Native American Nicknames

[GoshenGipper]

I'm curious what evryone's opinion is on Native American nicknames. Both my high school and middle scools have one, and the private high school in Goshen used to have one but they changed it. I am in favor of it as long as it's done in a classy way with a sense of pride, not a joking way or cartoonish manner. I love my old high school and I was and still am very proud of our mascot and the logo we use. I know my school did make a few changes though. The marching band, nor the pep band are not allowed to play the Tomahawk Chop now, per School Board regulations, but the students are still allowed to do it, and they took down the sign that said "Welcome to the Wigwam" that was located in the main lobby on the way to the gyms main entrance.

 

[ACamp1900]

I don't see what is wrong with names like "Seminoles" and such... Really who would know ANYTHING about the Seminole tribe today is not for FSU??? It's a great way to keep the legacy alive... Children ask about them simply due to the football team, and thus a verbal history stays alive... never saw why a tribe member would be against that... I'm of Pawnee blood and would be honored to have a team named the "Fighting Pawnees"...
But as for teams like the "Redskins" and "Indians"... I can see the gripe...

Part of the problem is you usually have multiple groups claiming to be the same tribe and the stance of the various groups clash on the matter...

I’m also Irish and say I don't take offense to having an Irishman shown as a drunken brawler and neither does anyone else to my knowledge, consistency would be nice

 

[GoshenGipper]

My school's nickname is the Redskins, but I'm still very proud of it. We've had it since 1916, or 1920 I can't remember exactly, I would have to go look it up. Before that GHS was known as the Red Massacre, I could see a problem in that one. The School that changed their names used to be the Braves, but now they are the Bruins.

We also have a traveling trophy with the other school in our conference that has a Native American nickname. It's four and a half foot tall wooden Chief. It's a great souce of pride and untill recently it had never left our halls.

BTW here's another little fact about our nickname. When the school orginally dug out the land for the new pool back in the early 70s, they accidently dug up a couple Native American graves that they didn't know were there at the time.

I know that ND wasn't orginally known as the Fightin' Irish. If I remember right I think they were the Nomads. The Irish nickname was giving to them by some sports writers from Detroit and it was originally ment as an insult. However the Notre Dame faithfull adopted it because to them it was a badge of pride.

 

[ACamp1900]

I believe at first, after the insult you mentioned, we were the Fighting Irish Terriers and the "terriers" just got dropped after time

 

[BGIF]

... they took down the sign that said "Welcome to the Wigwam" that was located in the main lobby on the way to the gyms main entrance.

Names like the Redskins I think are offensive and the caricatures like the Cleveland Indians. If the Illinois (which is a bastardization of the tribal name) don't mind ( I believe the don't exist anymore) no harm no foul.

wigwam is offensive? Guess we can't go to the Igloo or yurt then either. Aren't we insulting the Middle English and Old French by referring to a tent. No, I'm not a Native American nor am I English or French nor Roman or Greek where most of our words came from.

Banning the word Brave was outright farcical. The word bravo (brave) was in both the Spanish and Italian languages before Columbus stumbled onto the New World. The Romans and Greeks had it in their language as barbarus and barbaros long before Leif Ericson missed Greenland.

More than 1500 years before Columbus Julius Cesear used the term to describe Vercingetorix and the "barbarians". The Ancient Greeks used their word to describe non-Greeks. It was actually meant as an insult.

If "Brave" is insulting they better not play the Star Bangled Banner at an NCAA Event.

Ban Redman or Redskins, I wouldn't like to be on the Fighting Whities but leave Brave for what it implies in the world today - courage.

 

[BGIF]

... But as for teams like the "Redskins" and "Indians"... I can see the gripe ...

"Indians" is an interesting term. The word was incredibly inaccurate as Columbus never found India. The people he encountered weren't from that subcontinent.

I understand the significance of "Cowboys and Indians" but the former Asian emigrees never referred to themselves as Indians.

