U.S. B-52s defy China's claimed 'defense zone'

[Polish Leppy 22]

These are two concerns of mine. Sure they don't have a bunch of battleships, that's because they have no plans to ever go into other waters to fight wars. They know that any conflicts will most likely be in their waters. That's why they have the biggest nuclear submarine program in the world. They also have 143% more military military personnel and four times the available manpower between 15-49 year olds.

Their apparent allegiance to North Korea, Iran and Russia make me very nervouse. Especially considering we owe them over $1.2 Trillion in foreign debt. A number, I may add, that many economists opine can never actually be paid back.

I'm not saying Red Dawn is going to happen tomorrow. But there are some clear red flags going on here.

Glad I'm not the only one who's aware/ skeptical of these numbers haha. Good call, my friend.

 

[BobD]

These are two concerns of mine. Sure they don't have a bunch of battleships, that's because they have no plans to ever go into other waters to fight wars. They know that any conflicts will most likely be in their waters. That's why they have the biggest nuclear submarine program in the world. They also have 143% more military military personnel and four times the available manpower between 15-49 year olds.

Their apparent allegiance to North Korea, Iran and Russia make me very nervouse. Especially considering we owe them over $1.2 Trillion in foreign debt. A number, I may add, that many economists opine can never actually be paid back.

I'm not saying Red Dawn is going to happen tomorrow. But there are some clear red flags going on here.

There is no larger or better nuclear sub program than ours and if someone on one of theirs farts, we know about it.

Their large military is useless in today's warfare.

 

[woolybug25]

There is no larger or better nuclear sub program than ours and if someone on one of theirs farts, we know about it.

Their large military is useless in today's warfare.

China surpassed us in 2010. We have been decommisioning subs without replacement for many years.

China also possesses what he called "the largest conventional submarine force in the world, totaling more than 60 boats" to go along with "a number of" nuclear-powered fast attack and ballistic missile subs. The PLA, Willard contended, is also developing a new submarine-launched ballistic missile, the JL-2, which is "capable of reaching the West Coast of the United States."

Chinese Buildup Of Cyber, Space Tools Worries U.S. | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[johnnycando]

Bottom line:

As populations continue to sky rocket, and resources continue to dwindle due to use by said populations, countries will search for more ways to sustain its peoples needs.

In time, war will happen. In order to circumvent famines, plagues, and pestilence.

Someday, it will happen.

Rest your souls, however.

There is peace in heaven.

 

[BGIF]

These are two concerns of mine. Sure they don't have a bunch of battleships, that's because they have no plans to ever go into other waters to fight wars. They know that any conflicts will most likely be in their waters. That's why they have the biggest nuclear submarine program in the world. They also have 143% more military personnel and four times the available manpower between 15-49 year olds.

Their apparent allegiance to North Korea, Iran and Russia make me very nervous. Especially considering we owe them over $1.2 Trillion in foreign debt. A number, I may add, that many economists opine can never actually be paid back.

I'm not saying Red Dawn is going to happen tomorrow. But there are some clear red flags going on here.

Battleships? Nobody has battleships today except museums.

The last U.S. battleship, Wisconsin, was launched almost 70 years ago in '44. The last two active battleships, Iowa and Wisconsin, were retired by The Navy in '06.

 

[BobD]

China surpassed us in 2010. We have been decommisioning subs without replacement for many years.

Chinese Buildup Of Cyber, Space Tools Worries U.S. | Defense News | defensenews.com

PLA needs at least 20 nuclear submarines, says admiral｜Politics｜News｜WantChinaTimes.com

 

[woolybug25]

Battleships? Nobody has battleships today except museums.

The last U.S. battleship, Wisconsin, was launched almost 70 years ago in '44. The last two active battleships, Iowa and Wisconsin, were retired by The Navy in '06.

I was talking about aircraft carriers. I realize there is a difference, just used the wrong term.

 

[BobD]

PLA needs at least 20 nuclear submarines, says admiral｜Politics｜News｜WantChinaTimes.com

 

[woolybug25]

PLA needs at least 20 nuclear submarines, says admiral｜Politics｜News｜WantChinaTimes.com

Pretty much every other peice of info states otherwise. I'm not sure that WantChinaTimes.com has accurate info.

