Government Spying on Millions (Verizon)

MJ12666

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After reading the excerpts of the article I would really like to know:

1. Why don't the three alleged employees name the congressmen they spoke with. The citizens in their congressional districts have a right to know.

2. If the employees in their frustration with the system finally when to the press, why wasn't their story picked-up by any mainstream media outlets? Who did they tell some reporter from the Nowheresville Gazette?

3. What exactly is an "institutional crime"? Never heard of any person or entity prosecuted to this offense.

4. William Binney answer on what Snowden can expect if apprehended: "first tortured, then maybe even rendered and tortured and then incarcerated and then tried and incarcerated or even executed." After reading this the whole story loses creditability. This guy sounds like a nut.
 
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phgreek

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OK...I saw some excerpts from General Alexander's "brief" to congress.

First let me say I want to trust this guy....out of anyone, he should be the guy to trust.

But if I'm honest with myself, and apply criteria I've used for ages...I'm not sold.

Did he mostly say the right stuff...yea. If you read his statement you might be impressed to exhale, and think...he's got this.

But when I see an executive read a statement...red flags fly up all over the place. How can he not be intimate with the measures of success of his organization...he needs to read a statement telling me the NSA doesn't do certain things, and they've saved our bacon 50 times...WTF? ...I saw a guy today that doesn't really own this thing...I did not see a man vested and owning the lead. What the hell is it with "Leaders" anymore...seriously.
 

Fbolt

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Good article on this IMO:

Commentary: Leaders and Leakers | The National Interest

Glenn Greenwald, the civil-liberties columnist who broke the story about the National Security Agency's massive collection of metadata on U.S. phone and Internet usage patterns, contends that, despite its being classified Top Secret, “There’s not a single revelation that we’ve provided to the world that even remotely jeopardizes national security.” Director of National Intelligence James Clapper begs to differ, saying they have done “huge, grave damage.”

The truth is that Greenwald does not have any way of knowing how much damage has been done. And Clapper, who denied the program even existed in testimony under oath to Congress, obviously believes he has higher duties than public candor. Indeed, while he vividly condemns "reckless disclosures of intelligence community measures used to keep Americans safe," he also admits that "not all the inaccuracies can be corrected without further revealing classified information."

While they're almost existentially opposed to one another, Greenwald and Clapper are honorable men who passionately believe in their causes and love their country. Clapper has spent the last half century in his nation's service, almost all of it in the intelligence business. He's been in charge of the nation's secrets and the men and women who collect and analyze them and is keenly aware of the practical consequences of their compromise. Greenwald, a constitutional lawyer by training, is leery of the national-security state and its penchant for secrecy, deeply troubled that far too much information is classified for the wrong reasons and that Americans' civil liberties are traded too cheaply for minimal and even nonexistent gains in security. Neither is wrong.

Use link for full story
 

phgreek

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Good article on this IMO:

Commentary: Leaders and Leakers | The National Interest

Glenn Greenwald, the civil-liberties columnist who broke the story about the National Security Agency's massive collection of metadata on U.S. phone and Internet usage patterns, contends that, despite its being classified Top Secret, “There’s not a single revelation that we’ve provided to the world that even remotely jeopardizes national security.” Director of National Intelligence James Clapper begs to differ, saying they have done “huge, grave damage.”

The truth is that Greenwald does not have any way of knowing how much damage has been done. And Clapper, who denied the program even existed in testimony under oath to Congress, obviously believes he has higher duties than public candor. Indeed, while he vividly condemns "reckless disclosures of intelligence community measures used to keep Americans safe," he also admits that "not all the inaccuracies can be corrected without further revealing classified information."

While they're almost existentially opposed to one another, Greenwald and Clapper are honorable men who passionately believe in their causes and love their country. Clapper has spent the last half century in his nation's service, almost all of it in the intelligence business. He's been in charge of the nation's secrets and the men and women who collect and analyze them and is keenly aware of the practical consequences of their compromise. Greenwald, a constitutional lawyer by training, is leery of the national-security state and its penchant for secrecy, deeply troubled that far too much information is classified for the wrong reasons and that Americans' civil liberties are traded too cheaply for minimal and even nonexistent gains in security. Neither is wrong.

Use link for full story

Thoughtful, reasonable.

I personally am not making this an issue where I weigh awarding my trust between intel leaders and manning/snowden. They both actually stand to support my larger view....YOU CAN"T TRUST ANYONE, much less lots of people with a single source of that much sensitive data...especially when it is obvious we have leaks and leadership that'll lie to oversight ...period...end of story IMHO.
 

