'16 OH TE Luke Farrell (Ohio State Verbal)

[BobbyMac]

Classic... You went to ND and OSU, say whatever you want. You've earned the right.

 

[Classic Irish]

Classic... You went to ND and OSU, say whatever you want. You've earned the right.

I'm by no means disputing that one can get an excellent education at a school like Ohio State or Florida State. But I question that sense/motivation of anyone who turns down opportunities to go to a premier academic institution on a free ride for a school of considerably lesser distinction. When I see people defending high school athletes spurning free rides to places like ND and Stanford and opting for the likes of Alabama, Florida State, and Ohio State with the comment: "Maybe he does take academics seriously; how do you know he's not going there with the intent of excelling academically?", I employ Occam's razor: the simplest explanation is likely the correct one (i.e. they just want to cruise and not have to go to class). Are there exceptions? Sure, but those exceptions prove the rule.

 

[Buster Bluth]

So you would be receptive if your child had free rides from academically prestigious schools (e.g. Duke, ND, Stanford, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Princeton, Dartmouth, University of Chicago, etc...) and they preferred to turn those down to attend a school like Florida State for example? If so, then with all due respect you and I were brought up very differently.

Florida would be the more appropriate fill in for Ohio State academically speaking.

If I were this kid I'd be going to Duke or Vanderbilt, no doubt about it. But I'm not this kid.

Maybe he wants to be an educator. He'll graduate from a top 20 public school in the country debt free and can get a job coaching/teaching at just about any Ohio high school he wants. And assuming he redshirts he would have a head start on his master's too. It's not a bad deal, and going to a place like Duke or Vanderbilt isn't going to be much better if those are his goals.

It's not at all like he's going around saying "I want a premier education in business" and picks Florida State.

 

[Cackalacky]

I'm by no means disputing that one can get an excellent education at a school like Ohio State or Florida State. But I question that sense/motivation of anyone who turns down opportunities to go to a premier academic institution on a free ride for a school of considerably lesser distinction. When I see people defending high school athletes spurning free rides to places like ND and Stanford and opting for the likes of Alabama, Florida State, and Ohio State with the comment: "Maybe he does take academics seriously; how do you know he's not going there with the intent of excelling academically?", I employ Occam's razor: the simplest explanation is likely the correct one (i.e. they just want to cruise and not have to go to class). Are there exceptions? Sure, but those exceptions prove the rule.

What is the motivation to attend a premier academic instituion on a full athletic scholarship yet struggle to achieve academic success? Surely the Frozen Five and Golson were no less motivated to ensure they succeeded academically, so much so they chose to pursue alternate routes to the end. My point being premier academic institutions are inherently much more demanding and stressful. Not knowing this kid, its unfair to to pigenhole him as not being motivated.

 

[irishff1014]

He will probably have a very good career there. We can afford to not take a TE in this class with the depth we currently have and possibly end up with after '17.

 

[woolybug25]

They are but this isn't one that pertains to us. Like others have said we didn't really lose here.

Yeah, I wasn't going there. Just an observation that their class is getting pretty damn good.

 

[Classic Irish]

What is the motivation to attend a premier academic instituion on a full athletic scholarship yet struggle to achieve academic success? Surely the Frozen Five and Golson were no less motivated to ensure they succeeded academically, so much so they chose to pursue alternate routes to the end. My point being premier academic institutions are inherently much more demanding and stressful. Not knowing this kid, its unfair to to pigenhole him as not being motivated.

Presumably, these players wouldn't be offered by such institutions if the school felt they couldn't do the work in the classroom. In my view, struggling to achieve academic success yet ultimately holding a degree from Yale or Stanford beats cruising through school work to ultimately have a degree from Florida State---a no brainer.

So, again, you would say nothing to your child if he/she were offered a free ride to MIT, Johns Hopkins, or Stanford, but said they preferred attending LSU? If so, then we were brought up differently.

 

[BobbyMac]

Presumably, these players wouldn't be offered by such institutions if the school felt they couldn't do the work in the classroom. In my view, struggling to achieve academic success yet ultimately holding a degree from Yale or Stanford beats cruising through school work to ultimately have a degree from Florida State---a no brainer.

So, again, you would say nothing to your child if he/she were offered a free ride to MIT, Johns Hopkins, or Stanford, but said they preferred attending LSU? If so, then we were brought up differently.

