The alleged allegations

[johnnd05]

So can someone who's been following things more closely please explain to me WTF is going on with this whole Ron Zook/shady recruiting practices situation? All I've got is that the (New York? Chicago Sun?) Times ran an article on NSD about how no one could understand how Zook was doing so well in recruiting, and there was a quote in it from John-El to the effect that "where there's smoke, there's fire". Then Ronny gets all pissed (which is perhaps understandable) and says that these allegations were planted by a rival school that got the Times to run the story on NSD in an attempt to damage the Illini recruiting class (which seems ludicrous -- wouldn't you at least run it the day BEFORE if you wanted to do maximum damage?). All of a sudden everyone in the media seems to know, though Zook and everyone else at Illinois refuse to be quoted as saying, that it was Notre Dame that planted the allegations and got the story to run. Plus Illinois says they've hired a lawyer to investigate the source of some internet rumors (which were presumably distinct from the push to write the article) that they'd given cars to Juice Williams and Aurellious Benn.

Whew.

So what I'm trying to understand is: WHY is Illinois convinced that the article, and the internet rumors, were cooked up by another program in an attempt to damage their recruiting, as opposed to by a reporter trying (and succeeding, mind you!) to get some readership, and some crazy rumor-mongering fans (this is what we do, of course), respectively? And secondly, given that Smith IS quoted in the article, and no ND coaches are quoted at all, WHY is Illinois (or perhaps just the media) convinced that the source of said slander was Notre Dame as opposed to someone else?

I eagerly await some explanation.

 

[Vince Young]

The reason why Notre Dame is the focus is two-fold:

1.) Notre Dame lost 2 high-profile recruiting battles with Ron Zook.

2.) Sources at Illinois have quietly stated that as far as they can tell, the school spreading the rumors about Illinois being dirty is not a Big Ten member.

So, it's pretty easy from there to put 2 and 2 together and think, "Gee, maybe it's Notre Dame."

HOWEVER... that's assuming the fine folks at Illinois are telling the truth. And historically, the athletic department at Illinois has not been known for being clean. But amazingly, everyone is perfectly willing to ignore Illinois's shady past and put 100% credence behind THEIR hushed whisperings.

But I'm just scratching the surface. On Monday, the cracker-jack staff over at The Blue-Gray Sky put together this excellent in-depth review of everything that's happened thus far. Go read it. It answered a lot of my questions, and will probably answer some of yours as well.

 

[weisbankaccount]

heres my take on it.

Its Big 10 sour grapes but since the Big 10 has to deal with eachother, divert it and call it Notre dame because all Big 10 fans hate Notre dame anyway.

NOTHING has come out of South Bend to any effect complaining about IL. The only thing ND was pissed about was the 2 late defections, neither of who ended up at IL.

ND will not say anything about IL because ND knows they pushed for Martez Wilson as late as the night before signing day and IL wont name ND because they did the same with Bob Hughes.

Weis and ND know Zook is a savy recruiter and hired Corwin Brown to patrol the Chicago turf versus Zook in the future - a healthy rivalry of recruiting.

The only people accusing IL are message board types - like from here who call Zook a snake oil salesman and accuse him blindly of cheating with 0 proof.

You wanna call recruiting a greasy business - it is, its the worst. Everyone is guilty of tampering with committed recruits (verbal) but verbal is not binding so everything is fair. Matter of fact, ironically IL got jilted in recruiting about as bad as anyone has ever seen with the Eric Gordon basketball situation. And ND got jilted in football worse than anyone, so youd think theyd sympathize with eachother in that respect.

 

[Satans Little Helper]

heres my take on it.

Its Big 10 sour grapes but since the Big 10 has to deal with eachother, divert it and call it Notre dame because all Big 10 fans hate Notre dame anyway.

NOTHING has come out of South Bend to any effect complaining about IL. The only thing ND was pissed about was the 2 late defections, neither of who ended up at IL.

ND will not say anything about IL because ND knows they pushed for Martez Wilson as late as the night before signing day and IL wont name ND because they did the same with Bob Hughes.

Weis and ND know Zook is a savy recruiter and hired Corwin Brown to patrol the Chicago turf versus Zook in the future - a healthy rivalry of recruiting.

The only people accusing IL are message board types - like from here who call Zook a snake oil salesman and accuse him blindly of cheating with 0 proof.

You wanna call recruiting a greasy business - it is, its the worst. Everyone is guilty of tampering with committed recruits (verbal) but verbal is not binding so everything is fair. Matter of fact, ironically IL got jilted in recruiting about as bad as anyone has ever seen with the Eric Gordon basketball situation. And ND got jilted in football worse than anyone, so youd think theyd sympathize with eachother in that respect.

bank that makes entirely too much sense. IE is clearly not affecting you in the way the gustappo thought it might.