According to Wikipedia – admittedly not the best source, but it does document its articles on China’s navy with links to other websites – the PLAN (the Chinese navy) has:

•5 Type 094 Jin class SSBNs;
•1 Xia class SSBN;
•1 Golf class SSB;
•5 Han class SSNs (but the article on the Han class itself says only 4 submarines of this class remain in service);
•at least 4 Shang class (Type 093) SSNs;
•2 Type 095 SSNs;
•12 Kilo class conventional subs (SSKs);
•13 Song class SSKs;
•7 Yuan class SSKs;
•1 Type 43 Qing class SSK;
•17 Romeo class SSKs.
That would give China a fleet of 68 (5+1+1+5+4+12+13+7+1+17) submarines.

However, the article on the Romeo class says that 31 subs of this class remain in service for training purposes. If the additional 13 subs are counted, that gives China a fleet of 85 submarines. It is likely, though, that new submarines will replace some Romeo class boats soon.

The USN has a fleet of 70 submarines: 14 SSBNs, 4 SSGNs, and 52 attack submarines. It used to be 53, but the USS Miami was set afire (arsoned) earlier this year and will have to undergo repairs, so she is not seaworthy right now.

So, depending on which figure you’re looking at, China has either already amassed more subs than the US or is close to achieving this, just 2 boats short of the goal.

 

[woolybug25]

These numbers are from our Congress.

 

[BobD]

Don't buy into the scare tactics wooly. Nobody is going to "out sub" the US anytime soon. Even if they have more, they won't have better. We have subs that can destroy the world as we know it......That should be more worrisome than what China has.

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

These are two concerns of mine. Sure they don't have a bunch of battleships, that's because they have no plans to ever go into other waters to fight wars. They know that any conflicts will most likely be in their waters. That's why they have the biggest nuclear submarine program in the world. They also have 143% more military personnel and four times the available manpower between 15-49 year olds.

Their apparent allegiance to North Korea, Iran and Russia make me very nervous. Especially considering we owe them over $1.2 Trillion in foreign debt. A number, I may add, that many economists opine can never actually be paid back.

I'm not saying Red Dawn is going to happen tomorrow. But there are some clear red flags going on here.

Few points:

1) China cares about North Korea insofar as they don't want the country to collapse and creating a massive refugee crisis or reunify Korea.

2) Iran an Russia are big trading partners of theirs, it only makes sense for them to have ties.

3) The only way we go toe-to-toe with China's army is in Taiwan, and is dependent on their ability to project power across the Taiwan straight. The absolute size of their army in this sense is irrelevant.

4) What we DO need to worry about as far as large scale conflict are anti ship missiles, particularly ballistic missiles, and submarines. If they can close the Taiwan straight by making it too dangerous for our carrier battle groups (which may already be the case), we may be largely be delegated to the sidelines.

Also need to worry about China bullying it's neighbors, which this is a lot more of. Having military superiority is important, but the diplomatic end is much more important. That's what this show of force is all about.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

3) The only way we go toe-to-toe with China's army is in Taiwan, and is dependent on their ability to project power across the Taiwan straight. The absolute size of their army in this sense is irrelevant.

Although unlikely, they have ongoing territorial disputes with Australia too (in addition to Japan). Worst-case scenario they could invade on the ground, and we would have to lead a 'coalition of the willing'.

 

[alaskandomer]

Really? This entire country was founded on squatter's rights. We stole the Native Americans' land, and then, when that wasn't enough, we stole the Southwest from Mexico. Having said that, I understand that we cannot allow China to just claim whatever they want. What I hope is that we had an EP-3 Aries shadowing the B-52s, recording and analyzing every radar signal that the Chinese put out there.

I expect that's just what that's exactly what we're doing. Used to happen up here all the time during the Cold War era. US and Soviet planes would routinely edge just across the other side's air space to see what lit up.

 

[Irish YJ]

I agree with most of what you said, but not this one. Militarily, sure the Chinese aren't going toe to toe with the US. They're not dumb.

I saw a 60 minutes special a few months ago. Almost all the attacks from hackers into the US defense/ cyber/ pentagon, etc. are Chinese. It's the new Cold War. If they were somehow able to infiltrate, $hit would get ugly quick. Let's pray we have the best and brightest IT folks in the country protecting us in cyber world.