This exactly Classic. When that Top 19 diploma is hanging in your office, NO ONE from State School U is going to ask, "So what was your GPA?" It's the biggest perk of going to one of the elite schools, generally, your 2.0 is better than Ohio State's 3.8, especially years down the road when you have job experience that becomes more important than your field of study and performance.

I've hired a lot of people for 2 different multi-billion companies and listing an elite school in your employee's bio is something that's very important to upper level types.


.

 

[Cackalacky]

Presumably, these players wouldn't be offered by such institutions if the school felt they couldn't do the work in the classroom. In my view, struggling to achieve academic success yet ultimately holding a degree from Yale or Stanford beats cruising through school work to ultimately have a degree from Florida State---a no brainer.

So, again, you would say nothing to your child if he/she were offered a free ride to MIT, Johns Hopkins, or Stanford, but said they preferred attending LSU? If so, then we were brought up differently.

I just disagree here.

If it were my child we would have the discussion but its not like I wouldn't respect their opinions after carefully weighing the pros and cons of each scenario with them. And presuming that kids get the offers because they are assumed to be able to do the work in the classroom is....well, a bit presumptuous. We offer numerous kids that are either behavioral problems or have been caught cheating outright or transferred for various reasons. So its not as black and white are you make it out. Some kids are just not cut from that cloth.

 

[Cackalacky]

I will also add that It's my experience that GPA, topics covered and overall depth of knowledge provided by the institution are supremely important. I am sorry but some schools no matter how prestigious may not offer value for certain degrees.

For example I received my engineering degree from the Citadel. As far as SC goes engineering jobs are EXTREMELY competitive. I landed a job with a great company but many things working in my favor included my GPA, how well I did in specific courses, who taught my courses, and many others. My interview was intense because there were several candidates for that job. After graduating I was considering a masters at Notre Dame. I chose not to because the value of that degree was less than heading straight into the work force. Also Notre Dames graduate engineering program wasn't that highly rated. I also looked at GT and VT and Clemson. All had engineering programs rated much better than ND.

So again.... If I had the choice to go to grad school at Clemson or ND I would most definitely have chosen Clemson and that doesn't make me one bit lazy or a malfeasant.

 

[Irish YJ]

I will also add that It's my experience that GPA, topics covered and overall depth of knowledge provided by the institution are supremely important. I am sorry but some schools no matter how prestigious may not offer value for certain degrees.

For example I received my engineering degree from the Citadel. As far as SC goes engineering jobs are EXTREMELY competitive. I landed a job with a great company but many things working in my favor included my GPA, how well I did in specific courses, who taught my courses, and many others. My interview was intense because there were several candidates for that job. After graduating I was considering a masters at Notre Dame. I chose not to because the value of that degree was less than heading straight into the work force. Also Notre Dames graduate engineering program wasn't that highly rated. I also looked at GT and VT and Clemson. All had engineering programs rated much better than ND.

So again.... If I had the choice to go to grad school at Clemson or ND I would most definitely have chosen Clemson and that doesn't make me one bit lazy or a malfeasant.

No it doesn't, it's making a 40 year decision.

 

[Cackalacky]

Haha

 

[Irish YJ]

Haha

Funny, but serious. You made the best, most educated, decision for yourself (and family) to maximize your earning potential. .

 

[Cackalacky]

Funny, but serious. You made the best, most educated, decision for yourself (and family) to maximize your earning potential. .

I thought you were saying no it doesnt about GPA and stuff mattering. I guess you were talking about my last sentence. Sorry .

 

[Irish YJ]

I thought you were saying no it doesnt about GPA and stuff mattering. I guess you were talking about my last sentence. Sorry .

just agreeing with you 110%
I love Irish football blindly, but wouldn't go there if I had a better alternative in terms of education and degree value.

 

[Buster Bluth]

This exactly Classic. When that Top 19 diploma is hanging in your office, NO ONE from State School U is going to ask, "So what was your GPA?" It's the biggest perk of going to one of the elite schools, generally, your 2.0 is better than Ohio State's 3.8, especially years down the road when you have job experience that becomes more important than your field of study and performance.

I've hired a lot of people for 2 different multi-billion companies and listing an elite school in your employee's bio is something that's very important to upper level types.

You don't really believe that do you?

 

[Classic Irish]

I just disagree here.