 

[johnnd05]

The reason why Notre Dame is the focus is two-fold:

1.) Notre Dame lost 2 high-profile recruiting battles with Ron Zook.

2.) Sources at Illinois have quietly stated that as far as they can tell, the school spreading the rumors about Illinois being dirty is not a Big Ten member.

So, it's pretty easy from there to put 2 and 2 together and think, "Gee, maybe it's Notre Dame."

Thanks, this is helpful. But it still doesn't quite add up to me. The only real RUMORS I've seen have been posted on internet message boards, and I can't believe that a school (as opposed to its lunatic fans) would be behind those. And the idea that a paper would run an article at the behest of a school also strikes me as strange.

 

[Vince Young]

The only people accusing IL are message board types - like from here who call Zook a snake oil salesman and accuse him blindly of cheating with 0 proof.

Proof? BAH! Proof ain't no fun. Give me wild message board speculation any day. That's entertainment!

But seriously... dude's won 4 games in TWO YEARS... and he ropes in a recruiting class that's THIS good?!?

Sorry, this means one of only 2 possibilites.

1.) Zook is an absolute recruiting GOD, in which case sign me up for atheism.

... or ...

2.) Something's rotten in the state of Illinois.

Guess where my money's going?

 

[irishnd31]

Proof? BAH!

Guess where my money's going?

Booze and hookers??

 

[Vince Young]

Thanks, this is helpful. But it still doesn't quite add up to me. The only real RUMORS I've seen have been posted on internet message boards, and I can't believe that a school (as opposed to its lunatic fans) would be behind those. And the idea that a paper would run an article at the behest of a school also strikes me as strange.

Both are strange, yes.

But sometimes the world is very strange indeed. And neither is impossible.

It could very well turn out that EVERYTHING is true: that Notre Dame is the source of the rumors, AND that those rumors are correct and Illinois is dirty.

 

[Vince Young]

Booze and hookers??

No, silly.

Let me re-phrase: guess which one I'd bet my money on.

(And if you come back again with "Booze and hookers??", I'll smack ya good. )

 

[irishnd31]

No, silly.

Let me re-phrase: guess which one I'd bet my money on.

(And if you come back again with "Booze and hookers??", I'll smack ya good. )

Oh, got ya. :smilewink lol.

 

[Vince Young]

Oh, got ya. :smilewink lol.

I hate to think where you would've gone if I'd gone with my original post idea, which was, "Proof? BAH! My crotch is proof!" But I figured the Sluggy Freelance reference might go over too many people's heads, so I stopped it at BAH!

(Yeah, I read webcomics. Just flexin' my nerd-cred again.)

 

[weisbankaccount]

Proof? BAH! Proof ain't no fun. Give me wild message board speculation any day. That's entertainment!

But seriously... dude's won 4 games in TWO YEARS... and he ropes in a recruiting class that's THIS good?!?

Sorry, this means one of only 2 possibilites.

1.) Zook is an absolute recruiting GOD, in which case sign me up for atheism.

... or ...

2.) Something's rotten in the state of Illinois.

Guess where my money's going?

Something could very well be rotten but think about this deeper under the surface.

Illinois basically got 2 big time guys. One was from the Chicago public league which has always been a direct route to Champaign. For basketball and football - the connections are deep because of the U of I Chicago location.

The other was Benn, a DC area kid that could be considered the surprise. Thats the only real "steal" Zook and IL really made. They have some nice players otherwise but nobody else as high profile as these 2 and of course, Hughes picked ND - a Chicago league guy who was a steal for ND because Wilson was all over him to go to IL.

IL got a #15-18 class. It isnt like they were top 10 and competing with the Bigs out there. They were 3rd in the Big 10 consensus ranking behind Mich and OSU.

So really this is over 1 guy - Benn. Not exactly a trend. Zook has always been kn own as a recruiting guru. Look at what his Gator team just did???

 

[Vince Young]

Something could very well be rotten but think about this deeper under the surface.

Illinois basically got 2 big time guys. One was from the Chicago public league which has always been a direct route to Champaign. For basketball and football - the connections are deep because of the U of I Chicago location.

The other was Benn, a DC area kid that could be considered the surprise. Thats the only real "steal" Zook and IL really made. They have some nice players otherwise but nobody else as high profile as these 2 and of course, Hughes picked ND - a Chicago league guy who was a steal for ND because Wilson was all over him to go to IL.