And "Native Americans" is the word today.

 

[BGIF]

... I know that ND wasn't orginally known as the Fightin' Irish. If I remember right I think they were the Nomads. The Irish nickname was giving to them by some sports writers from Detroit and it was originally ment as an insult. However the Notre Dame faithfull adopted it because to them it was a badge of pride.

ND's team traveled extensively in an era when teams didn't. When Rockne was a player the "little school from The West" traveled to West Point and beat the mighty cadets in 1913.

Catholic hatred (hello Michigan!) was part of the reason to travel to find opponents. When the stadium was being built ND played an entire season on the road.

I've never read the name "Nomads" associated with ND but they were called the Ramblers as well as The Catholics. The "Irish" nicknamed is attributed to several sources one being a reporter, another opposing fans, and another being the ND people urging the players to fight hard like Irishman. Only the opposing fans (Purdue?) story was derogatory. UND has a piece on it somewhere.

I think Murray Sperber may have researched it years ago. Do a google search.

 

[GoshenGipper]

Well like I said that's my school's nickname and I'm very proud of it, and I would probaby be ticked off for a long time if they changed it. Even though that's our nickname it's never used in a coartoonish or joking manner. All logos and statues are very powerful and striking images and are viewed with adoration. Like I said I'm very proud of my school's tradition, and my heritage. It's not really enough to count, but my great, great, great grandpa on my mother's side was a chief in the Kasasaw tribe which was part of the Souix Nation. My mom has a piture of him in full dress with his wife and kids. I can trace the height in my family genes back to his line. Another bit of tradition at my high school is that our first football team was in 1885, and then we had another one in 1886. The football program was then suspended untill 1895, and since then there has been a football tam every year with the exception of four years during WW1.

BTW I wasn't offended by the Fighting Whities from Denver, CO. I thought it was very funny and I would have encouraged them had I ever met them personally.

If it makes you feel any better, the new AD put a ban on our favorite cheer during my Sr. year. You see, to Goshen, Northwood (Yes, Ryan Burkhart's HS) is like our USC. So every week during Northwood week there would be banners and signs all over the school that said "Beat The Wood!" LOL! The Concord Minutemen are like our version of Michigan for anyone that cares and yes, we have plenty of jokes for their name as well ... "minute men"

 

[BGIF]

... If it makes you feel any better,

I didn't feel badly. You asked for opinions :

I'm curious what evryone's opinion is on Native American nicknames ...

I opined.


Acamp1900 brought up "Redskins" and "Indians":

But as for teams like the "Redskins" and "Indians"... I can see the gripe...

I quoted that when I responded to him.

 

[GoshenGipper]

I was refering to your Wigwam and Brave rant, not your opinion.

See, he's a stupid AD that bans all kinds of fun stuff. We nickednamed him "No Fun", and put it on one of our Sr. shirts, and our principal's daughter even called him that in her graduation speech.

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

It's sad that colleges and the like have to give up their history and tradition to appease the PC crowd. The same types who cry for "free speech" are the first ones to try and regulate it!!
I used to like St Johns (see chris mullin) but the redmen sounded a whole lot cooler than the red storm does.
My advice to those with exxagerated sensitivities is... GET OVER IT!

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

I hope the fact that my high school team being called the Falcons doesnt offend the birds, as they may not want to be seen as too aggressive.

 

[RI Domer]

I Have to vote for indiference coming from a State where many towns and cities are named for Native Americans that were driven off there land. Nobody seems to have trouble with that. Some of these team names are honorable indian words like Braves and Seminoles. For the NCAA to target all Indian team names as a whole is ignorant in it's own right. I am a cowboys and Knick fan I have yet to here Texans or the Dutch complain. But at the same time if a team decides it wants to change it's name I really have better things to do with my life than care. I do though, admit if ND suddenly changed to the Rockets I might have some troubles.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Names like the Redskins I think are offensive and the caricatures like the Cleveland Indians.

