2016 Presidential Horse Race

[pkt77242]

Ben Carson touts creationism during Nashville speech

 

[T Town Tommy]

Ben Carson touts creationism during Nashville speech

And...

at least the man stands for something he believes in. That's more than most of the presidential candidates. One things for sure... you are more likely to get the truth from Carson than from the rest of the hacks seeking the office.

 

[pkt77242]

And...

at least the man stands for something he believes in. That's more than most of the presidential candidates. One things for sure... you are more likely to get the truth from Carson than from the rest of the hacks seeking the office.

Really? I don't think so. Did you watch the debate when he was asked about his ties to the supplement company? Sure he will tell the truth.

At debate, Ben Carson says he has no connection to Mannatech | PolitiFact

Carson said, "I didn’t have an involvement with" the nutritional supplement company Mannatech.

As far as we can tell, Carson was not a paid employee or official endorser of the product. However, his claim suggests he has no ties to Mannatech whatsoever. In reality, he got paid to deliver speeches to Mannatech and appeared in promotional videos, and he consistently delivered glowing reviews of the nutritional supplements. As a world-renowned surgeon, Carson’s opinion on health issues carries weight, and Mannatech has used Carson’s endorsement to its advantage.

We rate Carson’s claim False.

What makes you think he will tell the truth?


ETA: Also why should someone get point for "standing for something he believes in" when it is factually wrong.

I think this article says it best. Montini: Ben Carson's Stone Age views on evolution

For generations expressing doubts about evolution has been popular with conservative politicians hoping to appease the religious right.

Back in 1981 the late President Ronald Reagan spoke of evolution being “only” a theory.

At the time, the great American paleontologist and writer Stephen Jay Gould set him straight.

Or tried.

In an essay for “Discover” magazine Gould wrote in part, “Evolution is a theory. It is also a fact… Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.”

He added, “Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.”

 

[T Town Tommy]

I didn't watch the debate as I was not interested in the dog and pony show. I do find Carson the most genuine of the Republican candidates with Huckabee right there with him. I don't know what his ties are to the company, what his statements were during the debate, etc. If he wasn't being honest then he should be called out.

While I don't think Carson is best suited for the politics of the White House, I don't find him to be a bad person. And that includes his position on creationism... which shouldn't really matter.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I didn't watch the debate as I was not interested in the dog and pony show. I do find Carson the most genuine of the Republican candidates with Huckabee right there with him. I don't know what his ties are to the company, what his statements were during the debate, etc. If he wasn't being honest then he should be called out.

While I don't think Carson is best suited for the politics of the White House, I don't find him to be a bad person. And that includes his position on creationism... which shouldn't really matter.

Yes. He's by far the nicest guy and utmost gentleman in the race. His religious beliefs... not only should they be on the far back burner but look at who America elected twice: a one term Senator who is friends with convicted terrorist Bill Ayers and sat in Jeremiah Wright's "church" for 20 years.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Yes. He's by far the nicest guy and utmost gentleman in the race. His religious beliefs... not only should they be on the far back burner but look at who America elected twice: a one term Senator who is friends with convicted terrorist Bill Ayers and sat in Jeremiah Wright's "church" for 20 years.

But our President said he didn't agree with Reverend Wright. Guess he slept a lot in church.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Yes. He's by far the nicest guy and utmost gentleman in the race. His religious beliefs... not only should they be on the far back burner but look at who America elected twice: a one term Senator who is friends with convicted terrorist Bill Ayers and sat in Jeremiah Wright's "church" for 20 years.

And Jimmy Carter is the kindest person and most devout Christian ever to hold the office. You say lots of mean things about him.

Carson's religious beliefs are absolutely important when they contradict accepted science. The president has an impact on policy related to any number of scientific ventures.

 

[T Town Tommy]

ETA: Also why should someone get point for "standing for something he believes in" when it is factually wrong.

I think this article says it best. Montini: Ben Carson's Stone Age views on evolution

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on evolution/creationism, etc. But it's the respect for one's opinion where more people fail.

 

[phgreek]

Yes. He's by far the nicest guy and utmost gentleman in the race. His religious beliefs... not only should they be on the far back burner but look at who America elected twice: a one term Senator who is friends with convicted terrorist Bill Ayers and sat in Jeremiah Wright's "church" for 20 years.

oh now, aren't ya being a little harsh. Things haven't turned out that bad...

lets look at economic indicators...err maybe later
lets look at foreign policy....mmmm maybe not
lets look at how united we all are...lets not

I'd rather get to where we choose from two people who have a shred of character, and the capability to run the country. I like Ben Carson, and some of the criticisms are mind numbing based on who most of these guys voted for the past TWO elections....that said we do not need gentleman politicians at the moment.

