Malaysian Airlines Flight Down in Ukraine

[Grahambo]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Another "Russia Today" reporter resigned over the show's misleading <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MH17?src=hash">#MH17</a> coverage <a href="http://t.co/7XlIHHRHLm">http://t.co/7XlIHHRHLm</a></p>— New York Post (@nypost) <a href="https://twitter.com/nypost/statuses/490226543348944896">July 18, 2014</a></blockquote>
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[Booslum31]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Another "Russia Today" reporter resigned over the show's misleading <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MH17?src=hash">#MH17</a> coverage <a href="http://t.co/7XlIHHRHLm">http://t.co/7XlIHHRHLm</a></p>— New York Post (@nypost) <a href="https://twitter.com/nypost/statuses/490226543348944896">July 18, 2014</a></blockquote>
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Get out of there as fast as you can Sara...but don't take a plane.

 

[enrico514]

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[irishog77]

For the record, I think Whiskey is correct in his assessment. Plus, the problem is that if you give an ultimatum to Russia (or to anybody), you have to back it up.

"Diplomacy" through the UN will be the world telling Putin and Russia-- "Don't do this, we really mean it." And then when Putin and Russia do it, we devise more sanctions and raise our voice and say, "Don't do this, we REALLY mean it this time." And then this continues on.

But at the same time, I think we should do something. I have no clue what that is though. We aren't going to invade Russia or anything. Everybody knows that. I think, though, that not only is idiotic to make idle threat after idle threat, but makes you look weak to outsiders/onlookers and at the negotiating table as well.

 

[Grahambo]

Whiskeyjack in 2016!


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[enrico514]

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[enrico514]

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[ResLife Hero]

This is a little bit of a joke... when she joined RT did she not know what their purpose was and what point of view they would bring forward???

They've actually had a lot of defection/dissension in the last 6 months. One of their big anchors got in trouble because she, on live TV, said that what Russia had done in Crimea was wrong.

 

[enrico514]

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[ResLife Hero]

You made my point... unless she's a total idiot she should have known the agenda of the network she was working for! Anyone who has ever watched RT knows what their bias is.

Can't say I've ever watched RT. Sort of assumed it was a recent turn this year, but maybe it's always been garbage.

 

[Grahambo]

Seems to me like you many of you guys are jumping to conclusions. RT pushes a very biased agenda but so does the US media.

I believe the difference is that while RT pushes a pro-Russia, can do no wrong bias, the US pushes a bias towards whichever direction the money is headed.


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[ResLife Hero]

Stench of tragedy hangs over Malaysia crash site - CNN.com

 

[ResLife Hero]

Opinion: Act now, or face war in Ukraine - CNN.com

 

[ND NYC]

wonder how much a Klitschko vs. Putin would gross on pay per view

 

[ResLife Hero]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Here is the official passenger manifest For <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MH17?src=hash">#MH17</a>. 298 on board, including 80 children. No known survivors. <a href="http://t.co/17zun4sOnt">http://t.co/17zun4sOnt</a></p>— Ali Vingiano (@alivingiano) <a href="https://twitter.com/alivingiano/statuses/490522263423184896">July 19, 2014</a></blockquote>
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[pkt77242]

In all of eastern Europe? No. For instance, those countries to whom we've made binding security guaranties in eastern Europe would likely be considered vital interests. But that's not Ukraine. It's literally on Russia's doorstep, and shares a long and complicated history with it's eastern neighbor. The costs of defending it would be massive, and the benefits virtually nonexistent. Sabre-rattling asides, nations can be counted on to reliably pursue their own interests. That means no US intervention here.



Let's stop doing that then. Foreign nations predict we'll act according to (what they perceive as) our vital interests. So when we give Russia ultimatums over Ukraine, they know damned well that we're not about to start WWIII over it, and it just gets laughed off.

That said, don't buy into the "credibility" bullshit American hawks are constantly trying to sell us, because an unfulfilled threat to defend a Baltic backwater like Ukraine means fuck all regarding our willingness to defend a real ally like Japan or Poland, and foreign nations know that as well.

While I generally agree that we shouldn't be involved in Ukraine vs Russia, I do think the shooting down of a passenger jet does change the equation a bit.

 

[Irish#1]

I understand the US has the clout, but the UN needs to be the leader here.

 

[ResLife Hero]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Disrespecting the dead: Kerry, UN believe that MH17 site has been looted: <a href="http://t.co/DYBaHaLC43">http://t.co/DYBaHaLC43</a> <a href="http://t.co/otNdtWKYKq">pic.twitter.com/otNdtWKYKq</a></p>— VICE News (@vicenews) <a href="https://twitter.com/vicenews/statuses/490902845789835264">July 20, 2014</a></blockquote>
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[Cackalacky]

The Great US Interventionist Machine

Even with little in the way of concrete knowledge — much less clear, direct ties to American lives and interests — what might be called the Great U.S. Intervention Machine is already kicking into high gear. This is unfortunate, to say the least.

