Will 2012 be the peak of the Kelly era?

[gkIrish]

Koon said undefeated. No, I don't think there's "any chance" we beat Florida State AND Northwestern AND Arizona State even with those players.

My bad....but I still think it's a bit exaggerated to say "no chance." Hell KVR alone may have been enough against FSU and NW. And the ASU game was one play away multiple times from being a ND lead.

 

[stlnd01]

KVR might have been the difference against FSU. When Winston started picking us apart in the second half, it would have been nice to have our best cover corner eligible. Maybe his presence would have allowed us to bring more heat on Northwestern's QB, too (which generally forced him into more errors than when we laid back in a soft zone and rushed three or four).
But it's hard to point to specific plays where he would have been the difference between us winning and losing.
Ishaq and DD would have had to play better than they ever have to be the difference between a win and a loss. Not saying that's impossible, but the marginal difference between them and their replacements doesn't seem to be big enough to change the outcome of any of the games we lost. It usually isn't for individual college football players, aside from quarterbacks and the occasional disruptive pass rusher.

 

[koonja]

I promise I won't argue this past this post, but it's absurd to me to think that having DD, KVR, and Ishaq this year wouldn't have made up the difference in at least the NW and FSU game. How quickly we forget in a what have you done for me lately league.

NW, no comment. Self explanatory. FSU, you don't think having an elite, lockdown corner would have helped on the 2nd half with an NFl rush end going after Winston? Not to mention having a legit #1 at WR to go along with Fuller who IMO is himself close to being a #1? DD would have abused Darby. Y'all trippin.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Probably the biggest overreaction I've seen in a while. To say we have 0 chance at being undefeated if those 3 were on the team is ridic.

ND would have beaten FSU. They basically did without the 3 aformentioned future NFL players. NW, same story. ASU is the only game that would have been in question, as I'm not sure their presence would have made the difference. We were totally out schemed and out Golson'd that game.

And yeah, Fuller's great. But DD is very arguably better (IMO, DD > Fuller, and I'm all in on Fuller). Know what's better than ONE great WR? Two, with one on each side.

HAHAHA. Based on what?!

DD Career: 80 receptions for 1235 yards and 7 TDs
Fuller Career: 67 receptions for 1013 yards and 14 TDs

Yea, "very arguably better." They average almost the same yards per catch and Fuller has twice as many TDs. Each had a year with Rees and with Golson so steer clear of that argument. DD would've been a welcomed addition to this year's WR group and w/o a doubt would've contributed. But he's not a game changer like Floyd, etc were. Fuller has been a boss this year and it's insane to say DD is better.

 

[irishff1014]

I promise I won't argue this past this post, but it's absurd to me to think that having DD, KVR, and Ishaq this year wouldn't have made up the difference in at least the NW and FSU game. How quickly we forget in a what have you done for me lately league.

NW, no comment. Self explanatory. FSU, you don't think having an elite, lockdown corner would have helped on the 2nd half with an NFl rush end going after Winston? Not to mention having a legit #1 at WR to go along with Fuller who IMO is himself close to being a #1? DD would have abused Darby. Y'all trippin.

The only point i am going to make on this is THEY DD,Ishaq,KVR shouldn't have put there selves in the position to be suspended.

 

[koonja]

HAHAHA. Based on what?!

DD Career: 80 receptions for 1235 yards and 7 TDs
Fuller Career: 67 receptions for 1013 yards and 14 TDs

Yea, "very arguably better." They average almost the same yards per catch and Fuller has twice as many TDs. Each had a year with Rees and with Golson so steer clear of that argument. DD would've been a welcomed addition to this year's WR group and w/o a doubt would've contributed. But he's not a game changer like Floyd, etc were. Fuller has been a boss this year and it's insane to say DD is better.

If DD comes back rather than go to the NFL this year, remember this post. In 2015, DD will eat first.

 

[Irish Insanity]

If DD comes back rather than go to the NFL this year, remember this post. In 2015, DD will eat first.

Will he be top 3 in CFB?

 

[BleedBlueGold]

If DD comes back rather than go to the NFL this year, remember this post. In 2015, DD will eat first.

