2016 Presidential Horse Race

[Ndaccountant]

Ahhhh yes.....IF WE CAN SAVE ONE CHILD....

Sorry, 644 cases in 2014 isn't enough for me to allow government to force people to immunize their kids.

644 in a country of over 300 million. Say that out loud.

While I vaccinate my kids, I'll be damned if someone forces it. Don't wanna allow them in certain schools? fine. But you also don't get to take my tax dollars.

Public schools take our money. That alone gives me the right to send my child there.


There is no "problem" here. There is no "outbreak".....644 cases.



By the way, what's lost in all this is the immigration issue that likely leads to this. While kids in other countries may appear to be more vaccinated....the ones in CA may not be and they bring over different strains.



Vaccinate your kids. But I won't support government mandates

I will ask this again.......who is protecting the liberty of the children who cannot make this choice for themselves?

Look, everyone on this site knows that I as fiscally conservative as them come, so I understand the tax argument. But I am also for protecting the liberty of those who cannot defend themselves and 644 cases are 644 cases too many for a problem that has no business existing in 2015 in the US.

 

[DonnieNarco]

I think it was Locke who said the freedom to spread disease is a God-given right.

 

[MartyIrish]

I will ask this again.......who is protecting the liberty of the children who cannot make this choice for themselves?




Look, everyone on this site knows that I as fiscally conservative as them come, so I understand the tax argument. But I am also for protecting the liberty of those who cannot defend themselves and 644 cases are 644 cases too many for a problem that has no business existing in 2015 in the US.

You mean like abortion? Yes, who is protecting their right to live? I find it ironic that some will champion these children and not those that are aborted for far more selfish reasons (not that you are one of those, that was merely a rant....LOL)


I'm simply stating that I don't agree government should be involved in making that kind of decision FOR parents. I'm not anti vax by any stretch...but let's not hand over this responsibility to our federal government because of 644 cases that could be caused by our immigration policy as much as it is our anti vax crowd.

 

[MartyIrish]

I think it was Locke who said the freedom to spread disease is a God-given right.

Assuming it's those people, specifically, spreading the disease....

 

[Ndaccountant]

You mean like abortion? Yes, who is protecting their right to live? I find it ironic that some will champion these children and not those that are aborted for far more selfish reasons (not that you are one of those, that was merely a rant....LOL)


I'm simply stating that I don't agree government should be involved in making that kind of decision FOR parents. I'm not anti vax by any stretch...but let's not hand over this responsibility to our federal government because of 644 cases that could be caused by our immigration policy as much as it is our anti vax crowd.

Understand your stance, but even if the immigration policy were to blame, it would still be smart to have a back up plan, right? Just like how companies have servers in different locations to protect against an accident in one location.

I'm simply stating that I don't agree government should be involved in making that kind of decision FOR parents.

I guess I just approach it as there is no decision, since the liberty of the child is what's at stake, not the liberty of the parents (and totally agree on the abortion).

 

[GATTACA!]

Ahhhh yes.....IF WE CAN SAVE ONE CHILD....

Sorry, 644 cases in 2014 isn't enough for me to allow government to force people to immunize their kids.

644 in a country of over 300 million. Say that out loud.

While I vaccinate my kids, I'll be damned if someone forces it. Don't wanna allow them in certain schools? fine. But you also don't get to take my tax dollars.

Public schools take our money. That alone gives me the right to send my child there.


There is no "problem" here. There is no "outbreak".....644 cases.



By the way, what's lost in all this is the immigration issue that likely leads to this. While kids in other countries may appear to be more vaccinated....the ones in CA may not be and they bring over different strains.



Vaccinate your kids. But I won't support government mandates

There are 644 cases right now because most rational people are vaccinated. As people continue to choose not to vaccinate their kids 644 turns into 1021 then 2209 then 6098....thats how you start a fucking outbreak.

 

[MartyIrish]

There are 644 cases right now because most rational people are vaccinated. As people continue to choose not to vaccinate their kids 644 turns into 1021 then 2209 then 6098....thats how you start a fucking outbreak.

