Excessive Force by Bouncer

[Jason Pham]

"Surely" you think too much. Stop it, for your good. Just stop.

You suck, has nothing to do with what happened, you kind of just suck.

Watch it. You can disagree with others without telling them that "they suck."

 

[Woneone]

That might be the law, but it's not the reality of what happens in bars.

There are a lot of ways for people to deflect blame for their actions and make money from it.

Oh, I agree. And like I said, you'd need a witness, and as everyone has said, it's probably best to just move on (My "That's Crap" line was a bit harsh in my initial post. Sorry, between the ND bball choke and my 0-4 in the bowl pick'em, I'm a bit testy this morning).

I've been thrown out of one bar in my life. Apparently, I looked a lot like an individual who slept with another patron's girl friend. He got a running start, and cold-clocked me into next week. As I came to on the ground, a few bouncers were nice enough to pick me up by my shirt, use my head to open the door, and threw me outside.

After all the dust settled, I was actually allowed to re-enter the bar (they threw the other guy outside with me, and he didn't even realize I was the guy he whacked. Thank God, because if he had, I was in for a beating). After everything was explained, I didn't have to pay for another drink, and everyone associated with the bar had a much nicer disposition towards me.

I have no doubt if I would have suffered some sort of head injury, that I could have made a pretty big stink about it.

In most cases, I'm sure it's better to just move on and let things go, but that doesn't mean there is no liability to be handed out because a bouncer "escorted" you from a bar.

 

[Irish2155]

Watch it. You can disagree with others without telling them that "they suck."

My apologies, you are correct.

 

[Jason Pham]

I don't think a bouncer has an obligation to avoid injuring someone that he is forcibly removing from an establishment for their behavior. His obligation is to protect the patrons not acting out of line from the person's whose action requires physical removal.

There's almost always a minimum standard of responsibility. To take an obvious and obviously extreme example, the bouncer typically can't use such force that it kills the guy. The question then is what is the minimum standard. If the bouncer uses only as much force as a reasonable person would think is necessary to ensure the safety of other bar patrons, he'll probably be okay, but the law (and I would say common decency) requires the bouncer to be at least reasonable about it.

 

[4irishnation]

Watch it. You can disagree with others without telling them that "they suck."

Don't throw him on his head we're watching you!!!

 

[Jason Pham]

My apologies, you are correct.

No problem. Thanks for the response.

 

[Jason Pham]

Don't throw him on his head we're watching you!!!

Sue me.

 

[woolybug25]

There's almost always a minimum standard of responsibility. To take an obvious and obviously extreme example, the bouncer typically can't use such force that it kills the guy. The question then is what is the minimum standard. If the bouncer uses only as much force as a reasonable person would think is necessary to ensure the safety of other bar patrons, he'll probably be okay, but the law (and I would say common decency) requires the bouncer to be at least reasonable about it.

I agree. But this does not seem to fit that profile. The bouncer didn't punch the OP, he didn't kick the OP, he didn't hit him with anything. He through him out of the bar, as the OP stated, with reason. The process of that led to an injury that the OP can't even remember. He is going off people's (i'm assuming other intoxicated people) interpretation of the bouncer "throwing him".

As I said previously, I am sure that there may be opportunity for litigation on the OP's side. The question is whether he wants to be the type of person that does so. I am not trying to answer the OP's question of whether he can legally press charges, i'm trying to let him know that there is a personal cost of loss of dignity.

 

[ARALOU]

I saw guy get into a scuffle with another guy at a bar. Bouncers come in grab and rough up the guy that didn't start the scuffle but was defending himself. The instigator got no rough treatment. Hell, he wasn't even asked to leave.

The reason was that the bouncers knew the instigator and made an assumption. assumption. So yes, they were liable and charged with assault as if they were part of it themselves. The thing the guy that got beat down did correctly was call the police, right then, and have them charged. He won.
Things are not always cut and dried

 

[Jason Pham]

I agree. But this does not seem to fit that profile. The bouncer didn't punch the OP, he didn't kick the OP, he didn't hit him with anything. He through him out of the bar, as the OP stated, with reason. The process of that led to an injury that the OP can't even remember. He is going off people's (i'm assuming other intoxicated people) interpretation of the bouncer "throwing him".

As I said previously, I am sure that there may be opportunity for litigation on the OP's side. The question is whether he wants to be the type of person that does so. I am not trying to answer the OP's question of whether he can legally press charges, i'm trying to let him know that there is a personal cost of loss of dignity.