BGIF

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Analysis: Why Edward Snowden isn't a whistle-blower, legally speaking - U.S. News


By Pete Williams NBC News Justice Correspondent
6/18/13


This brief article claims there is no legal basis for Snowden to receive whistle-blower protection because of his job status.

The familiar whistle-blower laws apply to government employees who expose wrongdoing but NOT intelligence agencies contractor employees. They come under a different law, the Intelligence Community Whistle-blower Protection Act. Apparently that law covers areas such as illegal conduct, fraud, and waste. The data collection is legal under current congressional action and FISA.
 
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BobD

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If Snowden thought of himself as a "whistleblower", he'd still be in the US. Traitors run from justice, whistleblowers stand and fight for themselves.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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How do you guys feel about the fact that he talked to China's government about how we spy on them? He didn't just release basic info on domestic phone records to the US citizens, he openly discussed top secret cyber-attack methodology towards China specifically. Here is a comment that sums up what I mean:


Edward Snowden's leaks are a grave threat to US national security | John Bolton | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

Whether people realize it or not, we have been at cyber-war with China for a very long time. It's an arms race to find "back doors" into eachother's systems and Snowden showed them our hand. I linked an article below that goes into detail on this, so you can gain background on this topic if you please.

Opinion: Has U.S. started an Internet war? - CNN.com

Moral of the story, I haven't seen anything that pertains to justifying this part of the story. This man is a traitor to our country, imo. I hope he is extradited and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Anything John Bolton says is suspect as far as I am concerned. He has proven himself a liar time and time again. From WMD, before, and after, this guy has exhibited character flaws, and the perchance for lying when it suits him that few have attempted. Not even the Republican would push his confirmation for Bush.

Sorry, when this guy is one of one, that claims actual treason, I see him as part of the inevitable assassination process.

If Snowden thought of himself as a "whistleblower", he'd still be in the US. Traitors run from justice, whistleblowers stand and fight for themselves.

Can you not see Snowden as guilty of breaking a law but doing what he believed to be the moral thing? Of course it is too early to render any verdict. What if someone in the CIA had supported Joseph Wilson and stated on the record that the Bush Administration simply fabricated the whole WMD thing through Cheney's office with Scooter and Company, (which they did) and nearly 5,000 American lives had been spared with a half a million Iraqi lives and trillions of dollars not wasted? Would not that agent be both have been guilty of breaking the law and have acted the most moral manner?
 
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BobD

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Let's test the program:

To whom it may concern,

Yesterday my wife called to see if I needed anything at the store. I said yes, deodorant, bananas and some beer. When I got home there was no beer. She insists that I didn't mention beer, so if someone from the NSA could clear this up for me....... I'd like your program even more.

Thanks, BobD
 
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phgreek

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To whom it may concern,

Yesterday my wife called to see if I needed anything at the store. I said yes, deodorant, bananas and some beer. When I got home there was no beer. She insists that I didn't mention beer, so if someone from the NSA could clear this up for me....... I'd like your program even more.

Thanks, BobD

LMAO...kinda tarnished my foil hat a little...

don't be surprised if you get an answer though...:)
 
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Buster Bluth

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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/UfUi5C7WdrA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Ben Swann is one of the best journalists in the country. I hope he one day takes the role of Libertarian media representative away from the likes of Glenn Beck.
 

BGIF

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US charges NSA leaker Snowden with espionage - U.S. News

By Pete Williams NBC News

Federal prosecutors filed espionage charges against alleged National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden, officials familiar with the process said. Authorities have also begun the process of getting Snowden back to the United States to stand trial.

The charges were filed June 14 under seal in federal court in Alexandria, Va. -- and only disclosed Friday.
Snowden has been charged with three violations: theft of government property and two offenses under the espionage statutes, specifically giving national defense information to someone without a security clearance and revealing classified information about "communications intelligence."
 

WakeUpEchoes

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I'm wondering if it is unethical for me to pull up the complaint on my Westlaw account and put some of it on here so we can see it...where is Rhode Irish when I need him.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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I remained silent until now.

This all reminds me of a novel by Phillip F. O'Connor, a professor at BGSU when I knew him, called Defending Freedom.

I believe the novel was set in the 1950's in England, with an anti-aircraft unit. The premise was that a new (mega-expensive) sophisticated anti-aircraft system, (radar linked to a big gun), was developed and put into service. When tested, it failed miserably, after mega millions were spent on development by the contractor, and all the units were bought and paid for by the military.

Well where this became a novel was that the Army failed miserably for each unit that used it except one unit, (like five out of six companies.) This one unit's test scores were off the chart. They killed every target in testing.