Bravo. You make a claim. I refute it with stats. You comeback with another opinion that is an "if" based scenario.

I'm not saying he's not a good WR. But he's not light years ahead of Fuller in production. Fuller is avg 6 catches for 80 yards and 1 TD every game this year. He's on pace for a two-year total of 85 career receptions, 1253 career yards, and 17 career TDs. In two full seasons, that's more receptions, more yardage, and more TDs than DD had in his first two full seasons. Yet you're convinced that DD is Michael Floyd's clone. Ok.

 

[koonja]

Bravo. You make a claim. I refute it with stats. You comeback with another opinion that is an "if" based scenario.

I'm not saying he's not a good WR. But he's not light years ahead of Fuller in production. Fuller is avg 6 catches for 80 yards and 1 TD every game this year. He's on pace for 85 career receptions, 1253 career yards, and 17 career TDs. In two full seasons, that's more receptions, more yardage, and more TDs than DD. Yet you're convinced that DD is Michael Floyd's clone. Ok.

There wasn't much for me to say in the name of stats, when your stats hardly separated Fuller from DD. In fact, in 2 of your 3 categories, DD was superior to Fuller.

I don't care that much about production. Fuller's been force fed the ball right now because he's pretty much all we have.

DD's bigger, stronger, and has superior hands. Fuller has speed and I love Fuller, but that's about it IMO. DD's no slouch in the speed department (albeit not Fuller).

 

[ThePiombino]

HAHAHA. Based on what?!

DD Career: 80 receptions for 1235 yards and 7 TDs
Fuller Career: 67 receptions for 1013 yards and 14 TDs

Yea, "very arguably better." They average almost the same yards per catch and Fuller has twice as many TDs. Each had a year with Rees and with Golson so steer clear of that argument. DD would've been a welcomed addition to this year's WR group and w/o a doubt would've contributed. But he's not a game changer like Floyd, etc were. Fuller has been a boss this year and it's insane to say DD is better.

Flawed logic because 2014 Golson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2012 Golson in terms of passing. Clearly not turnovers...

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

What? So Kelly is at fault for Golson being careless when running? Kelly is at fault for CRob not making a catch and the ball floating right to a DB? Kelly is at fault for a LT to get beat allowing Golson to be hit blind side, only for the ball to hit another OL's head and into a defenders hands?

Tell me how Pike and Collaros were screwed in Kelly's system? They played just fine.

You didn't answer my question. On what evidence are you basing your opinion that Zaire is NOT a "damn good QB"?


Exactly, and Golson obviously can't handle it or he wouldn't be making so many of those "WTF!?" decisions and mistakes. He has all the physical gifts in the world (except size), but I just don't think he's mentally grasping the position.

Evidence? How often do you see a redshirt freshman QB with no experience excel in any level of competition. Rarely. To compound the inexperience, Zaire would have to run an offense that seems so random and complicated.

Mentally grasped? What does that mean? The main reason why I think Golson is a damn good QB is that he plays extremely well under pressure. Stats are for chumps. When the game is on the line, it has been a while, McDougal, since I have felt confident that our QB can handle pressure. FSU, Stanford...even against Bama...he played well. He is no shrinking violet.

Turnovers? Think about it. Every year under Bkelly we have had turnover issues...the only year we didn't , 2012, we played offense that is an antithesis of a Kelly offense. Is that a coincidence? Is it a coincidence that all the QBs we have had under Kelly have had issues with turnovers? What is the common element? If you want the explosive chunk plays, you better expect some mindf'ing screw ups.

In the end, we are one of those teams that employs a gimmick offense. One week we can beat anybody. The next week, we beat ourselves. Its a crap shoot with Kelly and will always be...unless he modifies his offensive approach.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

There wasn't much for me to say in the name of stats, when your stats hardly separated Fuller from DD. In fact, in 2 of your 3 categories, DD was superior to Fuller.

Fuller hasn't finished out the season. There are still three games left for him to catch up and/or exceed DD's production over a two-year period. If you read the post, I averaged out Fuller's projected stats. He should surpass DD in all three of those categories, straight dominating the TD category. DD is hardly superior.