IL got a #15-18 class. It isnt like they were top 10 and competing with the Bigs out there. They were 3rd in the Big 10 consensus ranking behind Mich and OSU.

So really this is over 1 guy - Benn. Not exactly a trend. Zook has always been kn own as a recruiting guru. Look at what his Gator team just did???

You're glossing over that "3rd in the Big Ten" thing. When the only teams in your conference that had better recruiting classes are Ohio State and Michigan, odds are that you had a pretty damn good recruiting class. And since when has Illinois football ever been 3rd in the Big Ten in ANYTHING... except maybe for conference losses? Plus a top-20 class ain't exactly chopped liver. So it's not "just about 1 guy." It's about the entire recruiting class.

As for Florida, one could argue that Zook was working with the afterglow of the Spurrier era, good athletic facilities and the natural recruiting boost that you get just from happening to be in a state that is rich with football talent. Florida is a FAR easier sell than Illinois.

I just don't think it's unreasonable to wonder what the heck is going on, and it's disingenuous of Ron Zook to wag his finger at everyone and basically say, "Shame on you all! How dare you puny mortals question my honesty and my mighty recruiting prowess?"

Sorry, Ron... last time I checked, Zeus is not spelled Z-O-O-K.

 

[kjones]

...on a side note, i've now been reading sluggy freelance for about 30 minutes...

 

[weisbankaccount]

You're glossing over that "3rd in the Big Ten" thing. When the only teams in your conference that had better recruiting classes are Ohio State and Michigan, odds are that you had a pretty damn good recruiting class. And since when has Illinois football ever been 3rd in the Big Ten in ANYTHING... except maybe for conference losses? Plus a top-20 class ain't exactly chopped liver. So it's not "just about 1 guy." It's about the entire recruiting class.

As for Florida, one could argue that Zook was working with the afterglow of the Spurrier era, good athletic facilities and the natural recruiting boost that you get just from happening to be in a state that is rich with football talent. Florida is a FAR easier sell than Illinois.

I just don't think it's unreasonable to wonder what the heck is going on, and it's disingenuous of Ron Zook to wag his finger at everyone and basically say, "Shame on you all! How dare you puny mortals question my honesty and my mighty recruiting prowess?"

Sorry, Ron... last time I checked, Zeus is not spelled Z-O-O-K.

Im just saying that its getting blown up bigger than it is. They were behind the 2 perrenial powerhouses and the 2 five star guys absolutely helped bolster them into the top 20 in recruiting.

IL was in the Sugar Bowl within the last 6-7 years, it isnt like theyre McNeese St.

The only guy I question is Benn - he really had no ties to IL whatsoever and wasnt from the midwest at all.

If you take away Benn and Wilson, its just a mid-level ranked class, somehwere around 30-40 and nobody says anything. Thats why I say it comes down to the 2 big name guys. 1 of which was in the IL recruiting hotbed of inner Chicago.

 

[FleaFlicker]

Im just saying that its getting blown up bigger than it is. They were behind the 2 perrenial powerhouses and the 2 five star guys absolutely helped bolster them into the top 20 in recruiting.

IL was in the Sugar Bowl within the last 6-7 years, it isnt like theyre McNeese St.

The only guy I question is Benn - he really had no ties to IL whatsoever and wasnt from the midwest at all.

If you take away Benn and Wilson, its just a mid-level ranked class, somehwere around 30-40 and nobody says anything. Thats why I say it comes down to the 2 big name guys. 1 of which was in the IL recruiting hotbed of inner Chicago.

Well the fact of the matter is that these aren't just blanket allegations either. There are reports of Benn and Juice Williams driving Escalades and such, stuff they never had before getting to Illinois.

Is it a case of Benn's family having saved enough money from his free tuition to buy him a $50,000 car? I doubt it, but that's me.

Also, I don't like how Zook keeps bringing up his Christian attitude in every interview he gives about this. Personally, I think it is to get sympathy. And we all know that this wouldn't be the first time that someone with overt Christian beliefs (or overt ANY beliefs) has done something that wouldn't be in line with them. Hell, my Catholic background can bring up at least 10 examples in OMAHA about that.

But alas, I have gone off-topic....

 

[irishnd31]

I hate to think where you would've gone if I'd gone with my original post idea, which was, "Proof? BAH! My crotch is proof!" But I figured the Sluggy Freelance reference might go over too many people's heads, so I stopped it at BAH!

(Yeah, I read webcomics. Just flexin' my nerd-cred again.)

LMAO. I'll rep you when I can bro.

 

[Satans Little Helper]

Proof? BAH! Proof ain't no fun. Give me wild message board speculation any day. That's entertainment!

