Teens beat homeless men to death

Ndaccountant

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My brother in law works for a hospital that saw a homeless man killed by two teens. Apparently the homeless man was passed out under a tree and the two boys found him unresponsive, beat him (he died two days later) and robbed him.
 

Whiskeyjack

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What follows is an editorial review for Charles Murray's Coming Apart:

Since the advent of "Occupy Wall Street," there has been a tendency to assume that only the Left worries about inequality in America. Charles Murray's Coming Apart shows that conservatives, too, need to be concerned.

This is an immensely important and utterly gripping book. It deserves to be as much talked about as Murray's most controversial work (co-authored with Richard J. Herrnstein), The Bell Curve. Quite unjustly, that book was anathematized as "racist" because it pointed out that, on average, African-Americans had lower IQ scores than white Americans.

No doubt the same politically correct critics will complain about this book, because it is almost entirely devoted to the problem of social polarization within "white America." They will have to ignore one of Coming Apart's most surprising findings: that race is not a significant determinant of social polarization in today's America. It is class that really matters.

Murray meticulously chronicles and measures the emergence of two wholly distinct classes: a new upper class, first identified in The Bell Curve as "the cognitive elite," and a new "lower class," which he is too polite to give a name. And he vividly localizes his argument by imagining two emblematic communities: Belmont, where everyone has at least one college degree, and Fishtown, where no one has any. (Read: Tonyville and Trashtown.)

The key point is that the four great social trends of the past half-century--the decline of marriage, of the work ethic, of respect for the law and of religious observance--have affected Fishtown much more than Belmont. As a consequence, the traditional bonds of civil society have atrophied in Fishtown. And that, Murray concludes, is why people there are so very unhappy--and dysfunctional.

What can be done to reunite these two classes? Murray is dismissive of the standard liberal prescription of higher taxes on the rich and higher spending on the poor. As he points out, there could hardly be a worse moment to try to import the European welfare state, just as that system suffers fiscal collapse in its continent of origin.

What the country needs is not an even larger federal government but a kind of civic Great Awakening--a return to the republic's original foundations of family, vocation, community, and faith.

Coming Apart is a model of rigorous sociological inquiry, yet it is also highly readable. After the chronic incoherence of Occupy Wall Street, it comes as a blessed relief. Every American should read it. Too bad only the cognitive elite will.
 

GoIrish41

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We all have our days when we see some random thing and think the world is heading to hell in a hand basket.

Maybe you are right, but it does seem less random these days doesn't it? People walking into movie theaters and elementary schools and opening fire on people, mothers drowning their babies in bathtubs, the dude who held those young girls in his basement for years ... the list goes on and on. I always tell myself that I have heard it all ... that there could not possibly be something that could be as bad as what I'm hearing on the news, and then, wham! there are a few teenagers who have so much disregard for human life that they bash the heads of sleeping homeless people with cider blocks. How does the thought to do that even come into a person's head? Maybe the world has always been that sick and we just hear about it more often because of communications technology, but there are some twisted motherfuckers in this world.
 

Rack Em

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Maybe you are right, but it does seem less random these days doesn't it? People walking into movie theaters and elementary schools and opening fire on people, mothers drowning their babies in bathtubs, the dude who held those young girls in his basement for years ... the list goes on and on. I always tell myself that I have heard it all ... that there could not possibly be something that could be as bad as what I'm hearing on the news, and then, wham! there are a few teenagers who have so much disregard for human life that they bash the heads of sleeping homeless people with cider blocks. How does the thought to do that even come into a person's head? Maybe the world has always been that sick and we just hear about it more often because of communications technology, but there are some twisted motherfuckers in this world.

Thanks Obama!
 