I actually think that number will go down as more and more people are educated.


There are far more rational people than non rational people on this issue

 

[pkt77242]

Ahhhh yes.....IF WE CAN SAVE ONE CHILD....

Sorry, 644 cases in 2014 isn't enough for me to allow government to force people to immunize their kids.

644 in a country of over 300 million. Say that out loud.

While I vaccinate my kids, I'll be damned if someone forces it. Don't wanna allow them in certain schools? fine. But you also don't get to take my tax dollars.

Public schools take our money. That alone gives me the right to send my child there.


There is no "problem" here. There is no "outbreak".....644 cases.



By the way, what's lost in all this is the immigration issue that likely leads to this. While kids in other countries may appear to be more vaccinated....the ones in CA may not be and they bring over different strains.



Vaccinate your kids. But I won't support government mandates

LOL. Where is your proof in that? Now you are just making shit up. The real problem is unvaccinated American children who go to other countries, contract it and then come back and cause the outbreak. Nice, now we are blaming the immigrants. While California is part of the problem, Colorado holds the title for lowest percent of individuals vaccinated in the US, I believe it is just over 80%.

 

[MartyIrish]

LOL. Where is your proof in that? Now you are just making shit up. The real problem is unvaccinated American children who go to other countries, contract it and then come back and cause the outbreak. Nice, now we are blaming the immigrants. While California is part of the problem, Colorado holds the title for lowest percent of individuals vaccinated in the US, I believe it is just over 80%.

Where is you proof that American children are causing this. Millions of kids from all over the world visit Disney.

The point is, nobody even bats an eye. We aren't even discussing the fact that it very well could be coming from a visitor or immigrant...are you saying that's out of the realm of possibility?

Are you saying that the millions of undocumented immigrants in this country are fully vaccinated and not a part of the problem?

I'm simply saying take a look. It could be apart of the issue.

 

[DonnieNarco]

When in doubt, blame immigrants.

 

[RDU Irish]

I will ask this again.......who is protecting the liberty of the children who cannot make this choice for themselves?

Look, everyone on this site knows that I as fiscally conservative as them come, so I understand the tax argument. But I am also for protecting the liberty of those who cannot defend themselves and 644 cases are 644 cases too many for a problem that has no business existing in 2015 in the US.

THEIR F-ING PARENTS!! If we want to get serious about taking kids away from negligent parents that is another issue.

I heard a survey concluded 75% of Democrats and 65% of Republicans think vaccines are safe. The reporter thought this was great, big majority rules! I see it differently, 1/4th of Dems and 1/3rd of Reps are misguided idiots. That is a huge percentage of the population to be so highly influenced by Jenny McCarthy's science talk.

 

[MartyIrish]

When in doubt, blame immigrants.

When you need votes...protect them

 

[pkt77242]

You mean like abortion? Yes, who is protecting their right to live? I find it ironic that some will champion these children and not those that are aborted for far more selfish reasons (not that you are one of those, that was merely a rant....LOL)


I'm simply stating that I don't agree government should be involved in making that kind of decision FOR parents. I'm not anti vax by any stretch...but let's not hand over this responsibility to our federal government because of 644 cases that could be caused by our immigration policy as much as it is our anti vax crowd.

Bullshit. Again, that isn't why we get outbreaks, we get outbreaks usually because an un-vaccinated American child goes to a country where it is still a problem and then comes back with it and spreads it.

Is there a link between the measles outbreak and illegal immigration? - The Washington Post

 

[pkt77242]

Where is you proof that American children are causing this. Millions of kids from all over the world visit Disney.

The point is, nobody even bats an eye. We aren't even discussing the fact that it very well could be coming from a visitor or immigrant...are you saying that's out of the realm of possibility?

Are you saying that the millions of undocumented immigrants in this country are fully vaccinated and not a part of the problem?

I'm simply saying take a look. It could be apart of the issue.