But seriously... dude's won 4 games in TWO YEARS... and he ropes in a recruiting class that's THIS good?!?

Sorry, this means one of only 2 possibilites.

1.) Zook is an absolute recruiting GOD, in which case sign me up for atheism.

... or ...

2.) Something's rotten in the state of Illinois.

Guess where my money's going?

Seriuously, VY..... I m am putting you down for #1 cause Zook can get the kids. He did it for spurrier and after. The guy is like the greasiest car salesmen on the lot. The guy you want to avoid but cant and end up walking out of the dealership with rustproofing...

 

[weisbankaccount]

Seriuously, VY..... I m am putting you down for #1 cause Zook can get the kids. He did it for spurrier and after. The guy is like the greasiest car salesmen on the lot. The guy you want to avoid but cant and end up walking out of the dealership with rustproofing...

I think the fact that Robert Hughes was courted heavily by IL and ended up at ND, yet he said IL did nothing seedy to lure him should be enough for the overt recruitnik types. He said that Zook is just a cool guy who connects with younger people easier than the other coaches do.

That IL rumor about kids getting cars dates back to Lou Henson days with Deion Thomas the basketball player from IL. How blatantly obvious is it that a school would give a recruit a Escalade? Come on.

 

[Vince Young]

...on a side note, i've now been reading sluggy freelance for about 30 minutes...

Heh... this is his comic. Is it not nifty? Worship the comic.

Apparently, Pete Abrams is building up for some big event that will go down in 7 days, probably the return of Aylee, but it could also be the return of Oasis. Or both. So, you have a week to read 10 years' worth of archives! What are you doing wasting time posting here? Hop to it!

 

[BestBIrish47]

It is official, Ron Zook has joined Urban Meyer as double Barrel COCKWADS!! In theatres fall 2007

 

[Vince Young]

Seriuously, VY..... I m am putting you down for #1 cause Zook can get the kids. He did it for spurrier and after. The guy is like the greasiest car salesmen on the lot. The guy you want to avoid but cant and end up walking out of the dealership with rustproofing...

I have just one word for that, gd1977:

 

[kjones]

Heh... this is his comic. Is it not nifty? Worship the comic.

Apparently, Pete Abrams is building up for some big event that will go down in 7 days, probably the return of Aylee, but it could also be the return of Oasis. Or both. So, you have a week to read 10 years' worth of archives! What are you doing wasting time posting here? Hop to it!

I'm only most of the way through book 3, so I'll never make it, but it's freaking funny anyway!

In an unnrelated note, my productivity is shot to hell.

 

[Vince Young]

I'm only most of the way through book 3, so I'll never make it, but it's freaking funny anyway!

In an unnrelated note, my productivity is shot to hell.

Torg: You know the problem with nudist colonies?

Riff: What?

Torg: No quality control.

 

[johnnd05]

BGS has a nice new post on this (link):

the Big Boss Man

A minor development in the Zook story. Yahoo Sports' Dan Wetzel (the reporter who broke the Reggie Bush scandal) had a piece about Big 10 commish Jim Delany's comments that "that when it comes to procuring football players his league is more ethical and academically minded than the Southeastern Conference". (The original letter from Delany is a hoot.)

But buried in Wetzel's article was this interesting item:

Meanwhile, Big Ten coaches (not Notre Dame) spent the last six months whispering about the recruiting practices of Illinois' Ron Zook.

This directly refutes what Zook & Guenther said last week to reporters. This also refutes Delany's contention to the NYT (in an unsolicited phone call) that it was "blogosphere smoke" that fueled the rumors. Furthermore, it comports with what we mentioned in the Zook rundown below, that UM had sent letters of complaint to Delany about Zook & Illinois.

Meanwhile, Guenther hasn't released the results of his investigation, the one that IL beat writer Mark Tupper breathlessly exclaimed would exonerate Zook and "point a harsh finger at the real culprit", namely Notre Dame. (We're waiting, Ron.)

If Wetzel is correct, then all the ND-bashing by Zook and Guenther of late is nothing more than a smokescreen meant to divert attention from Illinois. And if Delany is sitting on letters from Big 10 schools complaining of Illinois, then he's complicit in the anti-ND campaign as well. Perhaps he's orchestrating it, circling the Big 10 wagons while pointing the finger at a convenient, common enemy.

 

[Vince Young]

I agree with Blue-Gray Sky on this. It's sounding more and more like the Big Ten is trying to circle the wagons and blame an outsider. But there's only so long that'll hold up. John L. Smith already broke ranks, and sooner or later The Zooker's gonna steal someone away from Jim Tressel or Lloyd Carr, and then it'll be on.