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Maybe you are right, but it does seem less random these days doesn't it? People walking into movie theaters and elementary schools and opening fire on people, mothers drowning their babies in bathtubs, the dude who held those young girls in his basement for years ... the list goes on and on. I always tell myself that I have heard it all ... that there could not possibly be something that could be as bad as what I'm hearing on the news, and then, wham! there are a few teenagers who have so much disregard for human life that they bash the heads of sleeping homeless people with cider blocks. How does the thought to do that even come into a person's head? Maybe the world has always been that sick and we just hear about it more often because of communications technology, but there are some twisted motherfuckers in this world.

I don't think the rate of twisted shit is higher than its been in the past 30 years.

But I do think that in turbulent times people find these stories and then convince themselves that the world is screwed.
 

NDFan4Life

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Thanks, Whiskey.

That sounds like a very interesting read. In his book "America the Beautiful", Ben Carson has said the same thing.

We, as a country, need to return to the values that shaped our past and that will shape our future.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I don't think the rate of twisted shit is higher than its been in the past 30 years.

But I do think that in turbulent times people find these stories and then convince themselves that the world is screwed.

It's easy for conservatives to attribute such things to cultural decline, or for Progressives to dismiss this as typical violence that simply didn't enjoy national coverage prior to the 24-hour news cycle. Same confirmation bias at work from different angles.

But the proposition "Violent anti-social behavior is increasing in American society" is an empirical claim, and can be tested. There's no need for hand-waving.
 
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It's easy for conservatives to attribute such things to cultural decline, or for Progressives to dismiss this as typical violence that simply didn't enjoy national coverage prior to the 24-hour news cycle. Same confirmation bias at work from different angles.

But the proposition "Violent anti-social behavior is increasing in American society" is an empirical claim, and can be tested. There's no need for hand-waving.

True

But what is "violent anti social behavior'?

Beating up random people?

Street fight?

Gang fight?

Does this count as "violent anti social behavior" >>

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irishff1014

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This is sad. What happened to riding bikes, playing tag or even playing PS3.Xbox or something. Kids flat out don't care and aren't raised the way some of us were.

Why does this thought even come across a teenagers mind?
 
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This is sad. What happened to riding bikes, playing tag or even playing PS3.Xbox or something. Kids flat out don't care and aren't raised the way some of us were.

Why does this thought even come across a teenagers mind?

No one rides their bike, plays tag, or even their PS3. They're all out raping and and pillaging America. God damn kids!
 

Whiskeyjack

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But what is "violent anti social behavior'?

Properly defining that variable would be crucially important for such a study (which may already exist, for all I know). I'd define it as mass-shootings, children indiscriminately murdering vagrants, etc. That sort of violence, aimed at one's own community, strikes me as unusual and especially pernicious, particularly in a country with the wealth and relative safety of the US.
 
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Buster Bluth

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Properly defining that variable would be crucially important for such a study (which may already exist, for all I know). I'd define it as mass-shootings, children indiscriminately murdering vagrants, etc. That sort of violence, aimed at one's own community, strikes me as unusual and especially pernicious, particularly in a country with the wealth and relative safety of the US.


A fair number of urban planners would say that suburbia is responsible for some of that. Putting whole generations of people in the banal and uninteresting environments which attempt to "nerf the world," or as Lewis Mumford put it:

In the suburb one might live and die without marring the image of an innocent world, except when some shadow of evil fell over a column in the newspaper. Thus the suburb served as an asylum for the preservation of illusion.

James Kunstler has written a fair amount of how our human habitats are "inducing immense amounts of anxiety and depression in children," which then coupled with a suburban environment built to broadcast vanilla "we're normal, we're normal, we're normal, we're normal.." ends up creating an situation we're social pressures basically fuck a percentage of kids up.
 

NDRock

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In some ways we have seemed to become more civilized in this country (no more slavery, much more equality for race, gender, etc..) yet other ways it seems like we're more insane.
 
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Properly defining that variable would be crucially important for such a study (which may already exist, for all I know). I'd define it as mass-shootings, children indiscriminately murdering vagrants, etc. That sort of violence, aimed at one's own community, strikes me as unusual and especially pernicious, particularly in a country with the wealth and relative safety of the US.