I can only imagine a team named "The Darkies" or "The Coloreds"

It *IS* the exact same reference. There is no difference...

I think removing all the names is dumb, but to pretend that "The Redskins" is any different than "The Darkies" or "The Coloreds" is wrong. It IS the same.

 

[Junkhead]

Are Irish people offended by the "Fighting Irish"? The leprechaun is pretty disturbing!

 

[GoshenGipper]

The thing is, how could we mean it as an insult and yet be so proud to be one at the same time?

 

[ACamp1900]

I can only imagine a team named "The Darkies" or "The Coloreds"

It *IS* the exact same reference. There is no difference...

I think removing all the names is dumb, but to pretend that "The Redskins" is any different than "The Darkies" or "The Coloreds" is wrong. It IS the same.

yep... this may sound dumb but my mother is a HUGE skins fan so I am partial to not changing it... but if any team in sports needs to be changed it's that one... how ironic they are from our nations cap....

still think tribes wanting FSU, Utah and others to change their spec. names is like the tribe leaders cutting off their nose to spite their face...

 

[GoshenGipper]

The Seminole Tribe of Florida doesn't want F$U to change their mascot, because they get a portion of all merchandise sells that have the Seminole name or logo on them.

 

[ACamp1900]

The Seminole Tribe of Florida doesn't want F$U to change their mascot, because they get a portion of all merchandise sells that have the Seminole name or logo on them.

yep, but other portions of the Seminole tribe fight it I understand... no one can agree on anything anymore... we even fight about the names of sports teams for crying out loud

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Are Irish people offended by the "Fighting Irish"? The leprechaun is pretty disturbing!

Yeah, but there is a difference...a big difference. Imagine if Notre Dame, which had MANY MANY proud players of Italian descent were the fighting Wops? Or Fighting Dagos?

The Irish were proud of being scrappy. Heck, many are proud of being drunks.

But most American Indian tribes feel no pride in being called by a racial slur...and it IS intended as a racial slur (Redskins). Not only that, they are called that by the group of people who SLAUGHTERED their women and children.

I don't think I would be to happy to have China march into the US, kill 90% of the population of Americans, and then start naming sports franchises by a slur of a name.

Seminole, is like "Fighting Irish" or "Hustlin Quaker"...I have no issue with that, so long as the Tribe is cool with it.

 

[GoshenGipper]

I've never understood the Italian slurs. Anyone care to elaborate?

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

I've never understood the Italian slurs. Anyone care to elaborate?

WOP = was derived from an Italian word "guappo", which means thug...

Here's Wikipedia for Dago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dago

 

[ACamp1900]

Yeah, but there is a difference...a big difference. Imagine if Notre Dame, which had MANY MANY proud players of Italian descent were the fighting Wops? Or Fighting Dagos?

The Irish were proud of being scrappy. Heck, many are proud of being drunks.

But most American Indian tribes feel no pride in being called by a racial slur...and it IS intended as a racial slur (Redskins). Not only that, they are called that by the group of people who SLAUGHTERED their women and children.

I don't think I would be to happy to have China march into the US, kill 90% of the population of Americans, and then start naming sports franchises by a slur of a name.

Seminole, is like "Fighting Irish" or "Hustlin Quaker"...I have no issue with that, so long as the Tribe is cool with it.

Listen to my liberal friend guys... he can be right on rare occasion...

 

[GoshenGipper]

Listen to my liberal friend guys... he can be right on rare occasion...

Haha, I had already chalked his opinion up to the fact that he's from Oregon. He just can't help himself.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Haha, I had already chalked his opinion up to the fact that he's from Oregon. He just can't help himself.

I am not from Oregon, the locals would be happy to tell you that...LOL

I am from the Midwest mostly. Minnesota, Ohio, and Indiana. However, before my MBA I got a history degree...so I am keenly aware of the genocide we committed just over 100 years ago.