Maybe not; hard to say since OP doesn't remember. There might be something there with respect to the concussion, but I can't really say much there either.

As for your second point, I generally agree, unless he's in a position where he's saddled with medical bills that he can't afford. Having a legal right obviously doesn't require you to exercise that right, but claimants are sometimes influenced not by wanting to seek retribution but by the need to spread the cost of the damages around which would otherwise be impossible to cover. Again, don't know much about the OP and his story so I can't say whether that's the situation here.

 

[cody1smith]

I agree. But this does not seem to fit that profile. The bouncer didn't punch the OP, he didn't kick the OP, he didn't hit him with anything. He through him out of the bar, as the OP stated, with reason. The process of that led to an injury that the OP can't even remember. He is going off people's (i'm assuming other intoxicated people) interpretation of the bouncer "throwing him".

As I said previously, I am sure that there may be opportunity for litigation on the OP's side. The question is whether he wants to be the type of person that does so. I am not trying to answer the OP's question of whether he can legally press charges, i'm trying to let him know that there is a personal cost of loss of dignity.

every time I was ever questioned by a police officer or a lawyer after a fight. If you were drunk, usually asked "could you have legally drove home" they pretty much dismissed anything you say. So witnesses are pretty much null in this situation.

With that being said I am pretty sure I was told one time that i could grab people but could not use enough force to move their feet.
But anyone that has every worked in a bar knows you do anything you can to get people focused on buying drinks. I am not a bad ass by any means but i have punched kicked choked ect douche bags for being stupid in the bar. And the worst thing is half of the time it was guys taking their shirts off. You would be amazed how mad someone gets when you simply say could you put your shirt back on.

Note I was a DJ

 

[BGIF]

Apparently in your state you have a case based on the Pennsylvania Dram Shop Law.

Pennsylvania Dram Shop Law : Pennsylvania Law Monitor

Read the article then call a lawyer tomorrow morning. That will be the day before Christmas Eve so get moving.


I'm not an attorney. Years ago my family owned a bar for about 15 years in another state which also had a Dram Law. A regular patron had been in the bar before being killed by train at a railroad crossing. The deceased was declared legally intoxicated by the M.E. His wife sued the bar's owner and the case went to court.

Under the Dram Shop Law, the bar had responsibility as he had been served a drink. The long time regular didn't speak when he sat on a bar stool. The bar was busy when he caught the bartender's eye he held up one finger, the index finger signaling for one drink as was his custom. The bartender poured the man's regular drink and marked it on a coaster in front of the man "running a tab". When he signaled for a second drink the bartender spoke with him and cut him off at one drink when the man replied with slurred speech. The bartender suggested he sleep it off in his car and asked for the man's keys to prevent him from driving. He also offered to call a cab. The man mumbled inaudibly and left.

The court found under the Dram Shop Law the bar had responsibility. However in this case there was an overriding exculpatory factor. An investigation found the deceased had tried to commit suicide several times before. The driver of the car behind the deceased testified at the scene and in court that the deceased had driven around the railroad crossing gates and stopped on the tracks. The railroad engineer testified that he blew his whistle several times and he could see that the deceased made no effort to drive off the tracks nor exit the car. Instead he sat and watched the train run him down.

The court found it was a willful suicide.

The bar was sold within a month due to the Dram Shop Law exposure.


You have two situations:

They have culpability under the PA Law for serving an intoxicated person.

Their bouncer can defend himself from an attacking person but he doesn't get a free ride on battery. If the police "threw out a drunk" who ended up in the hospital with head injuries the city would be expecting a lawsuit.


Get all the info together, bar receipts, witnesses, bills, etc and go see an attorney.

And stop posting about this on an Internet board with your city identified and your photo present. Even if the other side doesn't see this your employer might.