People talk of litmus tests...EXECUTIVE EXPERIENCE is mine. Can you employ a method of decision making that mostly gets it right w/o waiting for 7 months? It is a skill that is developed, and unless you've been a CEO of a big corporation, a General, or Governor...you DO NOT have it. Hillary has no business in this race...she is a zit on the ass of this nation...the fact that Dems have carried her this far is as much a statement about their character as Trump is about Republicans'...although trump doesn't have 450 super delegates now does he?...great judgement there! Bernie Sanders has no chance because of the Hillary Machine. No human being has a chance on the Dem side. The only people I'm likely to cast a vote for at this point... can't win their nomination.

I'd like a do over...for this entire cycle.

 

[GoIrish41]

Yes. He's by far the nicest guy and utmost gentleman in the race. His religious beliefs... not only should they be on the far back burner but look at who America elected twice: a one term Senator who is friends with convicted terrorist Bill Ayers and sat in Jeremiah Wright's "church" for 20 years.

So Carson's beliefs should not matter but Obama's should? Personally don't think religious beliefs should matter at all. But believing the world is 6000 years old denies science ... And that is problematic.

 

[T Town Tommy]

So Carson's beliefs should not matter but Obama's should? Personally don't think religious beliefs should matter at all. But believing the world is 6000 years old denies science ... And that is problematic.

Being able to define "years" in the sense that our divine creator would is also problematic. One should not think of God as man... he is not.

 

[GoIrish41]

Being able to define "years" in the sense that our divine creator would is also problematic. One should not think of God as man... he is not.

But Carson is and he says years .... so ....

 

[T Town Tommy]

But carso is and he says years .... so ....

That's all you got? OK...

 

[Buster Bluth]

Being able to define "years" in the sense that our divine creator would is also problematic. One should not think of God as man... he is not.

Then Mr. Bible writer should have picked another word. If you spell y-e-a-r-s then you meant years and its meaning. It's pretty simple.

But when religion has to walk away from its own beliefs, I can see how "well maybe this word isn't what we think it means..." can come into play.

tips fedora.

 

[GoIrish41]

That's all you got? OK...

I think it is substantially more than Carson means 'God Years'". WTF Tommy? I know for a fact that you are way smarter than that.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

How about the fact that he thinks the devil is responsible for Darwin proposing evolution?

 

[T Town Tommy]

Then pick another word. If you spell y-e-a-r-s then you meant years and its meaning. It's pretty simple.

But when religion has to walk away from its own beliefs, I can see how "well maybe this word isn't what we think it means..." can come into play.

tips fedora.

Again... define years in the sense that our divine creator did. You can't.

 

[NDgradstudent]

So Carson's beliefs should not matter but Obama's should? Personally don't think religious beliefs should matter at all. But believing the world is 6000 years old denies science ... And that is problematic.

First of all, I think Carson knows more about science than most people.

Obviously, Obama's attending an anti-white, anti-American church for decades was a matter of concern for Republicans. Nobody wanted to be lectured about how racist they were by someone who attended such a church. Many of us still don't.

Carson's beliefs about the age of the Earth will not affect public policy the way that Obama's beliefs about race relations have. For these purposes, saying "I believe in evolution" is just a matter of virtue signaling.

 

[GoIrish41]

Again... define years in the sense that our divine creator did. You can't.

Prove that there is any such thing as a divine creator ... You can't, he can't. Until I have proof, a year is 365 days.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

So Carson's beliefs should not matter but Obama's should? Personally don't think religious beliefs should matter at all. But believing the world is 6000 years old denies science ... And that is problematic.

It's ass backwards that the Obama supporters tried sweeping the Jeremiah Wright thing under the rug, but Ben Carson's religious beliefs (which are nowhere near as extreme as Wright's church) are a big red flag.

What a load of shit.

 

[pkt77242]

Again... define years in the sense that our divine creator did. You can't.

Who gives a shit? Also why don't we just change any word to mean what we want it to, thus proving ourselves correct?

He doesn't believe in evolution, he thinks the devil is responsible for Darwin proposing evolution (thanks jayhawk), what else needs to be said.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Prove that there is any such thing as a divine creator ... You can't, he can't. Until I have proof, a year is 365 days.

Again friend... you have your beliefs and I have mine. If your beliefs are different than mine I respect that. But Christianity is based on faith. And I have plenty of that. If I am wrong in the end then so be it. If you are wrong then God Bless.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Who gives a shit? Also why don't we just change any word to mean what we want it to, thus proving ourselves correct?