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

I didn't know you were a man in uniform YJ. Those glasses really bring your outfit together.

 

[ACamp1900]

It's like looking a mirror....

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

Although unlikely, they have ongoing territorial disputes with Australia too (in addition to Japan). Worst-case scenario they could invade on the ground, and we would have to lead a 'coalition of the willing'.

Outside of the Taiwan straight China wouldn't have a chance in hell at minimum for many decades. Not even close really.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Personally, I worry about our dependence on satelite- and network- dependent equipment. Sure we way out ahead in terms of our total capabilities, but I suspect that they are more vulnerable than we admit.

As others alluded to above, I think China could cause some serious damage to us without shooting a single bullet.

Also very annoying... if you follow the news, we are constantly losing defense secrets to the Chinese. We do a terrible job protecting our information.

 

[Redbar]

A couple of points:
The United States' Naval assets could defeat anyone in the world and possibly the whole world.

Japan is dependent on importing most of their natural resources, if we do not facilitate this peacefully they WILL secure them militarily. They have always dominated their region in this respect.

If I owe you money you have some power over me. If I owe you ridiculous, "TOO BIG TO FAIL" amounts of money who really controls who?

China has a lot of internal problems, at some point the regime may look to start a skirmish to quell some of their internal factions. I doubt that they see the U.S. as their best option for distraction. I do agree that Taiwan presents the greatest opportunity for a standoff. Historically China has been very methodical in their foreign policy, I am not losing sleep over the Red Dawn just yet.

 

[BobD]

It's funny how two countries so different have become so dependent on each other.

 

[Irishnuke]

I know our ex military boys recall similar moments when things just about got very hairy.

Having used to work with a lot of ex Navy Nukes, these guys play war games every few months with Russians, Japs, Chinese- you name it.

Except it isn't a game.

Where/when did you work with ex Navy Nukes? I myself am an ex Navy Nuke. I was on a carrier though. I'm assuming the guys you worked with were submariners. While I was mostly working down below decks and didn't know the mission of the ship most of the time, I can tell you that on my last deployment we ran many drills with other countries' Navies. Japan, South Korea, Australia, Canada and I think Chile. On my first deployment we just bombed Afghanistan most of the time.

 

[johnnycando]

Where/when did you work with ex Navy Nukes? I myself am an ex Navy Nuke. I was on a carrier though. I'm assuming the guys you worked with were submariners. While I was mostly working down below decks and didn't know the mission of the ship most of the time, I can tell you that on my last deployment we ran many drills with other countries' Navies. Japan, South Korea, Australia, Canada and I think Chile. On my first deployment we just bombed Afghanistan most of the time.

Yes submariners.

WIPP.

They said there too types of nukes: subs and targets.

 

[Irishnuke]

Yes submariners.

WIPP.

They said there too types of nukes: subs and targets.

Yes that's what they always say. They sure are proud of their all male crews and hot racking.

 

[johnnycando]

Yes that's what they always say. They sure are proud of their all male crews and hot racking.

I heard smelling each other's farts is still a past time of most nukes.

 

[Irish YJ]

I didn't know you were a man in uniform YJ. Those glasses really bring your outfit together.

I coordinated the color of the tape on my glasses to match my dual pocket protectors. Gotta keep it real my friend. Normally I roll with blue, gold, or green, but it had just turned spring at the time of the picture so I went white and got a little crazy.

 

[enrico514]

Well I must say that I wasn't expecting this from China:

China sends warplanes to newly declared air zone

BBC News - China sends warplanes to newly declared air zone


China's aircraft carrier passes through Taiwan Strait

China's aircraft carrier passes through Taiwan Strait - Xinhua | English.news.cn

 

[kmoose]

The crazy thing is that I just read a book by Dale Brown, based on almost identical circumstances........

China and Japan are in a dispute over a set of islands. China declares a no-fly zone. When a US P-8 Poseidon violates the Chinese airspace, the Chinese use a new laser type weapon to take it down. Then the Chinese shoot down a rescue helicopter that is trying to locate wreckage/survivors from the P-8. Later in the book, anti-ship ballistic missiles become a threat, when the President orders a carrier battle group into the area. The book is called Tiger's Claw.

Tiger's Claw: A Novel: Dale Brown: 9780061990014: Amazon.com: Books