not necessarily extremists. The status quo tells you HRC is the most electable Democrat but recent Quinipac polls show that she loses to all republicans but trump and sanders beats all republican candidates by more than the margin or error. They also say. HRC has the best tangibles but she has a twenty point negative variance in her favorabilities. Sanders is the only candidate in either side who polls in positive favoribility numbers and is also genuinely thought to be the most honest and most trustworthy. Cruz and HRC are at the bottom of the pack there too.


Again I don't think this prmary season ends up being about moderates vs extremists but populism vs the status quo. The DNC and RNC stands to lose a lot if an antiestablishment candidate wins the primaries. I mean the DNC is trying its damnedest to sabatage Sanders and the RNC is shitting its pants over Trump.
 
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Buster Bluth

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Obama campaigned on bringing the two parties together. No excuses. He's the one who said he WOULD do it.

Do you need a list of campaign goals and promises that never got accomplished for one reason or another? To be so binary on this matter is just weird.
 
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Buster Bluth

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That's laughable. Obama was voted in to turn the economy around coming off the 2008 recession. He used the majority in Congress to pass a stimulus (which set us back) and Obamacare which gets worse every day. There was zero Republican opposition in his first two years, after which point the voters said "enough is enough" and we saw the biggest swing in Congress since the 1950's.

Holy hell. We just went over this recently, Obama did not have anything close to resembling "zero Republican opposition" for two years. I mean that is what is laughable here. Good grief.

The stimulus didn't "set us back," or whatever the hell that could mean. Yeah yeah, here's where you bring out the graph where the White House says X% unemployment if they pass it and it exceeded it. It is illogical to say that the stimulus caused that, and that's why the consensus of economists is that the stimulus plugged some holes in state budgets in a recession that was even worse than anticipated.

Obamacare gets worse every day? Okay, whatever that means. Last I checked people who get sick don't get kicked off their health insurance and the rate of cost increases has actually slowed down (though not all that attributable to Obamacare). In what way are things worse than 2009 that are directly caused by Obamacare?


Let's not forget the millions who voted for "hope and change" and had NO CLUE what Obama would do once he got into office.

And he proceeded to turn the country into a dystopian Marxist state just like conservatives promised...
 
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FightingIrishLover7

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I just want a government ran by individuals, not parties. (groups of individuals, not talking monarchy/dictatorship).

The politics as sports shit is absurd. I want free thinking individuals that aren't hogtied.
 
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