He doesn't believe in evolution, he thinks the devil is responsible for Darwin proposing evolution (thanks jayhawk), what else needs to be said.

Really nothing else needs to be said. If your opinion is different than mine, Carsons, or anyone else's then that's fine.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Yes. He's by far the nicest guy and utmost gentleman in the race. His religious beliefs... not only should they be on the far back burner but look at who America elected twice: a one term Senator who is friends with convicted terrorist Bill Ayers and sat in

2008: Obama has no experience and his religious views are questionable! You'd be foolish to elect him!

2015: Yo that Ben Carson is one fine man. What a guy!

Jeremiah Wright's "church" for 20 years.

You know I fell down a wikipedia hole the other day and was reading the quotes in question and, well, this..

"Violence begets violence. Hatred begets hatred. And terrorism begets terrorism. A white ambassador said that, y'all. Not a black militant. Not a reverend who preaches about racism. An ambassador whose eyes are wide open and who is trying to get us to wake up and move away from this dangerous precipice upon which we are now poised. The ambassador said the people that we have wounded don't have the military capability we have. But they do have individuals who are willing to die and take thousands with them. And we need to come to grips with that."

...sounds an awful lot like this:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/KuX73Ixqtbg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I was honestly struck by how not insane his comment was. It has been seven years since that controversy and
had forgotten most of it and was expecting something more controversial.

Another one that caught attention:

"[The United States] government lied about their belief that all men were created equal. The truth is they believed that all white men were created equal. The truth is they did not even believe that white women were created equal, in creation nor civilization. The government had to pass an amendment to the Constitution to get white women the vote. Then the government had to pass an equal rights amendment to get equal protection under the law for women. The government still thinks a woman has no rights over her own body, and between Uncle Clarence who sexually harassed Anita Hill, and a closeted Klan court, that is a throwback to the 19th century, handpicked by Daddy Bush, Ronald Reagan, Gerald Ford, between Clarence and that stacked court, they are about to undo Roe vs. Wade, just like they are about to un-do affirmative action. The government lied in its founding documents and the government is still lying today. Governments lie."

I mean that's not totally nuts either. We love to jack ourselves off about being the home of the brave and the land of the free, but reality is that we were a very racist country from the very beginning and there has been a lot of pain and suffering in undoing that.

"The government lied about Pearl Harbor too. They knew the Japanese were going to attack. Governments lie. The government lied about the Gulf of Tonkin Incident. They wanted that resolution to get us in the Vietnam War. Governments lie. The government lied about Nelson Mandela and our CIA helped put him in prison and keep him there for 27 years. The South African government lied on Nelson Mandela. Governments lie."

"The government lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq being a threat to the United States peace. And guess what else? If they don't find them some weapons of mass destruction, they gonna do just like the LAPD, and plant the some weapons of mass destruction. Governments lie."

I think that's generally all true. Obviously the LAPD bit didn't happen but nothing here is egregious.

"And the United States of America government, when it came to treating her citizens of Indian descent fairly, she failed. She put them on reservations. When it came to treating her citizens of Japanese descent fairly, she failed. She put them in internment prison camps. When it came to treating her citizens of African descent fairly, America failed. She put them in chains, the government put them on slave quarters, put them on auction blocks, put them in cotton field, put them in inferior schools, put them in substandard housing, put them in scientific experiments, put them in the lowest paying jobs, put them outside the equal protection of the law, kept them out of their racist bastions of higher education and locked them into positions of hopelessness and helplessness. The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing "God Bless America". No, no, no, not God Bless America. God damn America — that's in the Bible — for killing innocent people. God damn America, for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America, as long as she tries to act like she is God, and she is supreme. The United States government has failed the vast majority of her citizens of African descent."

I mean that's not the worst thing I've ever heard. He goes overboard on the god damn America theatrics but boy I really remembered him being an evil dude in 2008. I guess Fox News and AM radio can really put the glasses on ya.

It's ass backwards that the Obama supporters tried sweeping the Jeremiah Wright thing under the rug, but Ben Carson's religious beliefs (which are nowhere near as extreme as Wright's church) are a big red flag.

What a load of shit.

Is anything quoted there really that extreme? If we collectively unbunch the panties over the god damn America part and it's a solid anti-government rant plenty of conservatives could have written themselves if they were being honest about many of the dark parts of US history.

I think the part about sweeping it under the rug was that Obama was just there for the political affiliation. That's a practice that goes back to George Washington showing up for Anglican services and not taking communion. Jefferson did the same despite not being Christian. I imagine guys like Franklin and Madison did the same too.