Enter our hero, a second lieutenant, in charge of one of the gun batteries. He realized what his whole company, the one with the good results was doing was activating the safety, self-destruction charge in the target drones to make it look like they were getting hit in their open water, live target practice. For this unit, upon orders of the commander, shooting down a target was no more difficult than pushing a self destruct button, while the guns were firing.

You may ask what this novel from the '80's may have to do with NSA spying today.

1) There was no mechanism including the chain of command for the main character to report what he found.

2) When the lieutenant refused to drop his allegations, they courts martialed him.

3) The expensive highly technical system didn't work as advertised, (leading the reader to the obvious conclusion that mega-bucks were wasted on a bungle. Which would be mega-bucks we didn't have to waste.)

4) The Army assassinated the lieutenant's character to take the attention off of their own inept, immoral, and wasteful behavior.

I will bet the NSA Prism program doesn't work, any better than torture did. And the only hope these crooks in charge have is turning the American public like an angry crowd on an idiot that is no different than most of us.

Many Americans think these guys with the "keys to the kingdom" are harried hero's; but the problem is all those Americans watch too many movies. Too many movies of the wrong kind. The truth is, "Don't get caught in a moral quandary, and do the right thing. They will bury you, and all around you." No one can still accurately list the body count of operatives and informants in the field that were taken out because Valerie Plame was revealed for political purposes. And that is just one case we are lucky to know about.

And the other thing I haven't even heard anyone discuss is the premise that the Prism program isn't really about Terrorism. It is about spying, and corporate spying. Corporate spying in that much of what these organizations now do is farmed out to private companies. What could Prism be effective for? Showing contractors, and government officials that have relationships with foreign nationals, and showing agents who are attempting to steal technical secrets, when they contact their source governments.
 
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BobD

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Hmmmm, So you've remained silent till now, but started this thread? :)

He'll be given the chance to be a true whistleblower in prison.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Hmmmm, So you've remained silent till now, but started this thread? :)

He'll be given the chance to be a true whistleblower in prison.

Hmmm, I have remained silent about the attack on Snowden. Because, hmmm, I have made multiple posts on this thread. The closest I came to making a comment on Snowden's guilt or innocence, is when I called John Bolton a liar and a bull shiit artist of the highest order. Which I will stand by. In other words I was attacking Bolton on his extreme lack of positive character traits, while trying to remain silent as to any aspect about Snowden. Because I didn't have any information on Snowden, his motivations, etc. I still don't. Neither does anyone else. But like others I am being reactive. I think the weak sauce charges in US District Court are a ploy, because the usual character assassination isn't working well enough. Snowden hasn't gone away.

Now please note, I am not intending to speak for or against Snowden. Is he a douche canoe? I would have no idea. Is the gov't not of the people working by the book it wrote? Yes. Interestingly enough in this case I don't think that tells us as much about Snowden, as it does the program, and free flow of cash and power they are trying to protect. That is more a boondoggle than less, as usual. And I will bet it has done little to protect us as advertised.

As far as Snowden, we will just have to wait to see.
 

Fbolt

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A dacha by the Black Sea? Perhaps a life in Fidel's old villa? Of course his motives were - "pure". SMH at those who have supported this guy and still have a need for more information.

Treason. The longer this goes on the more you will see your error. This sounds more and more like a book from Cambridge Five.
 

enrico514

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A dacha by the Black Sea? Perhaps a life in Fidel's old villa? Of course his motives were - "pure". SMH at those who have supported this guy and still have a need for more information.

Treason. The longer this goes on the more you will see your error. This sounds more and more like a book from Cambridge Five.

I don't follow...
 
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Bogtrotter07

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I don't follow...

Me either.

Iceland is just as likely to be his destination.

And in time I think the whole point of Prism is to catch corporate and tech spies. People that try to steal the latest technology. I think catching bombing terrorists with Prism is a cover story designed to elicit support from the populace. If people only knew how much was being spent to protect the wealth of those in charge . . .
 

BobD

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A dacha by the Black Sea? Perhaps a life in Fidel's old villa? Of course his motives were - "pure". SMH at those who have supported this guy and still have a need for more information.

Treason. The longer this goes on the more you will see your error. This sounds more and more like a book from Cambridge Five.

I'm guessing the Russians or Chinese turned him a few years back. He's acting out the whistleblower role because a country aiding a supposed whistleblower is less volatile politically, than an outright double agent.

You think China or Russia are going to take the diplomatic heat for aiding him without seeing what secret info he had? Nope.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Here is the latest attached to that article:

16m ago

WikiLeaks has released a statement claiming that Snowden is "bound for Ecuador" and is awaiting the processing of his application for asylum:


Mr Edward Snowden, the American whistleblower who exposed evidence of a global surveillance regime conducted by US and UK intelligence agencies, has left Hong Kong legally. He is bound for the Republic of Ecuador via a safe route for the purposes of asylum, and is being escorted by diplomats and legal advisors from WikiLeaks.