After a decade-plus of disastrous wars in Afghanistan and Iraq that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people (including almost 7,000 American soldiers) and constitutionally dubious and strategically vague interventions in places such as Libya, it is well past time for American politicians, policymakers, and voters to stage a national conversation about U.S. foreign policy. Instead, elected officials and their advisers are always looking for the next crisis over which to puff up their chests and beat war drums.

When the United States uses its unrivaled military power everywhere and all the time, we end up accomplishing far less than hawks desire. Being everywhere and threatening action all the time dissipates American power rather than concentrates it. Contra John McCain and Hillary Clinton, whatever happened in Ukrainian airspace doesn’t immediately or obviously involve the United States, even with the loss of an American citizen. The reflexive call for action is symptomatic of exactly what we need to stop doing, at least if we want to learn from the past dozen-plus years of our own failures.

President Obama is right to move cautiously regarding a U.S. response. He would be wiser still to use the last years of his presidency to begin the hard work of forging a foreign-policy consensus that all Americans can actually get behind, not just in this situation but in all the others we will surely encounter.

 

[enrico514]

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[Cackalacky]

I hope you guys will have the same reactions if the Ukraine govt is shown to be involved...

What do you mean?

 

[enrico514]

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[ResLife Hero]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Kerry lays out "overwhelming evidence" of Russian complicity in the shooting down of <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MH17?src=hash">#MH17</a>: <a href="http://t.co/4VpMLHjxhf">http://t.co/4VpMLHjxhf</a> <a href="http://t.co/YPQhyebSrK">pic.twitter.com/YPQhyebSrK</a></p>— Reuters Top News (@Reuters) <a href="https://twitter.com/Reuters/statuses/491242732753813504">July 21, 2014</a></blockquote>
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[Cackalacky]

I'm seeing a ton of finger pointing supported by no proof whatsoever. I'm just hoping that if we ever do find out what happened the majority of the posters here will have the same reactions no matter who the culprit is.

Not sure what you are getting at. It seems to be pretty clear that Russian separatists, facilitated by the Russians, targeted a plane thought to be Ukranian.

 

[ResLife Hero]

President Obama speaking on the incident currently:
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>MORE: Obama accused pro-Russian separatists in the area of removing evidence and bodies from the crash site: <a href="http://t.co/6OVsDMf5fl">http://t.co/6OVsDMf5fl</a></p>— The Associated Press (@AP) <a href="https://twitter.com/AP/statuses/491243945335484417">July 21, 2014</a></blockquote>
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[Irish#1]

I'm seeing a ton of finger pointing supported by no proof whatsoever. I'm just hoping that if we ever do find out what happened the majority of the posters here will have the same reactions no matter who the culprit is.

I don't know why anyone would feel any different. If they were to find the US was behind this, it wouldn't change my thought on bringing down a civilian jet without just cause.

 

[irishog77]

Not sure what you are getting at. It seems to be pretty clear that Russian separatists, facilitated by the Russians, targeted a plane thought to be Ukranian.

And further, where is all this finger pointing on this board?? Any talk of action and sanctions has been understood as theoretical.

If Ukraine did this (which the reports we're seeing are not pointing that way at all so far), people on IE would be upset at them for killing these people.

But keep in mind that the actions of Russia, and Putin as well, are a track record of bad/hostile/undemocratic actions. Of course people are more upset if it is, indeed, from a habitual offender.

 

[enrico514]

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[Cackalacky]

And further, where is all this finger pointing on this board?? Any talk of action and sanctions has been understood as theoretical.

If Ukraine did this (which the reports we're seeing are not pointing that way at all so far), people on IE would be upset at them for killing these people.

But keep in mind that the actions of Russia, and Putin as well, are a track record of bad/hostile/undemocratic actions. Of course people are more upset if it is, indeed, from a habitual offender.

Right? AFAIK its been theoretical re: sanctions vs. nothing vs military action.

If the Ukraine did it, (which I don't see how) it would put us and NATO in a very sticky situation politically, considering the incoherent alignment of Ukraine with the US and NATO.

 

[Cackalacky]

I guess we disagree with the level of proof needed.

I would also add that if it was indeed a "mistake" by the rebels... I'm not sure how the we hold Putin responsible to the extent pushed by the US media...

Well it is commonly believed that Putin is aggressively pushing destabilization in eastern Ukraine to support "democratic annexation" of Pro-Russian provinces such as Donetsk.

It is also believed that the missile systems used to shoot down three planes over Ukraine were obtained from Crimea and handed over to separatists with support provided directly by Russia.

The mistake is really inconsequential as the separatists appear to be targeting what they thought were Ukrainian planes.

They are also inhibiting search and rescue and purportedly have the black boxes.

What are you exactly wanting someone to to accept that s not being reported?