We did it 120 years back...the Nazis 60. Kinda puts it in perspective.

 

[ACamp1900]

I am not from Oregon, the locals would be happy to tell you that...LOL
I am from the Midwest mostly. Minnesota, Ohio, and Indiana. However, before my MBA I got a history degree...so I am keenly aware of the genocide we committed just over 100 years ago.

We did it 120 years back...the Nazis 60. Kinda puts it in perspective.

I got family up there and I know that's true... they LOVE California's

I got a Creative Writing degree (go figure right?) and working on my Child Development Degree but I am a third of the way through my history as well... the history is the most interesting to me for sure but the other two are paying the bills until I can get my Master's and such and move to the college level with the history...expensive but I like it, I'm a scholar... just got done reading a book on the Peloponnesian's today in fact... nothing like antiquity and a good beer...

 

[GoshenGipper]

Oh, I know we did a lot of horrible things to them. I'm quite the history buff myself. One of the worst things we did in my opinion anyway was to give them blankets with small pox germs on them in a trade while we were claiming to help them. I'm just saying to me, it's source of pride, not a racial slur. Although I can see how it could still be viewed that way, but that's not our intent behind the usage. I knew there would be people opposed to the name when I asked the question, but I though since ND has such a wide fan base that it might actually cuase some quality debate and insight.

BTW I could see the Tuskegee Airmen as a "black" mascot for a school in the south. In my opinion that would be really cool, especially if it was at a MEAC, or SWAC school. It's a good war movie too, if you guys like those kind of movies.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

BTW I could see the Tuskegee Airmen as a "black" mascot for a school in the south. In my opinion that would be really cool, especially if it was at a MEAC, or SWAC school. It's a good war movie too, if you guys like those kind of movies.

If they (or the famillies) agreed to it, that would be a wonderful tribute. But I think we would call the team something along the lines of the Fighting Airmen or something... We would not call them the "darkies" (which is what we do with the Redskins)

 

[kjones]

If they (or the famillies) agreed to it, that would be a wonderful tribute. But I think we would call the team something along the lines of the Fighting Airmen or something... We would not call them the "darkies" (which is what we do with the Redskins)

On the otherside of the coin, the Fighting Whities makes me laugh out loud.

"These Fighty Whities keep rubbing me the wrong way..."

 

[Satans Little Helper]

As i am of Cherokee decent i feel obliged to respond to this thread. In all seriousness, and with all due respect, iMO the use of any image, name,or likeness to the numerous conquered nations is dispicable.

It by far trancends the limited world of mascots and goes much further into the commercialization of products in american culture ( Jeep grand Chreokee, Toyota Sequoia etc...) The names are not used out of respect or intimidation of opponents or revenrence for a time long past. They are now marketable images of a culture that was systematically exterminated by an invading race of humans. I am not going to be so naive to think that it would never have happened or that some other group of people would not have done it, but the fact remains that the beautiful and harmonious cultures extant prior to the 1500's in america have now all but been exterminated and the people removed by coercion, lies, and outright genocide. My great grandmothers family were one of the Cherokees that managed to escape the hostile round up of the Chreokees in the NC Appalachians to be removed to Oklahoma on the trail of tears. They hid in the Kentucky mountains well out of site till the turn of the century (50+ years).

I could talk about this for a long time. I still have a turtle shell rattle that is 200 years old in my possession and it is all that i have of my Cherokee heritage due to the persistent destruction of my heritage. ( my great great great grandfather, a Wolf clan leader- the warriors clan, made the rattle)

Back to the main point I do not agree with it but the nations that actually have managed to survive on the plots of land alotted to them have a say in what they will allow. If they see that it is beneficial for them, to achieve a proper life in a country that up until now has denied them every basic right offered even to black slaves and undocumented aliens, i will say that it is their proper right to allow it. If not legally allowed by the tribe, I say no way should they be used and the nation sohuld have every recourse for pursuing legal action agiaanst said entities.