I don't care that much about production. Fuller's been force fed the ball right now because he's pretty much all we have.

You don't care that much about production? Then what do you care about? When comparing these two players, I'm not sure what else to use other than production. Fuller isn't force fed anymore than DD was the past two seasons.

DD's bigger, stronger, and has superior hands. Fuller has speed and I love Fuller, but that's about it IMO. DD's no slouch in the speed department (albeit not Fuller).

Can't argue that, but it doesn't prove that DD is better. He just may have more upside. And the truth is, this is probably all moot, because I'm not convinced he comes back next year.

 

[wizards8507]

Evidence? How often do you see a redshirt freshman QB with no experience excel in any level of competition.

Um, all the time.

Question: Should we have started Tommy Rees every game in 2012? After all, "how often do you see a redshirt freshman QB with no experience excel in any level of competition?"

Every single player who has ever played a meaningful snap has done so "with no experience." At some point, Malik WILL be the starter and he'll have no experience. What's the difference if he's a redshirt freshman with no experience now or a redshirt junior with no experience in two years? Further, if he DID get some meaningful snaps this year, the 2016 version of Malik would be a redshirt junior WITH experience.

Your plan for Malik:
2014 - Bench
2015 - Bench
2016 - No Experience
2017 - 1 year experience

My plan for Malik:
2014 - No experience
2015 - One year experience
2016 - Two years experience
2017 - Three years experience

If you want the explosive chunk plays, you better expect some mindf'ing screw ups.

If that's the linchpin of your argument then we'll never agree. I will never buy the argument that we somehow HAVE TO commit dumbass turnovers in order to also make big plays. Risk and reward doesn't work that way in football and it's not like Golson is throwing interceptions on 80 yard bombs. He's throwing interceptions by hitting his linemen in the back of the head and fumbling the football because he tries to break his fall while palming it. Those things are not necessary conditions to a big-play offense.

 

[pkt77242]

Evidence? How often do you see a redshirt freshman QB with no experience excel in any level of competition. Rarely. To compound the inexperience, Zaire would have to run an offense that seems so random and complicated.

Mentally grasped? What does that mean? The main reason why I think Golson is a damn good QB is that he plays extremely well under pressure. Stats are for chumps. When the game is on the line, it has been a while, McDougal, since I have felt confident that our QB can handle pressure. FSU, Stanford...even against Bama...he played well. He is no shrinking violet.

Turnovers? Think about it. Every year under Bkelly we have had turnover issues...the only year we didn't , 2012, we played offense that is an antithesis of a Kelly offense. Is that a coincidence? Is it a coincidence that all the QBs we have had under Kelly have had issues with turnovers? What is the common element? If you want the explosive chunk plays, you better expect some mindf'ing screw ups.

In the end, we are one of those teams that employs a gimmick offense. One week we can beat anybody. The next week, we beat ourselves. Its a crap shoot with Kelly and will always be...unless he modifies his offensive approach.

Do I really need to go through and start listing the redshirt freshmen QBs in recent years that have played well, it is much higher than you think (not to say that Malik will play well or that all RS freshmen QBs play well but that QBs are coming in more prepared then ever).

The whole to make great plays you must have a ton of screw ups? Seriously, there are many QBs out there who make great plays but aren't turning it over twice a game on average.

So stats are for chumps but I should trust your gut feeling. LOL.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Fuller hasn't finished out the season. There are still three games left for him to catch up and/or exceed DD's production over a two-year period. If you read the post, I averaged out Fuller's projected stats. He should surpass DD in all three of those categories, straight dominating the TD category. DD is hardly superior.



You don't care that much about production? Then what do you care about? When comparing these two players, I'm not sure what else to use other than production. Fuller isn't force fed anymore than DD was the past two seasons.



Can't argue that, but it doesn't prove that DD is better. He just may have more upside. And the truth is, this is probably all moot, because I'm not convinced he comes back next year.