Mr Snowden requested that WikiLeaks use its legal expertise and experience to secure his safety. Once Mr Snowden arrives in Ecuador his request will be formally processed.

Former Spanish Judge Mr Baltasar Garzon, legal director of Wikileaks and lawyer for Julian Assange has made the following statement:

"The WikiLeaks legal team and I are interested in preserving Mr Snowden’s rights and protecting him as a person. What is being done to Mr Snowden and to Mr Julian Assange - for making or facilitating disclosures in the public interest - is an assault against the people".

It appears that the extradition treaty with Ecuador includes only capital and otherwise violent crime, and does not include political crimes.

http://www.oas.org/juridico/mla/en/traites/en_traites-ext-usa-ecu.pdf

What I don't understand is where everyone was when Toshiba gave the Soviets and Chinese information about a process that made "silent" propellers for our subs, which made our subs possible to track for the first time, and allowed the communist countries to build more silent of subs than ever. This directly put our servicemen in harms way and there wasn't a harrumph! (Because we needed the TV's?) Yet there is no proof that ES gave anyone any secrets (other than what he felt we were doing illegally), and he has been convicted of espionage in the court of public opinion. Leads me to believe most peoples moral value lies between a nice TV and the sacrifices really necessary to maintain freedom.
 

BGIF

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A dacha by the sea, a cabana in Cuba, a villa in Venezuela ...

A dacha by the sea, a cabana in Cuba, a villa in Venezuela ...

Fbolt's comment doesn't seem out in leftfield but closer to home plate.

I'm getting visions of Monty Hall and Bill Cullen, "COMMON DOWN" ... "LET'S MAKE A DEAL!"

Can't wait for next Year's new reality show, "SNOWDEN KNOWS!"


Fugitive Snowden seeks asylum in Ecuador: foreign minister | Reuters

According to an Aeroflot source, Snowden will be leaving for Cuba within 24 hours. Then on to Venezuela.

Hmm, Hong Kong China, Moscow, Russia, Havana, Cuba, and Caracas, Venezuela all countries that are bastions of democracy and the free press. I'm sure any hospitality shown at those stops will be purely altruistic in keeping with their history.


If the networks don't pick up "SNOWDEN KNOWS" a cable station is a possibility for a "Travels with Che Tour". (Sorry, "The Ed Show" was already taken.)
 
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Bogtrotter07

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So far Snowden has moved from Hong Kong to Moscow. And upon landing in Moscow, moved to the Ecuadorian Embassy. That sure does sound suspicious! Honestly, if I did something like this, I wish I were that smart. I am sure that Wikileaks and Snowden are making it as difficult as possible to get an extraction team or an assassination squad close to him. This kind of logistical arrangement has been in the works for a while.
 

BobD

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Today, tomorrow or thirteen years from now, we'll get him.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Today, tomorrow or thirteen years from now, we'll get him.

I am curious:

A) What dos "we" as in "we'll" mean?

B) What does "get" mean?

C) Why 13 years?

D) Do you work for the CIA, NSA, StateDept, or national security apparatus?

E) Or are you Barak Obama?
 
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Buster Bluth

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So far Snowden has moved from Hong Kong to Moscow. And upon landing in Moscow, moved to the Ecuadorian Embassy. That sure does sound suspicious! Honestly, if I did something like this, I wish I were that smart. I am sure that Wikileaks and Snowden are making it as difficult as possible to get an extraction team or an assassination squad close to him. This kind of logistical arrangement has been in the works for a while.

A plane flight?

Snowden knows that any commercial flight will have him arrested by the US almost immediately. He had to take a flight from someone who wasn't going to hand him over to the US, those options are limited.
 

BobD

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I am curious: THAT'S MY LINE!

A) What dos "we" as in "we'll" mean? UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

B) What does "get" mean? AQUIRE, HAVE, HOLD

C) Why 13 years? TODAY, TOMORROW OR 13 YEARS

D) Do you work for the CIA, NSA, StateDept, or national security apparatus? I'M AN ENTHUSIASTIC SUPPORTER.

E) Or are you Barak Obama? NO

Whatever he had access to is now considered compromised. He's toast, eventually. It's really sad to hear folks support his actions as they hurt a very good program that was helping to save lives. America is becoming a laughingstock because some of our citizens are willing to do and or support their own demise. If he had any real sense of patriotism he would have stayed here in the US no matter the consequences. He's doing this for him, not anyone else.
 
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