When I see pictures of the people killing kids at schools and theaters I see one thing: MENTAL ILLNESS. These aren't your average, everyday people who for some unknown reason decided to kill innocent people. Look at these people's pictures and tell me, are they normal?

Teens murdering hobos doesn't strike me as violence against one's own community. Homeless people are like people with leprosy back in the day; few people want anything to do with them on a face to face basis. With that said, I would definitely put it in the Violent anti social behavior category.
 

BobD

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Poor or no parenting.
Lack of community.
Stupid kids.
 

Rack Em

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Poor or no parenting.
Lack of community.
Stupid kids.

I'm in total agreement. But how do we fix those things? How do you force someone to either be a better parent or be a parent at all? (And so on...)
 

Whiskeyjack

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When I see pictures of the people killing kids at schools and theaters I see one thing: MENTAL ILLNESS. These aren't your average, everyday people who for some unknown reason decided to kill innocent people. Look at these people's pictures and tell me, are they normal?

That doesn't really get us anywhere. What if the incidence of mental illness is on the rise? What's causing that?

Teens murdering hobos doesn't strike me as violence against one's own community. Homeless people are like people with leprosy back in the day; few people want anything to do with them on a face to face basis. With that said, I would definitely put it in the Violent anti social behavior category.

It's not just hobos. Two pre-teen girls in Wisconsin recently lured their friend out into the woods and stabbed her 19 times in order to please "Slenderman", a fictitious demon neckbeards write fan-fic about online.

Are those girls mentally ill? Maybe if their absentee parents had zombified them with Ritalin in primary school, this tragedy could have been avoided. These sorts of episodes are becoming more and more frequent, and my intuition is they're symptomatic of social pathologies in our culture.

But the social sciences are ridiculously inept at modeling human behavior, so there's always enough doubt involved to dismiss such accounts if it doesn't fit with one's preferred narrative.
 

D-BOE34

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If you're trying to figure out how to create a world of better parents or a world of better kids, good luck! There is a lot that goes on in the life of a family and no one can actually say whether the parents should have done something different or not. Maybe I should say, the parents COULD have done something different. Once the time comes, it's easy to point out faults.

As for kids, how do you determine if they are being led down the right path or not? Putting them in good schools, monitoring who they hang around, establishing extra-curricular activities, etc. is all a start. No one can really determine if they are going to listen or follow. I never would have made the decision to beat a homeless man but I grew up under what is considered great parenting but I wasn't the best kid around. I know several people that were from the same "boat" and have still been suffering from decisions they made when younger. I do feel that the (entitlement?) that suburban life has leads to kids acting out. My niece has been raised great , by most standards, but as soon as they integrated the inner city schools, she has kind of went another direction. Her parents are trying to get her back on path but the influence of her peers is taking over making it more difficult than they ever expected.

Teens beating homeless people to death is definitely an issue. What is the issue? I don't know anymore than you. I personally side on the "mental issues" side of things but then what caused that? I just don't agree with the people that immediately blame the parents. (and not saying any of you have) I am still young and a parent of a 2 year old. I can tell you 3 years ago I looked at parents in a completely different light than I do now.
 

Jimmy3Putt

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As horrific as this event and many more are, I believe this stuff has been happening forever.
There's just a lot more media coverage and everyone's walking around with a camera.
 

Irish Insanity

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Poor or no parenting.
Lack of community.
Stupid kids.

I'd also add to that the disconnect between 2 parents when a kid is being parented from 2 different households. And seeing some of the anger and resentment from one parent to another, and at times seeing much worse.

As horrific as this event and many more are, I believe this stuff has been happening forever.
There's just a lot more media coverage and everyone's walking around with a camera.

I agree its been happening, but I don't believe to the extent it is now. And the media coverage and social media definitely expose it more.
 

BobD

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I'm in total agreement. But how do we fix those things? How do you force someone to either be a better parent or be a parent at all? (And so on...)

I don't know the answer.