If it were my child we would have the discussion but its not like I wouldn't respect their opinions after carefully weighing the pros and cons of each scenario with them. And presuming that kids get the offers because they are assumed to be able to do the work in the classroom is....well, a bit presumptuous. We offer numerous kids that are either behavioral problems or have been caught cheating outright or transferred for various reasons. So its not as black and white are you make it out. Some kids are just not cut from that cloth.

Yes, I worked on an admissions committee at the university level, and students (both athletes and non-athletes) are assumed to be able to do the work when admitted, especially when these admission decisions take place at an elite institution. In whose interest would it be to admit a student to an elite academic institution who will clearly not make it through? Obviously, the criteria isn't foolproof since many students---both student-athletes and the students comprising the student body at large---aren't able to do the work when admitted for various reasons and fail out or leave on their own volition. It's asinine to think that students are admitted to an elite institution if the prevailing belief is that they won't make it through.

 

[Classic Irish]

I will also add that It's my experience that GPA, topics covered and overall depth of knowledge provided by the institution are supremely important. I am sorry but some schools no matter how prestigious may not offer value for certain degrees.

For example I received my engineering degree from the Citadel. As far as SC goes engineering jobs are EXTREMELY competitive. I landed a job with a great company but many things working in my favor included my GPA, how well I did in specific courses, who taught my courses, and many others. My interview was intense because there were several candidates for that job. After graduating I was considering a masters at Notre Dame. I chose not to because the value of that degree was less than heading straight into the work force. Also Notre Dames graduate engineering program wasn't that highly rated. I also looked at GT and VT and Clemson. All had engineering programs rated much better than ND.

So again.... If I had the choice to go to grad school at Clemson or ND I would most definitely have chosen Clemson and that doesn't make me one bit lazy or a malfeasant.

Graduate school is an entirely different ballgame when compared to undergraduate degrees. I agree that a graduate degree from a a particular school may be better than getting the same degree from an institution with a better overall academic reputation. I received my PhD from Ohio State which, in my field, has a better reputation than some Ivy league schools. I was referring to undergraduate degrees in my earlier posts and stick by what I said. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[Cackalacky]

The orginal comment was about offering a prospective student athlete not admitting them. I do agree that admitting should mean they are capable but receiving an offer for a full ride is not always the case. Bo Scarborough had an offer from ND and the red carpet rolled out for him on his visit but he couldnt even get cleared into Alabama until January. That is my point.

 

[Irish YJ]

I think the point is, a degree from Harvard (or any elite school), whatever GPA it is, is blindly more important that a degree from a typical state school.

I've also worked for a Fortune 500 (top 20 for a good long time), and hired hundreds in my 16 years there. If I saw a degree from an elite school, I didn't have to look much farther/deeper so long as the interview went well. My success rate was much higher with those folks.

 

[Classic Irish]

The orginal comment was about offering a prospective student athlete not admitting them. I do agree that admitting should mean they are capable but receiving an offer for a full ride is not always the case. Bo Scarborough had an offer from ND and the red carpet rolled out for him on his visit but he couldnt even get cleared into Alabama until January. That is my point.

His offer to ND was ultimately rescinded because they felt he couldn't do the work---that's my point.

I was discussing getting full rides to certain elite undergraduate programs and turning them down to attend substantially inferior ones. I think you're arguing semantics at this point. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[Classic Irish]

I think the point is, a degree from Harvard (or any elite school), whatever GPA it is, is blindly more important that a degree from a typical state school.

I've also worked for a Fortune 500 (top 20 for a good long time), and hired hundreds in my 16 years there. If I saw a degree from an elite school, I didn't have to look much farther/deeper so long as the interview went well. My success rate was much higher with those folks.

Yep, I knew candidates who were given preferential consideration based primarily on where they went to school. The rest of their application wasn't scrutinized as intensely as other candidates. That's been my experience

 

[Buster Bluth]

I think the point is, a degree from Harvard (or any elite school), whatever GPA it is, is blindly more important that a degree from a typical state school.

I've also worked for a Fortune 500 (top 20 for a good long time), and hired hundreds in my 16 years there. If I saw a degree from an elite school, I didn't have to look much farther/deeper so long as the interview went well. My success rate was much higher with those folks.

Again, that depends on what you want to do. My 8th grade science and art teachers went to Harvard and Yale, respectively, they could have gotten those jobs with a degree from a MAC school.