The CDC has never traced a measles outbreak back to illegal immigration. We have traced it back to US citizens traveling abroad, and legal visitors from other countries. What you and some people on the right are doing is fear mongering. That is the truth. You make accusations without proof and information. That is a problem.

 

[GATTACA!]

When you need votes...protect them

 

[DonnieNarco]

.

 

[MartyIrish]

Bullshit. Again, that isn't why we get outbreaks, we get outbreaks usually because an un-vaccinated American child goes to a country where it is still a problem and then comes back with it and spreads it.

Is there a link between the measles outbreak and illegal immigration? - The Washington Post

“genotype of the virus that’s associated with the Disneyland outbreak is causing outbreaks in 14 different countries around the world.” She specifically mentioned Indonesia, India and Dubai as possible sources that were under investigation, but she emphasized that “we assume that someone got infected overseas, visited the parks and spread the disease to others.”



In other words, an American brought the disease back, not that an illegal immigrant brought it in.




WHAT? That is not AT ALL what that lady said. Good lord. That person that was "infected overseas" could've been from said country as well. Nice work WaPo. And I'll trust Ben Carson over some beat writer trying to get his 15mins...any day.


Again...it's possible. If anything, this piece simply states they don't know yet.

 

[MartyIrish]

The CDC has never traced a measles outbreak back to illegal immigration. We have traced it back to US citizens traveling abroad, and legal visitors from other countries. What you and some people on the right are doing is fear mongering. That is the truth. You make accusations without proof and information. That is a problem.

could be vistors from other countries...not just illegals.

 

[MartyIrish]

.

you're doing it wrong.

nobody is denying that vaccines work. The argument is if government should make the determination for parents

 

[wizards8507]

Apparently this thread is for people too thick in the skull to notice the nuance between "ABC is a good idea" and "we should force everybody to do ABC." I'll redirect my energies back towards Whiskey's political philosophy thread.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

LOL. What's wrong Mr. Constitution? Don't like what the document you always bring up actually says?

Your choice to eat at a fast food restaurant does not make anyone else fat or unhealthy. Not the same as refusing to be vaccinated and advancing the notion that your "liberty" is more important that the "general welfare" of others in your community.

Aren't you sick of the Constitution getting in the way of all the things you'd love to see big government do in the US?

As for vaccinations: you'll note I didn't say whether I was for or against. All I said was that based on our laws it should be the parents' decision, not the government's.

 

[RDU Irish]

What??? I have no idea how these two things are similar and I honestly don't really understand your point.

Don't you need to claim negligence to push parents out of the way and force something on their kid? Or do you think government owns everyone?


In regards to the pediatricians, I'm not sure you understand how they roll out vaccinations.

And you do? It is likely basic operations management. I can't wait to hear about vaccine shortages in the next few weeks.

Say your supplier restocks you weekly, you see 5-10 first year checks per week, with 0 to 4 of them declining vaccines on average. So you keep a dozen on hand, restocking eight or so on average. Now lets those 2 per week on average that declined vaccines for the last ten years try to get their vaccines all of the sudden. That is one thousand extra vaccines needed. Multiply by thousands of pediatric practices and it gets kind of easy to see a shortage. How long does it take for the manufacturer to increase production to meet the temporary spike in demand and the product to work its way through the system to the end patient?

 

[pkt77242]

“genotype of the virus that’s associated with the Disneyland outbreak is causing outbreaks in 14 different countries around the world.” She specifically mentioned Indonesia, India and Dubai as possible sources that were under investigation, but she emphasized that “we assume that someone got infected overseas, visited the parks and spread the disease to others.”



In other words, an American brought the disease back, not that an illegal immigrant brought it in.




WHAT? That is not AT ALL what that lady said. Good lord. That person that was "infected overseas" could've been from said country as well. Nice work WaPo. And I'll trust Ben Carson over some beat writer trying to get his 15mins...any day.


Again...it's possible. If anything, this piece simply states they don't know yet.

They haven't determined this outbreak yet, but with all of the previous ones, none have come from illegal immigration. You can believe in your fantasy world that illegal immigrants are causing it but the likelihood is extremely low that it was caused by it.