Things are so different nowadays. Even simple stuff like clothing. My mother worried about what I wore to school because of what others would think about her. I remember her saying "if you wear that to school people will think I've lost my mind" These days a lot of parents (moms AND dads) try to dress like their kids.

My mom knew my teachers names and my teachers knew my mother's name.

We knew our neighbors and they knew us.

We addressed adults as Sir or Ma'am, even if it was the town drunk.

Women were treated like women and didn't get mad about it.
 

Rack Em

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I don't know the answer.

Things are so different nowadays. Even simple stuff like clothing. My mother worried about what I wore to school because of what others would think about her. I remember her saying "if you wear that to school people will think I've lost my mind" These days a lot of parents (moms AND dads) try to dress like their kids.

My mom knew my teachers names and my teachers knew my mother's name.

We knew our neighbors and they knew us.

We addressed adults as Sir or Ma'am, even if it was the town drunk.

Women were treated like women and didn't get mad about it.

Sounds like a rampant lapse of societal values? Which would then reinforce the points Whiskey made above.

I have trouble wrapping my head around how those values declined at such a rapid pace.
 
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That doesn't really get us anywhere. What if the incidence of mental illness is on the rise? What's causing that?

Why are SOME mentally ill people with no friends killing people in a very dramatic fashion? And it seems to me a certain demographic is doing this > young, middle class, white, male.

It's not just hobos. Two pre-teen girls in Wisconsin recently lured their friend out into the woods and stabbed her 19 times in order to please "Slenderman", a fictitious demon neckbeards write fan-fic about online.

Are those girls mentally ill? Maybe if their absentee parents had zombified them with Ritalin in primary school, this tragedy could have been avoided. These sorts of episodes are becoming more and more frequent, and my intuition is they're symptomatic of social pathologies in our culture.

Your article >> Two doctors — one hired by her lawyer and another hired by the state — have ruled Morgan Geyser, 12, is not mentally fit, according to a court report released Wednesday. I don't know about you but if someone told me they killed their friend because of a demon from the internet, I would have some questions about them.

And purposely killing your friend is different than randomly killing strangers and hobos.


But the social sciences are ridiculously inept at modeling human behavior, so there's always enough doubt involved to dismiss such accounts if it doesn't fit with one's preferred narrative.

Are teen murder rates too much to ask for?

I'll feel much more uneasy about my narrative if someone can show me some simple numbers , like teen murder rates, that back your intuition.

..
 

BobD

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Sounds like a rampant lapse of societal values? Which would then reinforce the points Whiskey made above.

I have trouble wrapping my head around how those values declined at such a rapid pace.

Yeah Whiskey is dead on...as usual.

Maybe that's the answer? Neighborhood mods....in some parts of the world they call them Taliban. Get out of line and they smack you with sticks, do it again and you're banned.
 

JughedJones

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That doesn't really get us anywhere. What if the incidence of mental illness is on the rise? What's causing that?



It's not just hobos. Two pre-teen girls in Wisconsin recently lured their friend out into the woods and stabbed her 19 times in order to please "Slenderman", a fictitious demon neckbeards write fan-fic about online.

Are those girls mentally ill? Maybe if their absentee parents had zombified them with Ritalin in primary school, this tragedy could have been avoided. These sorts of episodes are becoming more and more frequent, and my intuition is they're symptomatic of social pathologies in our culture.

But the social sciences are ridiculously inept at modeling human behavior, so there's always enough doubt involved to dismiss such accounts if it doesn't fit with one's preferred narrative.

As a sociologist, I agree with you, but with a caveat.

Of course when you attempt to explain societal behaviors - more often than not - you start with a certain number of biases. It's hard, if not impossible to remove all of them from your starting point.

I would stop short of accusing social scientists of being inept at modelling behaviors, but we are clearly not 'scientists' like a biologist or a physicist is a scientist. Our goalposts are constantly moving with each generation and with shifting political tides. No good sociologist would ever claim to definitively predict behaviors. However, the best are pretty good at pointing out patterns we might want to be aware of. That's as far as we can go.
 
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