 

[50milesSE ND]

Sorry to hear you got hurt. I was a bouncer back in the day, and in all honesty you really got to piss someone off bad to get tossed from a bar. The reason I say this is because you I assume were buying drinks, and they want to sell them to you. However we couldn't get rough with anyone unless no other option so if you didn't act aggressive then go after them, but having been intoxicated may not serve you well. Atleast you are ok. Oh the good ol days

 

[Irish To The Core]

Back when I was in college I bounced for awhile. I removed a few unruly patrons and know a bit about the way it goes down. If sharksamardzija8345 had been physically aggressive towards a bouncer, he would almost certainly been punched and (in a larger establishment) set upon by several other bouncers. That didn't happen. The bouncer's responsibility is to protect patrons and staff from aggressive drunks. It is also the bouncer's job to remove very drunk patrons who are interfering with the operation of the bar (arguing with bar maids about being cut off, messing with the sound system, bumping into people repeatedly, drinking someone else's beer after being cut off, etc.) In all cases the bouncer must use REASONABLE FORCE. A drunk who starts swinging is free game up until the point he stops kicking and punching. A docile drunk who can be led out without force should not be handled at all. The "bum's rush" which is what sharksamardzija8345 appears to have been given is for staggering drunks who a) cannot wobble out the door and b) don't have a more sober buddy who has the sense to help him out peacefully. I never resorted to this as it is almost always interpreted as excessive force likely to cause injury by the courts. It would rarely happen back then, but if you are tossing 5 drunks a night, eventually the shyte is going to hit the fan.

When it comes down to a lawsuit, if the unruly patron is not physically resisting (that includes refusing to move when instructed to do so) any physical contact is excessive. The key is a SOBER WITNESS who will support you. Your equally drunk buddies are not much help. Usually if it is excessive force the establishment will find sober witnesses in its own employees and settle out of court.

 

[D-BOE34]

So you get kicked out of a bar, hit your head, get knocked out, ambulance is called, you're hauled away to hospital and no report from anyone was made? Wouldn't the police have made an incident report or am I missing something?

 

[irishfan]

What did you blow at the hospital? If you blew like a .09 then ya, a court would attribute the memory loss to the concussion. If you blew a something like a .19 you'd have a hard time convincing people you weren't blacked out.

 

[sharksamardzija8345]

Irishfan - No idea what I blew or if I blew.

D-Boe - No report was made as far as I know. I have not been able to get in touch with a single person who saw it, only what my friends say they heard happen.

Wooly - I'd have to gather more info from people who saw it to be able to determine if I would lose any dignity.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

At the end of the day, the bar/bouncer is liable to the extent their unreasonable actions caused your damages. (Meaning that they're not liable to the extent your damages were caused by your or someone else's unreasonable actions.)

So you could at least get one of those free consultations you see with the so-called ambulance chasers. I mean, they're free so you've got nothing to lose. I don't know if you damages will be large enough to draw quality counsel, but I'd say if you've got $20k in damages someone in your area will take your case and run with it. (They'll get a third of any recovery).

 

[woolybug25]

Irishfan - No idea what I blew or if I blew.

D-Boe - No report was made as far as I know. I have not been able to get in touch with a single person who saw it, only what my friends say they heard happen.

Wooly - I'd have to gather more info from people who saw it to be able to determine if I would lose any dignity.

Shark, if I may ask... How much did this episode cost you? Out of pocket, mind.

 

[sharksamardzija8345]

Shark, if I may ask... How much did this episode cost you? Out of pocket, mind.

I'll find out Monday if my insurance covered the ER visit and ambulance ride. I have no answer as of right now.

 

[woolybug25]

I'll find out Monday if my insurance covered the ER visit and ambulance ride. I have no answer as of right now.

For arguments sake, let's say your insurance did cover it.

What are you out?

 

[sharksamardzija8345]

For arguments sake, let's say your insurance did cover it.

What are you out?

Probably a week of work. I don't think I'll be going in.

 

[woolybug25]

Probably a week of work. I don't think I'll be going in.

You have to miss a week of work because of a concussion?

Not trying to sound like a dick, btw. That just sounds extreme to me.

So worst case scenario... You would want to sue for a weeks pay and insurance deductibles?

 

[sharksamardzija8345]

You have to miss a week of work because of a concussion?

Not trying to sound like a dick, btw. That just sounds extreme to me.

So worst case scenario... You would want to sue for a weeks pay and insurance deductibles?

I've had a few concussions. This one is different. I opened up some Christmas presents, then 4 hours later, saw them and asked "whose shirt is this?" and things like that. You're not sounding like a dick. This concussion is extreme compared to those I've had in the past. I have to drive 3 hours back home to go to work. I was just up visiting my hometown for the weekend. I'm still 50/50 on whether I'm going back tomorrow or not.