Dude, WR production =/ how good a WR is. It's a stupid argument anyway, because they're both good and each would have made the other better if they'd gotten the chance to play together this year, it's definitely not a 0 sum game.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Flawed logic because 2014 Golson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2012 Golson in terms of passing. Clearly not turnovers...

Flawed logic because there isn't a single thing outside of our HC and Golson himself that is the same from 2012 to 2014

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Dude, WR production =/ how good a WR is. It's a stupid argument anyway, because they're both good and each would have made the other better if they'd gotten the chance to play together this year, it's definitely not a 0 sum game.

Thank's for your input that has nothing to do with the original OP, which was that Koon said DD>>>>>>>>>Fuller. Then said he doesn't care about production. Aside from intangibles, how else do you compare two WR who play in the same system with the same QBs (just in different years)? It's a no-brainer that they're both good and they would have been great together this year. But that's not the debate. I simply took a stance that Fuller is better than DD and used production as evidence to support my claim.

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

Um, all the time.

Question: Should we have started Tommy Rees every game in 2012? After all, "how often do you see a redshirt freshman QB with no experience excel in any level of competition?"

Every single player who has ever played a meaningful snap has done so "with no experience." At some point, Malik WILL be the starter and he'll have no experience. What's the difference if he's a redshirt freshman with no experience now or a redshirt junior with no experience in two years? Further, if he DID get some meaningful snaps this year, the 2016 version of Malik would be a redshirt junior WITH experience.

Your plan for Malik:
2014 - Bench
2015 - Bench
2016 - No Experience
2017 - 1 year experience

My plan for Malik:
2014 - No experience
2015 - One year experience
2016 - Two years experience
2017 - Three years experience


If that's the linchpin of your argument then we'll never agree. I will never buy the argument that we somehow HAVE TO commit dumbass turnovers in order to also make big plays. Risk and reward doesn't work that way in football and it's not like Golson is throwing interceptions on 80 yard bombs. He's throwing interceptions by hitting his linemen in the back of the head and fumbling the football because he tries to break his fall while palming it. Those things are not necessary conditions to a big-play offense.

My goodness...{retracted} misread the year. The reason why Rees didn't start is because the obvious limitations.

Of course, it is wise to give backups experience; but when you are struggling with your starter and you are trying to win games, it makes no sense to stick in the backup to gain experience. There is a time and place for it...and considering we haven't had much garbage time, there hasn't been a time and place this year for Malik to get the reps.

If you are arguing from the point of accountability, sure...put Malik in a series or two...but just to gain experience, hell no.

Are you contending Kelly's offense is not a high risk high reward offense?

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

Do I really need to go through and start listing the redshirt freshmen QBs in recent years that have played well, it is much higher than you think (not to say that Malik will play well or that all RS freshmen QBs play well but that QBs are coming in more prepared then ever).

The whole to make great plays you must have a ton of screw ups? Seriously, there are many QBs out there who make great plays but aren't turning it over twice a game on average.

So stats are for chumps but I should trust your gut feeling. LOL.

If you think it is wise to play redshirt freshmen QB with no experience over Golson, you are more riverboat than Kelly.

Kelly's style of offense prefers the pass over the run...prefers match ups over percentages..these preferences mean more risk...the more risk the higher the chance for screwing up things. What am I missing?

 

[wizards8507]

Kelly's style of offense prefers the pass over the run...prefers match ups over percentages..these preferences mean more risk...the more risk the higher the chance for screwing up things. What am I missing?

What you're missing is the "reward." There's no such thing as a "high risk, high reward" offense. All we are is a high risk offense. A touchdown is worth six points whether you sling the ball all over the field or run it between the tackles. There's no "reward" for deviating from the percentages.

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

What you're missing is the "reward." There's no such thing as a "high risk, high reward" offense. All we are is a high risk offense. A touchdown is worth six points whether you sling the ball all over the field or run it between the tackles. There's no "reward" for deviating from the percentages.

Well, the high reward in my thinking is the "chunk" plays and the quick strike.

 

[wizards8507]

Well, the high reward in my thinking is the "chunk" plays and the quick strike.