You don't know what other people want to do in life. That's my entire point towards Classic Irish. You don't know what degree they want, where schools' strengths vary wildly, and you don't know their profession goals.

 

[Cackalacky]

​

Again, that depends on what you want to do. My 8th grade science and art teachers went to Harvard and Yale, respectively, they could have gotten those jobs with a degree from a MAC school.

You don't know what other people want to do in life. That's my entire point towards Classic Irish. You don't know what degree they want, where schools' strengths vary wildly, and you don't know their profession goals.

Ditto. And that doesnt mean that person is any less motivated, intelligent or unworthy of acceptance into an elite school if they choose to go elsewhere.

 

[Irish YJ]

Again, that depends on what you want to do. My 8th grade science and art teachers went to Harvard and Yale, respectively, they could have gotten those jobs with a degree from a MAC school.

You don't know what other people want to do in life. That's my entire point towards Classic Irish. You don't know what degree they want, where schools' strengths vary wildly, and you don't know their profession goals.

very true. depends what motivates people, and what their goals are. I'm speaking from a corp hiring perspective.

 

[Irish YJ]

Yep, I knew candidates who were given preferential consideration based primarily on where they went to school. The rest of their application wasn't scrutinized as intensely as other candidates. That's been my experience

I think the assumption is, and it's a pretty safe and accurate assumption... is that anyone who can get in to, and graduate from, an elite university is probably a safer bet out of the gate. just like if you take 50 random ND business school graduates, and 50 random business school graduates from various state or local colleges, and you're likely to have more long term success with the ND business school graduate. Not saying it's right, it just is.

RKD. Right Kind of Degree....

 

[Classic Irish]

​

Ditto. And that doesnt mean that person is any less motivated, intelligent or unworthy of acceptance into an elite school if they choose to go elsewhere.

That's not what I said. I said that they WERE worthy of acceptance into an elite school and DID get accepted but chose to go elsewhere.

Again, we'll have to agree to disagree and just leave it at that.

 

[Classic Irish]

Again, that depends on what you want to do. My 8th grade science and art teachers went to Harvard and Yale, respectively, they could have gotten those jobs with a degree from a MAC school.

You don't know what other people want to do in life. That's my entire point towards Classic Irish. You don't know what degree they want, where schools' strengths vary wildly, and you don't know their profession goals.

Sorry, but I find it incredibly hard to believe that what motivates these student-athletes to turn down elite academic institutions to go to LSU, Alabama, and Florida State is anything other than wanting to coast through a curriculum. They know if they go to these places, they can essentially major in football. Is that true in every instance? Of course not. But to suggest that it's not the case for the majority of these high school players is a bit naive. Yes, I understand that their goal is the NFL, but we all know that the majority of these players won't sniff the NFL and that it only takes one injury to snuff out these goals for good. That's why ND has so much to offer in its recruiting (e.g. the 40-year decision, etc...). If things don't work out with the NFL, you have an excellent education to fall back on. You won't be spending the rest of your life laying bricks. And yes, I know that not all of these players from Alabama who don't go to the NFL are laying bricks, but you get my point.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Sorry, but I find it incredibly hard to believe that what motivates these student-athletes to turn down elite academic institutions to go to LSU, Alabama, and Florida State is anything other than wanting to coast through a curriculum.

Then that's on you.

They know if they go to these places, they can essentially major in football.

That happens everywhere. Everywhere. I've had enough acquaintances from Notre Dame to know it's the same there too. If that's news to you I'm sorry. The not majoring in football isn't what sets Notre Dame apart.

Is that true in every instance? Of course not. But to suggest that it's not the case for the majority of these high school players is a bit naive.

Where did I say that? I said you don't know anything about him. That's it. You are the one who persists in pointing to stereotypes.

Yes, I understand that their goal is the NFL, but we all know that the majority of these players won't sniff the NFL and that it only takes one injury to snuff out these goals for good. That's why ND has so much to offer in its recruiting (e.g. the 40-year decision, etc...). If things don't work out with the NFL, you have an excellent education to fall back on. You won't be spending the rest of your life laying bricks. And yes, I know that not all of these players from Alabama who don't go to the NFL are laying bricks, but you get my point.

This is just ridiculous. I think Jesus had an occupation on par with a brick layer, what's with your elitism?

 

[BobbyMac]

You don't really believe that do you?

At the undergraduate level? Yes, generally I do.

.