Ben Carson actually believes that the Earth is thousands of years old. That's...weird. Obama being a politician isn't weird.

 

[pkt77242]

Again friend... you have your beliefs and I have mine. If your beliefs are different than mine I respect that. But Christianity is based on faith. And I have plenty of that. If I am wrong in the end then so be it. If you are wrong then God Bless.

The problem is that we have a country that questions science (and not just on the right, there are definitely some on the Left such as the anti-vaccine crowd), and people like Carson play into that. It tells me that they let their personal beliefs trump the facts in front of them, which is a bad thing for a President. He can believe in Creationism all he wants but once you enter the public arena (running for President) those beliefs matter and should be discussed. Just as I dislike the anti-vaccine crowd on the left, I also dislike the Creationism segment on the right (not that they can't personally believe it, but once you want bunk science in the schools, I have a problem with it).

 

[Cackalacky]

I know none of y'all will watch these but I suggest you do. These are excellent sources of why believing Creationism is crazy and dangerous to our society.
14 Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism

Ben Carson is a Seven Day Adventist. He believes the world was created in six days 6000 years ago. This is insane. Because he can work on a brain means Jack shit when you reject the best explanation of reality based on "hard evidence". This is the opposite of conjecture or untestable assumptions. Someone said earlier that he knows more about science than others.... well that does not mean anything. knowing biology and solving physical problems is not all that science is and it is far greater in scope and knowledge than neurobiology.

It totally matters that someone like Carson or Cruz, who are excited about End Times, should or should not be in charge of the largest arsenal of global destruction.

 

[NDgradstudent]

they let their personal beliefs trump the facts in front of them,

Most decisions that a President makes are not about "personal beliefs" vs. "facts." If Russia invades Georgia again (and captures Mark Richt!), that is a fact. What a President does about it depends upon advice from others, Congress' view of the matter, his own risk aversion, and his personal beliefs. No moral premises follow from the "facts" in these types of cases.

For this reason I'm still confused about the negative consequences of Carson holding this view. He is going to start a nuclear war because of it? Neither Reagan nor Bush did. He is going to encourage ignorance among the public? The public's ignorance is not affected by what the President thinks. Most of the public does not know or care about politics.

Not to worry, though. If you don't like Carson's view on the age of the Earth, you can always vote Trump.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Yeah, putting someone who believes that the end of times is imminent and desirable in a position where they could actually bring about the end of times is a little bit concerning. That being said, for the most part I don't really care about what someone believes, but I do care a lot if they're willing to ignore an overwhelming scientific consensus on an issue of global import.

 

[pkt77242]

Most decisions that a President makes are not about "personal beliefs" vs. "facts." If Russia invades Georgia again (and captures Mark Richt!), that is a fact. What a President does about it depends upon advice from others, Congress' view of the matter, his own risk aversion, and his personal beliefs. No moral premises follow from the "facts" in these types of cases.

For this reason I'm still confused about the negative consequences of Carson holding this view. He is going to start a nuclear war because of it? Neither Reagan nor Bush did. He is going to encourage ignorance among the public? The public's ignorance is not affected by what the President thinks. Most of the public does not know or care about politics.

Not to worry, though. If you don't like Carson's view on the age of the Earth, you can always vote Trump.

First off he is ignoring reality which is dangerous, and ignoring "the advice of others" because he won't listen to the most knowledgeable people (scientist). Also Carson does believe that the end times is near, which should be worrisome.

Finally his personal beliefs will impact the public ignorance. For better or for worse the U.S. President is a celebrity of sorts and people listen to them (think Jenny McCarthy and the anti-vaccine crowd). It isn't like this is a personal belief of his and he keeps it to himself, he talks about it rather frequently. So yes it will impact the public.

I would never vote for Trump but I would most likely vote for Kasich over Clinton (though Kasich will never get the nod, just as I would have considered voting for Huntsman but he had no chance at the nomination during the last cycle as well).

 

[yankeehater]

https://youtu.be/rHmBZGt48eM

I could never vote for such a heartless SOB as Hillary. My ultra liberal friend never would believe me that Hillary was lying about the Benghazi attacks and the video they blamed it on. My exact quote was, "anyone that can lie in front of the four flag draped caskets as she did has not heart or soul." I also heard one of the Father's of these men speak on a San Diego radio station about the lies they were telling the families and how appalled he was about the treatment they received.

Go to approx. min 6 of the video to see one of the many reasons I as many Americans despise this woman.