I might buy that except "quick strike" is hardly a reward when the defense you're putting back out on the field is decimated with injuries and virtually no leadership.

 

[philipm31]

Oh for the love of Pete. You do realize we'd have, what, three wins this year if not for Golson? That the only reason we came back against Arizona State and didn't lose by two scores to Northwestern was Golson? You want to throw Zaire in there against Louisville and USC? Really?
Yes, he's made some sloppy mistakes. Obviously he needs to take better care of the football when he's running and check out of throwing into bad spots now and then. But most of his mistakes are mistakes of aggressiveness, and a lot of his picks have involved poor blocking or bonehead plays by receivers. This is not Tommy Rees throwing it straight at some safety he never saw. It's balls getting tipped at the line. Golson getting hit as he throws. Passes bouncing off Corey Robinson's chest and into a D back's waiting arms.
He's not all blameless, but it's all things that can be fixed. And Golson's upside is enormous.

My point is simple. Golson will have a lot more competition next spring for the starting job. I think Zaire has a window now and if he outperforms EG, then he should get a good look next season.

Of course, not having depth at the QB spot really kills any team. Look at what Kiel is doing at Cincinnati and think about what he might have been able to do in games where EG was just playing so poorly. We would have had a good backup plan. If you want to say that EG was the reason we came back in those games, fine, but he was ALSO the reason we trailed in every one of those games. I mean, really, how many pick sixes have we had this year? 3 in the last month, at least. One was a tipped pass, I believe. The other two were just EG's fault. But again, I feel that there should be an open competition for the starting spot next spring. And if Zaire, or anyone else outperforms EG, then all the better, because then we have a super-experienced backup QB, like we did two years ago.

 

[ickythump1225]

My point is simple. Golson will have a lot more competition next spring for the starting job. I think Zaire has a window now and if he outperforms EG, then he should get a good look next season.

The QB competition should definitely be open but it should always be open in the spring. If EG, as a 5th year player with 2 seasons of starting under his belt, can't hold of MZ he should sit. BK should play whoever gives us the best chance to win.

 

[Cackalacky]

What you're missing is the "reward." There's no such thing as a "high risk, high reward" offense. All we are is a high risk offense. A touchdown is worth six points whether you sling the ball all over the field or run it between the tackles. There's no "reward" for deviating from the percentages.

There are definite rewards for scoring quickly or for eating up the clock. Depends on what's going on in the game. Versatile schemes offer a mix of both in order to give you the best chance of winning. Some games are grinds while others are shootouts. The rewards come with being able to adjust and exert your will on the game.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

In short, I don't know.


Sent via tapatalk

 

[Bluto]

Seems appropriate considering the train of thought in these threads:

Shipwrecked in the Eighties - YouTube

 

[stlnd01]

But again, I feel that there should be an open competition for the starting spot next spring. And if Zaire, or anyone else outperforms EG, then all the better, because then we have a super-experienced backup QB, like we did two years ago.

I'm all for an open competition every spring. Zaire pushed Golson last year. Maybe next year he beats him. But there seems to be an argument being made by some that Zaire should be playing over Golson right now. I think that's a recipe for finishing this season 7-6.

 

[drake29]

If I have to watch Everett Golson attempt to run one more read option I'm going to puke. He can't do it BK, stop calling it. What happened to the pistol? Last year we ran out of it effectively. Can EG not handle it? I dunno guys, I think if I have to watch one more 4 loss season with Kelly I'm going to start catching myself checking the hot board for up and coming head coaches. Already have my eye on that cat in East Lansing and his badass defensive coordinator.

 

[IrishinSyria]

If I have to watch Everett Golson attempt to run one more read option I'm going to puke. He can't do it BK, stop calling it. What happened to the pistol? Last year we ran out of it effectively. Can EG not handle it? I dunno guys, I think if I have to watch one more 4 loss season with Kelly I'm going to start catching myself checking the hot board for up and coming head coaches. Already have my eye on that cat in East Lansing and his badass defensive coordinator.

You had to see this coming when you decided to post that...


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/P7LK6m-Mtnk?list=UUAMR05qSc5mfhVx20fDyAoQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>