 

[Irish#1]

Nothing good ever happens when there is too much alcohol consumed. Sorry about the injuries, but I'd like to know the other side of the story.

 

[D-BOE34]

I feel like this thread could derail into a great off-season topic. "Times we got our ass kicked for being stupid"

I had my ass kicked once. My dad said, "Well 4 on 1 isn't a fight. One on one is a fight. They should pay for what they did." I then explained that I wasn't sure which one was going to actually fight me so I started swinging on all of them. (Everyone was drunk and stupid in this case, self included) Needless to say the first two I got real good, out cold. The next two went to town on my ass. Talk about learning a lesson!

Hope everything works out for ya Shark. Feel better.

 

[sharksamardzija8345]

Nothing good ever happens when there is too much alcohol consumed. Sorry about the injuries, but I'd like to know the other side of the story.

yeah me too lol I will say this though, I have never once started a physical altercation in my life.. but, did I cross the line by being a smart ass? I have no clue.. if I did, did that warrant me getting pummeled into the concrete? Again, I don't know..

thank you for everyone's input and concern.. just gunna take my medicine here and thank God I was not severely injured beyond this concussion and soreness.. I think I'm putting this dilemma to bed with the lack of witnesses and lack of knowing what the hell happened.. there's enough shame and embarrassment going on in my head for ruining my family's Christmas events, real eye opener here


But yeah, I guess we can turn the page here and go off of my man's "times we got our ass kicked for being idiots" thread for a little offseason banter.. Mod, wanna change the thread title? If not, that's cool..


Thanks everyone, and take care. Have yourselves a Merry Christmas and/or Happy Holidays. Be well.

 

[Irish#1]

yeah me too lol I will say this though, I have never once started a physical altercation in my life.. but, did I cross the line by being a smart ass? I have no clue.. if I did, did that warrant me getting pummeled into the concrete? Again, I don't know..

thank you for everyone's input and concern.. just gunna take my medicine here and thank God I was not severely injured beyond this concussion and soreness.. I think I'm putting this dilemma to bed with the lack of witnesses and lack of knowing what the hell happened.. there's enough shame and embarrassment going on in my head for ruining my family's Christmas events, real eye opener here


But yeah, I guess we can turn the page here and go off of my man's "times we got our ass kicked for being idiots" thread for a little offseason banter.. Mod, wanna change the thread title? If not, that's cool..


Thanks everyone, and take care. Have yourselves a Merry Christmas and/or Happy Holidays. Be well.

I thought about this a little more last night. Without having witnesses to talk to, if an attorney were to take this he would probably ask for a lot of money up front to have someone starting doing the investigative work to even see if this would merit a lawsuit. The other option would be for the attorney to write a letter and see if he could get an insurance settlement. In either scenario, I think an attorney would want money up front to pursue.

Hope you head clears up and you don't have any lasting effects. Merry Christmas.

 

[Irish Insanity]

yeah me too lol I will say this though, I have never once started a physical altercation in my life.. but, did I cross the line by being a smart ass? I have no clue.. if I did, did that warrant me getting pummeled into the concrete? Again, I don't know..

thank you for everyone's input and concern.. just gunna take my medicine here and thank God I was not severely injured beyond this concussion and soreness.. I think I'm putting this dilemma to bed with the lack of witnesses and lack of knowing what the hell happened.. there's enough shame and embarrassment going on in my head for ruining my family's Christmas events, real eye opener here


But yeah, I guess we can turn the page here and go off of my man's "times we got our ass kicked for being idiots" thread for a little offseason banter.. Mod, wanna change the thread title? If not, that's cool..


Thanks everyone, and take care. Have yourselves a Merry Christmas and/or Happy Holidays. Be well.

I would consider contacting the establishment and asking for there account of what happened. It may be biased towards them to protect themselves, but at least it will be some pieces to the puzzle. Perhaps inform them you were injured and explain your loss of memory. Even explain you have no desire to file a suit, but that you simply want to fill in what is now blank. I would imagine most establishments now a days have security system outside and possibly inside that recorded the incident.

 

[koonja]

You said in your OP that you were drunk, but not blacked out or belligerent. But you don't remember why you were thrown out? Seems like if you weren't blacked out, you'd definitely remember this. If you're going the lawyer route, first thing I'd suggest is getting your story straight.

Like others said, I'd call the bar just to see what their story is. Even if it's untrue, it's good to know what you're up against.

Good luck.