 

[RDU Irish]

Apparently this thread is for people too thick in the skull to notice the nuance between "ABC is a good idea" and "we should force everybody to do ABC." I'll redirect my energies back towards Whiskey's political philosophy thread.

I'll quote this great point so it doesn't get lost as last post of the previous page.

Scares me how easily so many people are fear mongered in to letting government run their lives.

 

[GATTACA!]

Apparently this thread is for people too thick in the skull to notice the nuance between "ABC is a good idea" and "we should force everybody to do ABC." I'll redirect my energies back towards Whiskey's political philosophy thread.

Taking a jog in the morning instead of eating a breakfast sandwich from McDonalds is a good idea and good for you. The government doesn't enforce you to follow this every morning because if you don't the only one that gets fat and clogs their arteries is YOU.

Second hand smoke is bad. That is why the government has made it illegal to smoke in public places. While it is your choice to smoke and get yourself cancer, it IS NOT legal for you to put others at risk because of YOUR decision.

This is the exact same situation with vaccines except there is no reasonable way to expect unvaccinated individuals to avoid social interactions where they negatively affect the other innocent people around them

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Apparently this thread is for people too thick in the skull to notice the nuance between "ABC is a good idea" and "we should force everybody to do ABC." I'll redirect my energies back towards Whiskey's political philosophy thread.

There we go.

 

[DonnieNarco]

Ben Carson also believes in creationism and is a Seventh Day Adventist so I'll hold back on listening to him.

 

[pkt77242]

I'll quote this great point so it doesn't get lost as last post of the previous page.

Scares me how easily so many people are fear mongered in to letting government run their lives.

I am only attacking MartyIrish for blaming immigrants. You have had good points. I think that they should remove religious and personal belief exemptions from schools for vaccines (health exemptions should still exist, a child with cancer can't get the vaccine). Also hold parents liable for damages if their unvaccinated child spreads it. Plus our elected leaders should be encouraging people to get vaccinated. What Rand Paul did was wrong both as an elected official and as a medical doctor. He knows better then to say shit like that.

 

[Ndaccountant]

THEIR F-ING PARENTS!! If we want to get serious about taking kids away from negligent parents that is another issue.

I heard a survey concluded 75% of Democrats and 65% of Republicans think vaccines are safe. The reporter thought this was great, big majority rules! I see it differently, 1/4th of Dems and 1/3rd of Reps are misguided idiots. That is a huge percentage of the population to be so highly influenced by Jenny McCarthy's science talk.

I think that stat proves my point.

There are countless idiots out there that do countless stupid things. This includes doing stupid things with kids that could potentially mess them up. Everyone has done something stupid w/r/t their kids, me included. But often these stupid things have a negligible impact on them and/or are incredibly difficult to control.

But this thing is neither. It isn't difficult to control given that the overwhelming number of children are born in hospitals and not getting the vaccines put them at a health risk.

Kids are put in a situation where they rely enough on the parent lottery when it comes to educational focus, the emotional stability of the family, etc. Why should we, as Americans, allow this lottery to extend to the likelihood of catching entirely preventable disease?

 

[pkt77242]

Taking a jog in the morning instead of eating a breakfast sandwich from McDonalds is a good idea and good for you. The government doesn't enforce you to follow this every morning because if you don't the only one that gets fat and clogs their arteries is YOU.

Second hand smoke is bad. That is why the government has made it illegal to smoke in public places. While it is your choice to smoke and get yourself cancer, it IS NOT legal for you to put others at risk because of YOUR decision.

This is the exact same situation with vaccines except there is no reasonable way to expect unvaccinated individuals to avoid social interactions where they negatively affect the other innocent people around them

This right here is one of the most important points in the thread. If you want to drive you have to have insurance. If you want to go to school, or go to doctors offices or the grocery store or go to disneyland (basically interact with people) you should have to be vaccinated (unless you can't for medical reasons). If you want your child to sit in their house and not leave it then fine, you don't have to be vaccinated.